Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?

[Hartzilla2007]

Christopher, automotive mechanics should be taught in today's schools. I come from the UK where almost everybody who drives tops up their own oil (we don't have an entire dedicated industry to change oil every 3k miles because people are too lazy or incompetent to do it themselves). Learning how to make simple repairs should be taught, as it makes people far more independent.

But we're not talking about simple repairs here. We're talking about something far, far more involved. The proposition was that any idiot in the 23rd century would be given enough computer instruction to be capable of hacking a program designed by Mr. Spock. I think that's an absurd proposition. Yes, I'm sure basic programming skills are taught as part of the ordinary curriculum in Kirk's time, but that's a far cry from being able to outprogram an A7-rated computer expert. That's not changing the oil, that's rebuilding the entire drive assembly.

I think the idea is that computers are so intelligent that you can tell them: "Computer, hack this program to do this and that." and all the computer needs to ask for is an authorization code.

I know it's from TNG and not TOS, but Geordi created an artificial intelligence by simply asking the computer to create an opponent that matches Data's abilities.

Well their are examples that computers from TOS could not do that.

1) There were only a few people on the ship that had the know how to alter the ships records in Courtmartial.

2) They made a big deal about Spock's A7 rating.

And one final thing from NuTrek.

If all Kirk had to do was ask a computer to hack the test why the hell was Spock so suprised that his program was hacked when it was according to you child's play? They made it sound like some pretty impressive hacking in the movie.

Plus lets face it when you think about it the computer being able to create an artificial intelligence just by telling the computer to an opponent that matches Data's abilities is really stupid much like being able to solve most problems just by fiddling with the deflector dish, I mean THAT'S all it took? And wouldn't Starfleet put in some safeguards to keep stuff like that from happening considering that it could be dangerous to be able to create AI all willy nilly like that?

 

[JarodRussell]

But we're not talking about simple repairs here. We're talking about something far, far more involved. The proposition was that any idiot in the 23rd century would be given enough computer instruction to be capable of hacking a program designed by Mr. Spock. I think that's an absurd proposition. Yes, I'm sure basic programming skills are taught as part of the ordinary curriculum in Kirk's time, but that's a far cry from being able to outprogram an A7-rated computer expert. That's not changing the oil, that's rebuilding the entire drive assembly.

I think the idea is that computers are so intelligent that you can tell them: "Computer, hack this program to do this and that." and all the computer needs to ask for is an authorization code.

I know it's from TNG and not TOS, but Geordi created an artificial intelligence by simply asking the computer to create an opponent that matches Data's abilities.

Well their are examples that computers from TOS could not do that.

1) There were only a few people on the ship that had the know how to alter the ships records in Courtmartial.

2) They made a big deal about Spock's A7 rating.

And one final thing from NuTrek.

If all Kirk had to do was ask a computer to hack the test why the hell was Spock so suprised that his program was hacked when it was according to you child's play? They made it sound like some pretty impressive hacking in the movie.

Yet this is a vision of computer technology from the 1960s, not from the 2010s. Computers today are capable of more things than the computers depicted in TOS.

And Spock being surprised about the hack tells us nothing about the complexity. And they seem to have found the hack pretty soon, since it appears there's only like an hour difference between the simulation and the official hearing in which they already knew that Kirk indeed did something to the programm. Unless they were accusing him without having any evidence, but that would be very un-Trek of them.

 

[David cgc]

Can you think of another reason besides cheating the simulation would not only become winnable, and insultingly so at that, and for Kirk to have acted as though he knew it would be in advance?

 

[Arpy]

No they shouldn't because it'd alter the intent of both the original universe and the new one, sullying both, and bringing the narrative to a halt as the reader registers the writer's attempt at cleverness to explain the obvious.

I prefer to indulge the infinite diversity in infinite combination of the multiverse.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I think the idea is that computers are so intelligent that you can tell them: "Computer, hack this program to do this and that." and all the computer needs to ask for is an authorization code.

I know it's from TNG and not TOS, but Geordi created an artificial intelligence by simply asking the computer to create an opponent that matches Data's abilities.

Well their are examples that computers from TOS could not do that.

