"The Naked Now" James T. Kirk announcement

[Christopher]

But also to be fair, Kirk's crew saved the galaxy's ass on numerous occasions.

Why SHOULDN'T people respect the guy a little?

Yeah, but was he the only Starfleet captain that ever did anything heroic? For all we know, while Kirk was playing gangster on Iotia or seducing drill thralls on Triskelion, Commodore Wesley was saving Tellar from a giant space paramecium or Captain Takahashi was convincing an alien armada to take up Zen gardening instead of annihilating Alpha Centauri. There could be plenty of 23rd-century Starfleet captains who are famous for their exploits, with Kirk being seen as just one of a whole heroic breed. Because we watched a show that focused exclusively on his ship, we got a biased view of what was going on in and around the Federation. We may be missing the whole story.

Although, Christopher is quite correct, for the FIRST spinoff, the second episode was way way way too early to mention anything TOS-wise.

Just to clarify, I wasn't stating my personal opinion, I was reporting on a sentiment that I recall to have been commonly expressed at the time. Personally, I didn't have as much of a problem with "The Naked Now" as a lot of people did, seeing it more as a sequel/homage than the "remake" it was widely accused of being. I could understand the criticisms that it was too soon, but I thought it was a good way to delve into the new characters by removing their inhibitions. In retrospect, though, it does come off as rather too similar to the original.

 

[Kirk1980]

Sorry to misappropriate thoughts to you, Christopher!

That is a fair point about the other captains. Although, if we bring in some non-canonical sources (I forget where...Mr. Scott's Guide, I think [and yes, I know that whole thing is a whole chronological mess but some of the points COULD remain]), Enterprise was supposed to be the ONLY starship of the 12 to complete her mission which is why Kirk and Co. got legend status.

Hell, (and yes, I know this was more a real-world decision than the Federation type decision) ALL of Starfleet now wears the Enterprise delta ship insignia. The Enterprise and her crew were honored even BEFORE TNG aired!

 

[Christopher]

Although, if we bring in some non-canonical sources (I forget where...Mr. Scott's Guide, I think [and yes, I know that whole thing is a whole chronological mess but some of the points COULD remain]), Enterprise was supposed to be the ONLY starship of the 12 to complete her mission which is why Kirk and Co. got legend status.

Actually that idea was introduced by Gene Roddenberry in his novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and I never cared for it. I think it's too fannish to assume that Kirk and the Enterprise had to be as uniquely valued in his own reality as he is among ST fans in our reality.

Hell, (and yes, I know this was more a real-world decision than the Federation type decision) ALL of Starfleet now wears the Enterprise delta ship insignia. The Enterprise and her crew were honored even BEFORE TNG aired!

Sorry, but that's a fan theory that never really held water, because "Court-martial" already showed non-Enterprise personnel wearing the "arrowhead" insignia. And VGR: "Friendship One" conclusively blew it away by establishing the arrowhead as a UESPA emblem antedating 2067. (The new movie reinforces this by showing it in use as the Kelvin insignia in 2233 at the moment of the timeline divergence, meaning it was canonically in use before that date in the Prime timeline.) So it was never specific to the Enterprise in the first place.

 

[Kirk1980]

Fan theory? Really, I thought all the encyclopedia sources listed it as the Enterprise symbol.

 

[SpyOne]

But also to be fair, Kirk's crew saved the galaxy's ass on numerous occasions.

Why SHOULDN'T people respect the guy a little?

My favorite TOS shout-out came near the end of Voyager, of all things. (On balance, I am not Voyager's biggest fan).
It was a comment that Janeway's accolades (once Voyager got home) would include having made First Contact with more races than any Captain since Kirk.

I liked that quite a bit. Kirk fought the Romulans twice, the Klingons a few times, destroyed the doomsday machine and a cloud monster, saved the Federation from V'Ger and the Whalesong Probe, negotiated a historic peace with the Klingons, .... and what he's remembered for is his scientific/diplomatic achievements.
Seems very fitting for the TNG Starfleet.