1) There were only a few people on the ship that had the know how to alter the ships records in Courtmartial.

2) They made a big deal about Spock's A7 rating.

And one final thing from NuTrek.

If all Kirk had to do was ask a computer to hack the test why the hell was Spock so suprised that his program was hacked when it was according to you child's play? They made it sound like some pretty impressive hacking in the movie.

Yet this is a vision of computer technology from the 1960s, not from the 2010s. Computers today are capable of more things than the computers depicted in TOS.

Computers today can allow anybody regardless of skill to alter records and hide these alterations so nobody is the wiser? If this is the case why do hackers have to have very good computer skills to hack stuff?

And Spock being surprised about the hack tells us nothing about the complexity. And they seem to have found the hack pretty soon, since it appears there's only like an hour difference between the simulation and the official hearing in which they already knew that Kirk indeed did something to the programm. Unless they were accusing him without having any evidence, but that would be very un-Trek of them.

Gee could it be that Kirk was being pretty damned obvious about it added to the fact that the computers just happened to glitch while he was taking the test and this glitch let him win?

 

[JarodRussell]

Yet this is a vision of computer technology from the 1960s, not from the 2010s. Computers today are capable of more things than the computers depicted in TOS.

Computers today can allow anybody regardless of skill to alter records and hide these alterations so nobody is the wiser? If this is the case why do hackers have to have very good computer skills to hack stuff?[/QUOTE]

No, read my post again.

And Spock being surprised about the hack tells us nothing about the complexity. And they seem to have found the hack pretty soon, since it appears there's only like an hour difference between the simulation and the official hearing in which they already knew that Kirk indeed did something to the programm. Unless they were accusing him without having any evidence, but that would be very un-Trek of them.

Gee could it be that Kirk was being pretty damned obvious about it added to the fact that the computers just happened to glitch while he was taking the test and this glitch let him win?

You are innocent until proven guilty. They acted like they had clear evidence that Kirk manipulated the simulation, not like they just speculated he did it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yet this is a vision of computer technology from the 1960s, not from the 2010s. Computers today are capable of more things than the computers depicted in TOS.

Computers today can allow anybody regardless of skill to alter records and hide these alterations so nobody is the wiser? If this is the case why do hackers have to have very good computer skills to hack stuff?

No, read my post again.

Okay in that case, since when can computers today look up information just by asking them to?

And Spock being surprised about the hack tells us nothing about the complexity. And they seem to have found the hack pretty soon, since it appears there's only like an hour difference between the simulation and the official hearing in which they already knew that Kirk indeed did something to the programm. Unless they were accusing him without having any evidence, but that would be very un-Trek of them.

Gee could it be that Kirk was being pretty damned obvious about it added to the fact that the computers just happened to glitch while he was taking the test and this glitch let him win?

You are innocent until proven guilty. They acted like they had clear evidence that Kirk manipulated the simulation, not like they just speculated he did it.

They did, they found the subroutine they just didn't know how Kirk got the thing passed their security, because not just anyone can hack high level security firewalls and such and No I do not believe Stafleet is as lax about computer security as the Pentagon is.

 

[Christopher]

This is a very strange argument. Captain Pike said outright that Kirk was "genius-level." Moreover, the film showed him completing an extremely demanding four-year academic program in only three years. So why is it necessary to concoct all these convoluted arguments that he didn't have to be brilliant to break the simulation? They told us outright that he is brilliant.

And why wouldn't he be? Despite the timeline alteration, this is genetically the exact same individual as Kirk Prime. And since the timelines didn't diverge until very shortly before his birth, the conditions of his gestation would've been essentially identical too. Therefore he would have the same intellectual potential as Kirk Prime. And we know Kirk Prime was highly intelligent. He routinely beat Spock at chess, he was highly literate and well-educated, he was an extremely imaginative problem-solver, and he could give MacGyver a run for his money when it came to inventing weapons on the fly. True, Kirk-Alt (Kirk Pine?) had a different upbringing, less disciplined and bookish, but still managed to test out at genius level.

So what difference does it make how the computers work in the future? They told us he was a genius. They showed us he was smart enough to complete a four-year curriculum in three years. Even if future computers were absurdly easy to hack, it wouldn't change those facts.