 

[T'Girl]

Fan theory? Really, I thought all the encyclopedia sources listed it as the Enterprise symbol.

No. An argument can be made for the symbol to be only used in "The Fleet," instead of Starfleet wide however. Commodores and Admirals had there own unique symbols, (their "flags"?), the JAG corp a separate one and the guys who delivered Charlie Evens (merchant marines?).

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Although, if we bring in some non-canonical sources (I forget where...Mr. Scott's Guide, I think [and yes, I know that whole thing is a whole chronological mess but some of the points COULD remain]), Enterprise was supposed to be the ONLY starship of the 12 to complete her mission which is why Kirk and Co. got legend status.

Actually that idea was introduced by Gene Roddenberry in his novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and I never cared for it. I think it's too fannish to assume that Kirk and the Enterprise had to be as uniquely valued in his own reality as he is among ST fans in our reality.

I agree with this....

Hell, (and yes, I know this was more a real-world decision than the Federation type decision) ALL of Starfleet now wears the Enterprise delta ship insignia. The Enterprise and her crew were honored even BEFORE TNG aired!

Sorry, but that's a fan theory that never really held water, because "Court-martial" already showed non-Enterprise personnel wearing the "arrowhead" insignia. And VGR: "Friendship One" conclusively blew it away by establishing the arrowhead as a UESPA emblem antedating 2067. (The new movie reinforces this by showing it in use as the Kelvin insignia in 2233 at the moment of the timeline divergence, meaning it was canonically in use before that date in the Prime timeline.) So it was never specific to the Enterprise in the first place.

I personally thought it was pretty cool that we saw different insignia for starbases, and other Starfleet vessels....(It made the universe a bit more larger, and--how should I say it--gave more significance to various stations)...

 

[Timo]

...I guess the interesting question is whether those different insignia might still be in use during the TOS movies. After all, if we go by the theory that each design would relate to a specific subsection of the wider Starfleet (say, to a specific Fleet), then we might speculate that all the ships and installations in the movies came from the same subsection (say, the 1st Fleet).

That is, we could argue that the 1st Fleet would often be operating near Earth (and that Kirk's mission in TOS would be exceptional for a 1st Fleet vessel), and that this prestigious Fleet would be basing its unit insignia on the general design of Starfleet, while the insignia of less prestigious Fleets would diverge more. By the time of the TOS movies, there might be some sort of standardizing going on - perhaps the disbanding of the other Fleets in a grand unification project of some sort - and eventually everybody would revert to the general Starfleet symbol. But I guess we could still insert Fleet-specific symbols to the TOS movie era for that bit of extra spicing, without really contradicting anything.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[caisson2delta]

I didn't see this episode, or any of the first three and half seasons, in first run. It was years later when I finally saw it, so the nod to TOS crew, and the mention of Kirk, wasn't a big deal to me. I can see how it might have been too soon, watching it in first run.

In regards to Picard and the crew not being so knowledgeable of these events, why would they have to be? I am certain they knew the basic history of the ship, it's crew, and her major achievements. The particular mission might not have been considered all that eventful or worth any mention of worth for general knowledge. For all we know, certain missions and ships logs could have been sealed for reasons that only the SF bigwigs or intelligence of their era may only have been privy to.

 

[Christopher]

Fan theory? Really, I thought all the encyclopedia sources listed it as the Enterprise symbol.

Well, a lot of what's in the published reference works is conjecture. And even stuff that was part of the original series bible is only conjecture unless it makes it onscreen. For instance, the TNG series bible originally claimed that Data was built by an unknown race of advanced aliens and that he was such a perfect replica of a human that only a detailed medical examination would reveal he wasn't. So regardless of the source, if something isn't stated onscreen, it can't be treated as "fact."

Besides, it's a moot distinction now. Maybe before "Friendship One," it could've been validly argued that it was "originally" the Enterprise insignia if one either ignored or rationalized away its broader use in "Court-martial." But after "Friendship One" and the new movie, it's now undeniable that the arrowhead was in use by UESPA 200 years before TOS and by the starship Kelvin over 30 years before TOS. So the conjecture that it started as the Enterprise insignia and was adopted to honor that specific ship is now totally obsolete.

 

[Timo]

In regards to Picard and the crew not being so knowledgeable of these events, why would they have to be? I am certain they knew the basic history of the ship, it's crew, and her major achievements. The particular mission might not have been considered all that eventful or worth any mention of worth for general knowledge.

Actually, it's downright amazing that Riker has read this "showering with clothes on, in connection with something vaguely similar to our current dilemma" mission log and remembers about it. How many missions has Starfleet performed between the two naked episodes? Thousands? Millions? And how many before Kirk's? Even logs limited to ships named Enterprise must be legion, each with hundreds if not thousands of mission entries. And yet Riker happened to read about this particular one...

None of the TNG heroes indicates they wouldn't know about Kirk or the earlier Enterprise, in this episode or others. None of them ever indicates Kirk would have been a crucially important kingpin in the unfolding of human history, either. "The Naked Now" treads middle ground there, with Picard reading aloud "Constitution class Enterprise, with James T. Kirk commanding, aha, hmm" while showing no particular recognition in his voice, yet no indication of surprise or novelty, either. IMHO a perfect way to establish that Kirk was just doing a job, and that Picard is doing the same job a century later, with the same seriousness and professionalism and with none of that gosh-and-wow factor some other people might associate with being a space adventurer.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SpyOne]

Besides, it's a moot distinction now. Maybe before "Friendship One," it could've been validly argued that it was "originally" the Enterprise insignia if one either ignored or rationalized away its broader use in "Court-martial." But after "Friendship One" and the new movie, it's now undeniable that the arrowhead was in use by UESPA 200 years before TOS and by the starship Kelvin over 30 years before TOS. So the conjecture that it started as the Enterprise insignia and was adopted to honor that specific ship is now totally obsolete.

I grant Friendship One, but nothing in Trek2009 can be used as an arguement for or against something in the canon of the Prime universe. There are just too many things that are different, and cannot be explained by alterations made by time travel.

Trek2009 is a second take on the same story. That JJ Abrams thought the swoosh insignia should be used on the Kelvin, 20 years before the Enterprise, is no indication of where the symbol might have been used in the Prime universe.

 

[Praxius]

No, that was just because it wasn't going to be a five-year mission and they needed another word in place of "five-year" to get the rhythm right. After all, it's a different ship, so its mission isn't a continuation of some other ship's mission.

Then why is the rest of the speech "Seek out new life, etc." still the exact same, and why bother to call it the Enterprise in the first place?

I understand the aspect of not limiting themselves to a 5 year term like TOS, but if they were not "Continuing" their mission as before, why not just say "Our Mission...." or "The Mission...." ~ Why "Our Continuing Mission...."?

True, but the objection at the time was that it was brought in too soon. It's easy to look back from 23 years later and say it was fine, but at a time when this new cast was still trying to prove itself to audiences, to climb out from under the long shadow cast by the original crew, it was seen as a misstep to call attention to the old crew so early in the game.

Well I never got into ST:TNG until the early 90's, so I missed out on the original impact, thus all I have to go by is the looking back now. Even still, I'm trying to visualize it, but find it difficult to see why this short little quip about the original crew was such a big deal. I could see it being a real issue if they spent 5-10 minutes talking about the old crew and ship, but it was more or less just a couple-second review on past information they were involved in and treated like such, ie: Data's generic explanation.

But I guess it's up to each person's interpretation, like a song's meaning.

And really, TNG did have trouble distinguishing itself from TOS early on, perhaps because it had some of the same writers and producers early on. The Q plot in the pilot was a rehash of super-advanced TOS aliens like Trelane and the Organians, the second episode was a blatant remake of "The Naked Time," the third episode ("Code of Honor") culminated in a combat scene that was widely regarded as an "Amok Time" rehash, and so on. It took them a while to establish a distinctive voice.