 

[kkozoriz1]

They also showed us a third year cadet becoming Captain without passing through any of the other ranks.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They also showed us a third year cadet becoming Captain without passing through any of the other ranks.

Which relates to Kirk's intelligence and aptitude with computers how?

 

[Christopher]

They also showed us a third year cadet becoming Captain without passing through any of the other ranks.

Actually I gather there's a graphic in the film that establishes his rank as lieutenant, and the novelization establishes that as well, I believe. Which is consistent with TWOK, where Saavik was a lieutenant when she took the Kobayashi Maru simulation. Since Saavik was a graduate mere weeks later in TSFS (since her turtleneck changed from cadet red to command white), it follows that the KM simulation is for seniors nearing graduation. So even though Kirk was in his third year chronologically, he must have been a senior academically.

That means that Alt-Kirk, at the age of 25, was a lieutenant who rose to command of a starship when the captain and first officer were incapacitated and was then allowed to keep that command thereafter. Let's see, who else does that remind me of? Ah, yes, Jean-Luc Picard. He was 28 at the time, and the command officers were killed, but aside from that it's the same situation.

 

[BillJ]

That means that Alt-Kirk, at the age of 25, was a lieutenant who rose to command of a starship when the captain and first officer were incapacitated and was then allowed to keep that command thereafter. Let's see, who else does that remind me of? Ah, yes, Jean-Luc Picard. He was 28 at the time, and the command officers were killed, but aside from that it's the same situation.

Let's see, Picard graduates at 21 or 22 years of age and takes command of an older deep space explorer at 28 when the captain is killed. So he had been serving as a field officer for six or seven years when he took command of the Stargazer.

NuKirk hasn't even graduated the Academy when given a field promotion to captain and then a permanent promotion (of the flagship), even though he is 25.

You're right... exactly the same situation

 

[Christopher]

^I didn't say it was exactly the same. I said it was precedent.

Like it or not, this film is part of Star Trek now. Yes, it has credibility issues, but we're talking about a universe that's given us a planet of gangsters and a giant space amoeba and a half-human, half-alien science officer who has literally come back from the dead. Not to mention a wealth of earlier contradictions throughout the canon. And we've either found ways to rationalize them all or we've just glossed over them and pretended it all made sense. Sure, people resist the new thing when it comes along, just as they always have. But then they get used to it and start complaining about the next new thing. This movie isn't going away. It's part of the whole now. And as with everything before it, there are ways to rationalize its credibility issues if one is willing to make the effort. Or those issues can just be ignored by people who enjoy it as a story.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

So you are asking the people who can justify O'Brien's many changing ranks to a planet full of Romans to accept this new movie? That's alot to ask of them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

a permanent promotion (of the flagship), even though he is 25.

We are told he is a relief captain for the seemingly wheelchair-bound Admiral Pike. That doesn't necessarily mean he's in a permanent promotions position at that level. Nor does it mean Pike definitely won't stay on board to "supervise".

I'm reminded a little of "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea", where Admiral Nelson was on the sub as was Captain Crane. Who knows what's planned for Pike in the next film. Originally many of us assumed he wouldn't survive the first film.

 

[ST-One]

Re: Charting the Novel-verse

IMO The Good That Men Do is a prime example of why authors should leave well alone. They took a bad episode and made an even more nonsensical mess of it.

I couldn't agree more.
That book was spectacularly bad.

 

[BillJ]

^I didn't say it was exactly the same. I said it was precedent.

Like it or not, this film is part of Star Trek now. Yes, it has credibility issues, but we're talking about a universe that's given us a planet of gangsters and a giant space amoeba and a half-human, half-alien science officer who has literally come back from the dead. Not to mention a wealth of earlier contradictions throughout the canon. And we've either found ways to rationalize them all or we've just glossed over them and pretended it all made sense. Sure, people resist the new thing when it comes along, just as they always have. But then they get used to it and start complaining about the next new thing. This movie isn't going away. It's part of the whole now. And as with everything before it, there are ways to rationalize its credibility issues if one is willing to make the effort. Or those issues can just be ignored by people who enjoy it as a story.