Agreed, the episode itself was obviously a hack of a TOS episode, and much of those other episodes you mentioned are also probably why I find the first season a chore to watch through, because there really isn't much new to attract a viewer into the overall story. With the over-dramatized background music and acting, re-hashed stories, etc..... it didn't really feel like they were moving towards the next generation for a while.

But in particular of the comments about mentioning the old enterprise and kirk, in my personal view, because it was an obvious re-hash of an old TOS Episode, them not mentioning the old crew and ship in the episode would have been the odd thing to do, because to me, it acknowledges to the audience that yes, indeed this is from the old show and they're sorta noting credit to them, rather then continuing through the episode acting like it never was done before.... since I never got into TOS when I was younger, I probably wouldn't have known that it was from an old TOS episode, and thus, I probably would never have been interested in seeing that TOS episode later on, or more in particular, the new viewer of the show may not be interested (or simply unknown) of the original episode.

Viewers and fans of the original series might have seen the name drop as one thing.... but some/many newer viewers would see it differently.

Other way around, really. The Maquis were created as backstory for VGR, and seeded in TNG and DS9 to set up the new spinoff. Though it can be hard to realize that considering that DS9 made better use of the Maquis concept than VGR itself did.

Well I'm aware of this, as they did the same thing with the Cardassians and Bajorans in TNG to DS9.... much like the Borg in TNG spinning off into Voyager. Regardless of which episode used them the most, where we first heard mention of such races/species/incidences/places are as I said before..... ie: they're tied to one another, due to what you described above. Whether you feel one series used one or more of the above as backstory to lead up to another series doesn't disqualify my claim of each series's connection to one another.

 

[Christopher]

I grant Friendship One, but nothing in Trek2009 can be used as an arguement for or against something in the canon of the Prime universe. There are just too many things that are different, and cannot be explained by alterations made by time travel.

At the time TMP came out, there were fans who said it was too different to be accepted as part of the same reality as TOS. At the time TNG came out, there were fans who said it was too different to be accepted as part of the same reality as TOS and the movies. There have always been sizeable differences between Trek productions, differences due to creative interpretation and artistic license, and some fans have been unwilling to accept the intent that the productions were set in the same continuity, but over time those have become minority views that can generally be disregarded. There's no reason to doubt the same thing will happen in this case.

As for myself, I have no more trouble accepting ST 2009 as part of the same overall reality as the rest of ST than I have accepting TAS, TMP, TNG, or anything else as part of it. And plenty of other people agree with me. So it is certainly not impossible to reconcile them.

Trek2009 is a second take on the same story. That JJ Abrams thought the swoosh insignia should be used on the Kelvin, 20 years before the Enterprise, is no indication of where the symbol might have been used in the Prime universe.

Which is a moot argument anyway because of "Court-martial" and "Friendship One."

And Abrams thought the same thing everyone else who's ever made a Trek production since 1979 has thought: that this is a work of fiction and it makes more sense to base the decision on audience recognition than on some obscure detail of uniform design that only a tiny minority of detail-obsessed fans would even notice. I'm sure if Gene Roddenberry himself had done a TOS prequel, he would've made the same decision to use the arrowhead insiginia universally because of its value as a recognizable brand or logo for the franchise (never forget that this is a business). He never hesitated to rewrite Trek history (for instance, after TMP he told fans to assume that Klingons had always had ridges), because he understood it was a work of fiction and that any ongoing work of series fiction is a work in progress, its details subject to refinement. Which is just one of the reasons why it's naive to argue that differences in detail make it impossible for two Trek productions to be in the same continuity.

No, that was just because it wasn't going to be a five-year mission and they needed another word in place of "five-year" to get the rhythm right. After all, it's a different ship, so its mission isn't a continuation of some other ship's mission.

Then why is the rest of the speech "Seek out new life, etc." still the exact same, and why bother to call it the Enterprise in the first place?

I don't understand the question. Again, it's a matter of audience recognition. This was a new Star Trek, and that was the world-famous opening narration to Star Trek. Why wouldn't they use it?

Besides, they made essentially the same change in TWOK, replacing "five-year" with "ongoing."

I understand the aspect of not limiting themselves to a 5 year term like TOS, but if they were not "Continuing" their mission as before, why not just say "Our Mission...." or "The Mission...." ~ Why "Our Continuing Mission...."?

As I said, because that would throw off the rhythm. Also, your definition of "continuing" is oddly narrow. It's continuing in the sense that it will continue in the future. It means the same as "ongoing."

Even still, I'm trying to visualize it, but find it difficult to see why this short little quip about the original crew was such a big deal. I could see it being a real issue if they spent 5-10 minutes talking about the old crew and ship, but it was more or less just a couple-second review on past information they were involved in and treated like such, ie: Data's generic explanation.

If it had come halfway through the season, or at the start of the second, then it wouldn't have been. But this was the first episode after the pilot, and not only did they directly reference a TOS episode, but they did a whole episode that was not merely a sequel but effectively a remake of that TOS episode. The in-story reference to Kirk was just the cherry on top. The whole episode was seen as far too derivative at a time when this untried series needed to prove itself as something separate from TOS and worthy of attention in its own right.

Other way around, really. The Maquis were created as backstory for VGR, and seeded in TNG and DS9 to set up the new spinoff. Though it can be hard to realize that considering that DS9 made better use of the Maquis concept than VGR itself did.

Well I'm aware of this, as they did the same thing with the Cardassians and Bajorans in TNG to DS9.... much like the Borg in TNG spinning off into Voyager.

I don't think you get my point. The Cardassians, Bajorans, and Borg (and Trill, Ferengi, etc.) were created for the individual TNG episodes they appeared in, and only later repurposed for DS9 and VGR. But the whole concept of the demilitarized zone and the Maquis was created as part of the development process for VGR, in order to generate a situation where there would be two conflicting groups making up the stranded crew. It was specifically intended to set up that show, and it got retrofitted into TNG and DS9 in order to build up the groundwork for VGR. And then DS9 continued to use it thereafter, ironically with more success than VGR did. (Really, it was a mistake to set up this whole Alpha Quadrant-based backstory for a show that was set in the Delta Quadrant. They set up this whole foundation for conflict and then immediately rendered it moot.)

Whether you feel one series used one or more of the above as backstory to lead up to another series doesn't disqualify my claim of each series's connection to one another.

My "feelings" have nothing to do with it. This is simply a fact. Reality is shaped by facts, not feelings. And I wasn't attempting to "disqualify" any claim, merely to point out that you chose an example that worked against your intent. If their intent had been to have no connection between series, then VGR would've been the only series that did mention the Badlands or the Maquis.

 

[T'Girl]

[Actually, it's downright amazing that Riker has read this "showering with clothes on, in connection with something vaguely similar to our current dilemma" mission log and remembers about it. How many missions has Starfleet performed between the two naked episodes? Thousands? Millions?

Besides Naked Time and Naked Now, the aliment, (or a variation of it) may have struck the Federation many times at intervals through the years. This particular ailment might have a psychological component which manifests itself in compulsive behavior, one such compulsion being showering fully clothed. When it strikes a group, one member (or more) of the group would inevitable take such a shower.

But after "Friendship One" and the new movie, it's now undeniable that the arrowhead was in use by UESPA 200 years before TOS and by the starship Kelvin over 30 years before TOS.

Kind of ties in with one of my pet theories that in the 23rd century, the Federation actual has no Starships, all the Starships exploring and protecting the Federation belong directly to the individual members. The organization in Archer's time called Starfleet and the organization in Kirk's time called Starfleet are the same organization. When Kirk (at least initially) refers to Starships and Starbases as Earth ships and Earth bases, that exactly what he means.