I'm actually lukewarm to the new film. Don't exactly love it... nor hate it.

But where Picard and NuKirk are at in their respective careers when they achieve command of their particular ships are as different as the ships themselves.

I'm just of the opinion that they should have thought out where Kirk was at when taking command of the Enterprise. Because other options did exist.

 

[Christopher]

^Oh, I agree. I would've much preferred it if there had been a four-year gap between the Kobayashi Maru scenes and the attack on Vulcan, enough time for Kirk to gain some rank and seasoning and make his promotion to first officer remotely credible. I don't think that would've materially altered the storyline. But I can understand why the decision was made, because the modern culture of Hollywood feature films demands relentless pacing. It's hard to find any motion picture today that doesn't sacrifice logic and clarity to that insane obsession with pacing, that inexplicable terror of slowing down for even a moment. (I mean, it's not like the audience in a movie theater is going to change the channel. They've chosen to drive to the theater and pay an extravagant amount of money to see the film, so that's an investment they're not casually going to give up on just because things slow down for a moment. But Hollywood execs clearly don't see it that way.) Since it's an endemic fault of the movie industry today (which is a hell of a mess for a variety of reasons), I'm able to forgive this specific film for being unable to transcend those pressures. And since there is the precedent of Picard's promotion, that helps me to rationalize what was presented in the film, even though I wish it had been presented differently.

Besides, I would've preferred it if there hadn't been something as insanely magical as the Genesis Device in TWOK and TSFS, or if TVH hadn't been so careless about temporal integrity, or if TUC's plot hadn't been predicated on the assertion that the Klingons wouldn't even search their prisoners or remove their clothing and that they could somehow fail to spot a hidden transmitter powerful enough to be detectable from parsecs away, or if NEM hadn't revolved around yet another Particle of the Week as its primary threat. There are always things to complain about in Trek movies, and in Trek shows, but we still accept them as canonical.

 

[kkozoriz1]

A large part of the problem with NuKirk is that, unlike the particle of the week or the viridium patch from TUC, is that NuKirk won't go away by the next installment. We now have a captain who got to the center seat, not due to hard work and intelligence, but due to luck. He wasn't supposed to be onboard. He happened to hear someone refer to the lightning storm in space. He doesn't deserve to command because he hasn't earned it. It was given to him as a reward. Who else from the ship got a promotion of even one step in rank?

If you want to get into insanely magical devices let's start with warp drive. Toss in the transporter. There's many others. But, the characters are what matter the most. Kirk from the prime universe was a rule breaker as well but he was also disciplined, charming and open to new ideas and the value of others contributions. NuKirk is none of those. He's a hothead who was told by Pike that he was special and bought into it. The rules don't apply to him. TOS Kirk knew when to follow orders and when to break them. NuKirk doesn't think they apply to him at all. And why should he?

 

[RookieBatman]

If you want to get into insanely magical devices let's start with warp drive. Toss in the transporter. There's many others. But, the characters are what matter the most. Kirk from the prime universe was a rule breaker as well but he was also disciplined, charming and open to new ideas and the value of others contributions. NuKirk is none of those. He's a hothead who was told by Pike that he was special and bought into it. The rules don't apply to him. TOS Kirk knew when to follow orders and when to break them. NuKirk doesn't think they apply to him at all. And why should he?

I've made some of those points myself, but don't forget that it's all subjective, based on our perceptions and viewpoints. But I think it's safe to say that for the vast majority of viewers, those who liked nuKirk and nuSpock liked the movie, and those who didn't appreciate their depictions also didn't enjoy the movie. I think Christopher's said it before (maybe in this very thread), just as you said; the characters are what matter most, more than all the silly plot quirks. I think that, ultimately, you and I will just have to accept that the majority of viewers did find something to like in those characters. Whether that's bad for the franchise or not (also subjective) remains to be seen, but for now, I guess this is just the way it is.

I try to be optimistic. ST12 could be set years later, after Kirk's gotten some real experience and a little more good sense, and then he could be more like the heroic and dynamic character we all know and love. (And hey, if we're really dreaming, he might actually wear yellow.)