Different members would have their own organizations, but under different names.

 

[Timo]

Besides Naked Time and Naked Now, the aliment, (or a variation of it) may have struck the Federation many times at intervals through the years. This particular ailment might have a psychological component which manifests itself in compulsive behavior, one such compulsion being showering fully clothed. When it strikes a group, one member (or more) of the group would inevitable take such a shower.

So in that case there would be many reports with this element, increasing the chances that Riker read about it... But that in turn would make it statistically odd that our heroes stumble onto the particular report filed by a starship with the same name as their own!

Not to mention that it should then probably have been Crusher, not Riker, who'd remember this recurring medical oddity. "The Naked Now" makes it sound like there weren't known cases beyond these two Enterprise ones.

People do remember strange things, though. And I don't mean that they'd only remember things that appeared strange to them... The medical aspects of the report on the destruction of Psi 2000 might not have held any particular interest to Riker. But it's plausible he'd have carefully read that report because it featured a time travel incident - those might still be considered rare in the mid-24th century, and might be right down Riker's alley of interests. The bit about clothed showering would then randomly dangle at the back of his mind.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SpyOne]

Trek2009 is a second take on the same story. That JJ Abrams thought the swoosh insignia should be used on the Kelvin, 20 years before the Enterprise, is no indication of where the symbol might have been used in the Prime universe.

Which is a moot argument anyway because of "Court-martial" and "Friendship One."

Your calling what I said a moot argument because of the other evidence makes me think you misunderstood me. I certainly never intended my comments to suggest that the use of the insignia in the Abrams movie should be evidence that it would be the opposite in the Prime universe or anything. I merely contend that it is useless as evidence of what happened in the Prime universe one way or the other.

You may have thought I was gearing up for a point-by-point takedown of your position, but I really wasn't. It's just that you said, essentially, that X is true because of A, B, and C, and I pointed out that C doesn't actually prove anything. This was not a prelude to attacking B or A.

That said, all Friendship One proves is that the symbol was in use long before it was assigned to the Enterprise. The meaning of this is pretty open for debate. For instance, was the symbol that of the UESPA, and was that why it was used on Enterprise? Kirk made a couple of references to Enterprise being a UESPA ship, is UESPA now a sub-part of Starfleet, and all UESPA ships have that insignia? Or was that the insignia of some division within UESPA, and Enterprise is part of a division of Starfleet that descends from it?
And in Court Martial we see people on the Starbase wearing that insignia? I don't have that episode handy, so I'm curious who exactly is wearing it. Crewmen in the halls could obviously be Enterprise crew, so it's probably somebody more significant. If the Commodore is wearing it, well he almost definitely isn't part of the Enterprise crew.
But again, this raises more questions than it answers: we have seen several Starship Captains, and none of them has had the same insignia as Enterprise or as each other. What do the insignia mean? Do they designate a division, like maybe a "fleet"? If so, why are there ships from so many different fleets operating in the same area? Or is it more like some are Explorers, some are Border Defense, and some are Mapping? And if so, which is which?

Those are questions for another thread, and honestly I don't think they are questions to which there are definitive answers. But I agree wholeheartedly that the notion that the shoosh was the insignia of the Enterprise (and only the Enterprise) has some major holes in it.

 

[SpyOne]

Kind of ties in with one of my pet theories that in the 23rd century, the Federation actual has no Starships, all the Starships exploring and protecting the Federation belong directly to the individual members. The organization in Archer's time called Starfleet and the organization in Kirk's time called Starfleet are the same organization. When Kirk (at least initially) refers to Starships and Starbases as Earth ships and Earth bases, that exactly what he means.

Different members would have their own organizations, but under different names.

I have a curiously similar pet theory.
Starfleet was originally made by merging the fleets of the members. (I seem to recall some stuff about the Bajoran Militia getting absorbed into Starfleet when Bajor joins the Federation). While theoretically a unified fleet, in many ways it remained a bunch of separate fleets, and ships are generally crewed by people from the same planet/government. Thus, there are Starfleet ships out there with all-Vulcan crews, and probably with all-Andorian crews and all-Tellarite crews and so on.
By and large, these crews came up through the same institutions they would have when they were serving in the fleet of their world: grow up on Vulcan, attend the Vulcan Military Academy (or whatever), serve Vulcan aboard an all-Vulcan Starfleet ship.

HOWEVER, humans are weird. Humans are inclusive. The humans made it absolutely clear that one need not be a human to attend the human Academy: Earth's Academy is open to everyone. The catch is, if you attend the Earth Academy, you are going to get assigned to an Earth ship.
Every time a world joins the Federation, some brave soul becomes the first of his race to attend what the humans call "Starfleet Academy". More of his kind will follow. Eventually it will not be unusual to see members of that race working side-by-side with humans on human ships and at human installations.

All very non-canon, but I like it, and it smooths out some of the rough-spots in Trek. It needs a bit of fine-tuning, though.

 

[Timo]

Do they designate a division, like maybe a "fleet"? If so, why are there ships from so many different fleets operating in the same area?

We could easily argue that the other fleets stayed put - it was merely the Enterprise that moved around a lot!

Or is it more like some are Explorers, some are Border Defense, and some are Mapping? And if so, which is which?

It would be attractive to think that the Fleet Kirk's ship was part of would be primarily tasked with exploration (which is why Kirk seems a bit wet behind the ears on the issue of border defense in "Balance of Terror") or other mobile errands, while other Fleets would be more static. This could also tie in to the idea that the arrowhead is primarily an exploration symbol, tracing its ancestry from NASA to UESPA and through that to the UESF, and from there to certain sections of the UFP SF, until finally becoming standardized for the entire UFP SF (perhaps as a political gesture to "paint Starfleet in exploration colors"?).

OTOH, the knotty symbol for the Antares in "Charlie X" could nicely be one for the Logistics Division or somesuch, depicting the tortuous paths of supply ships across the Federation... Perhaps the same goes for the Constellation knot?

And in Court Martial we see people on the Starbase wearing that insignia? I don't have that episode handy, so I'm curious who exactly is wearing it. Crewmen in the halls could obviously be Enterprise crew, so it's probably somebody more significant.

Alas, my access to TrekCore from this particular machine is less than satisfactory, so I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to track the screencaps for these down:

- Kirk met two hostile guys in the bar, one redshirt and one goldshirt lieutenant, both with the arrowhead. He had not met them for quite some time, as per dialogue, so probably they were not from Kirk's ship, even if the other arrowhead people there were. We could perhaps argue they were about to join Kirk's crew, though, and thus were wearing his colors.

- Stone's assistant probably wasn't from Kirk's ship, either. Yet she wore the arrowhead when bringing material to Stone's office. (I think. Not sure if I recall correctly here.)

Apart from those, the Defiant crew was seen wearing the arrowheads in "Tholian Web", on those few cases where the director failed to hide the chest insignia (although the effort to do that was clearly made). But ENT "In a Mirror, Darkly", retconned those to a somewhat similar-looking yet distinct symbol, which in this case I have no problem with.

Did we spot more Starbase 11 arrowheads in "The Menagerie"? I think one goldskirt Lieutenant wore an arrowhead while standing behind a desk as Mendez gave the guided tour to the ICU in the teaser. Very unlikely she would have been from the Enterprise, or even from some other visiting starship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Your calling what I said a moot argument because of the other evidence makes me think you misunderstood me. I certainly never intended my comments to suggest that the use of the insignia in the Abrams movie should be evidence that it would be the opposite in the Prime universe or anything. I merely contend that it is useless as evidence of what happened in the Prime universe one way or the other.

And I disagree, because the clear intent was that it was the Prime universe up until the moment that Nero came out of that black hole and threw history onto a new track. Yes, it looks different than we expected, but that's artistic interpretation, and it would frankly have been a mistake not to show us something new and unexpected. There's no way that ship and uniform designs looking like "The Cage" would've satisfied a modern motion-picture audience. So to say there are too many changes for it to be reconcilable is disingenuous, considering how much one has to stretch and rationalize and gloss over in order to pretend that the five previous series and ten previous movies represent a remotely consistent reality.

Canon has always been a mutable thing. It's the pretense of consistency, not the reality of it. There was a lot I didn't like continuity-wise, design-wise, etc. about the movies, about VGR, about ENT, even about TNG and DS9. But I accepted them all as new, alternate creative interpretations of a work of fiction, and went along with the conceit that they represented a consistent reality, just one that turned out to be different in certain ways than what I'd previously been led to expect. And this is no different from any of those prior cases. If we can pretend that "Space Seed" and TWOK are in the same reality despite Khan's multiethnic followers turning into a bunch of blond Aryans who are somehow twentysomething after being stranded as adults fifteen years earlier, or that the Data who used contractions and showed emotions in early TNG is the same character as the later Data who claimed to be incapable of either, then it should be child's play to accept that the Kelvin really was a direct antecedent of the Enterprise we saw in "The Cage." There's no logical reason to postulate anything else.

That said, all Friendship One proves is that the symbol was in use long before it was assigned to the Enterprise. The meaning of this is pretty open for debate. For instance, was the symbol that of the UESPA, and was that why it was used on Enterprise? Kirk made a couple of references to Enterprise being a UESPA ship, is UESPA now a sub-part of Starfleet, and all UESPA ships have that insignia? Or was that the insignia of some division within UESPA, and Enterprise is part of a division of Starfleet that descends from it?

I don't think the burden of proof is on the assertion that the insignia wasn't adopted to honor the Enterprise. I think it's very unlikely that a single starship could be so uniquely important that the entire service would adopt its insignia. I think that would be seen as a gross insult to all the other ships and their crews that served with equal valor. And it's just such a fannish, improbable notion. The burden of proof should be on the claim that the insignia was only the E's at first. The evidence from "Friendship One," "Court-martial," and ST'09 provides a plausible alternative theory, one that is far more plausible and palatable, in fact. And that means the claim that the insignia was originally the E's fails to meet the burden of proof.

And in Court Martial we see people on the Starbase wearing that insignia? I don't have that episode handy, so I'm curious who exactly is wearing it. Crewmen in the halls could obviously be Enterprise crew, so it's probably somebody more significant. If the Commodore is wearing it, well he almost definitely isn't part of the Enterprise crew.

The flag officers are wearing a starburst insignia, but we see the arrowhead on the uniforms of officers in the starbase bar who are clearly not part of Kirk's crew -- people that Kirk identifies as fellow members of his graduating class, people he hasn't seen in years, people who address him as "Jim" rather than "Captain," people who resent Kirk because of the claims that he let Finney die and who talk back to him in ways that nobody under Kirk's direct command possibly could. There's no doubt that these are not Enterprise crew, and they are clearly wearing the arrowhead emblem. Of course that's because the costume designers just dressed them in whatever they had in stock that day and didn't have the time or money to make new insignias for one scene, but still, it is what it is.

But again, this raises more questions than it answers: we have seen several Starship Captains, and none of them has had the same insignia as Enterprise or as each other. What do the insignia mean? Do they designate a division, like maybe a "fleet"?

That's an idea I've heard (and proposed) before. I like the idea that maybe the arrowhead is for ships in the fleet whose command base is Starbase 11, which is why everyone in the Starbase 11 bar is wearing them. The other insignias could be for subfleets based out of other starbases. Occasionally their patrol areas would overlap, or one would go out of its way to answer a distress call from another or search for a missing ship (as in "The Omega Glory," say), or some would be pulled off their patrol areas for a special assignment (as in "The Ultimate Computer").