Cheers Timo - I was wondering why no one had mentioned Van Gelder or Kirk in these instances...
Forced Mind Meld?
- Thread starter ClawsThatCatch
- Start date
Cheers Timo - I was wondering why no one had mentioned Van Gelder or Kirk in these instances...
Earlier Trek didn't seem to show us that people in the future would get as upset about this as some people do now. In TOS the Talosians (Menagerie) read minds, so did Gem (Empath), so did the Salt Vampire (Man Trap). It was simply the nature of their species to do this. The thought of another species reading our minds without permission didn't get their panties into a wad in those days. The advanced race that built the Shore Leave planet had a machine read thoughts and that advanced species accepted this eagerly!!
If a telepathic species did exist, I can't say that they would share our alleged morality concerning this issue.
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Re: QUINTO'S SPOCK SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!!!
It depends who's doing it.
If someone goes into my mind for one bit of info (like Spock did) and they didn't poke around, then I'd pick mind meld.
If someone's gonna relive/steal my memories and perhaps rewrite things however they want then (ulp!) the alternative.
It depends who's doing it.
If someone goes into my mind for one bit of info (like Spock did) and they didn't poke around, then I'd pick mind meld.
If someone's gonna relive/steal my memories and perhaps rewrite things however they want then (ulp!) the alternative.
We never knew why she screamed during the mind meld. I always thought it was a terrible memory, one that lead to her decision to betray the Federation. If you look at Spock's face right after the mind meld, he is shocked at what he has seen in her mind.
I thought her scream was due to Spock delving too deeply inside her mind. Her mind was literally being split into segments as he searched for the answers. I saw Spock's reaction following this meld as:
1. Partly sharing her pain (as per mind meld)
2. Regret at his own actions (even though they were neccessary)
IMO
1. Partly sharing her pain (as per mind meld)
2. Regret at his own actions (even though they were neccessary)
IMO
Re: QUINTO'S SPOCK SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!!!
Another example of how TOS seemed less uptight about this issue is Conscience of the King. At the end, McCoy says he has altered Lenore's memories and made her forget things. It is viewed as a good, healthy thing to do in that episode.
Can't help but to think that, when we are presented with some Sci-Fi ideas that is very foreign to us, we tend to keep limiting them and taking their differentness away. The concept of mind-melding, like Pon-Farr, is very different and writers want to limit the ways these ideas might make the species different than Humans are. The concepts that are very different though, like touch telepathy, are often the most thought provoking.
Another example of how TOS seemed less uptight about this issue is Conscience of the King. At the end, McCoy says he has altered Lenore's memories and made her forget things. It is viewed as a good, healthy thing to do in that episode.
Can't help but to think that, when we are presented with some Sci-Fi ideas that is very foreign to us, we tend to keep limiting them and taking their differentness away. The concept of mind-melding, like Pon-Farr, is very different and writers want to limit the ways these ideas might make the species different than Humans are. The concepts that are very different though, like touch telepathy, are often the most thought provoking.
My impression was that she was crazy at that point so she had received some kind of treatment like electroshock which made her forget about the incident. McCoy is showing Kirk the test results of his treatment which gets her under control.
In any case, early TOS Trek seemed more concerned with presenting sci-fi ideas rather than moralizing about them. Lots of interesting ideas exist about the idea telepathy. Lots of TOS characters read minds too. The idea that the alleged invasion of privacy would be so taboo to the entire galaxy seems to be an emotional reaction of Humans. Vulcans, who ignore emotion, might not have such a strong emotional response to the idea of reading a mind without permission if it were the logical thing to do. Spock, when faced with upholding conflicting values, might not find this as wrong to do as an illogical Human would.
In TOS they said Spock didn't like to meld because it exposed him to anothers emotions, and was physically taxing as well. If the Vulcans have this ability, and could use it in a logical and beneficial fashion, I think they would do so. They wouldn't get caught up in all this emotional reaction the idea provokes in some humans.
Well, if you take a look at the list of forced mind melds and attempts of forced mind melds in Star Trek from the first page of the thread, you'll see that there have been many instances that don't fit that gender pattern... and then you'll also notice that, when the victim is male, neither the episodes/films try to make it into rape metaphors, nor the fans tend to see it that way. When the melder is male and the victim female, everyone is calling it rape. People have been calling the TUC scene "mind-rape" for ages, and ENT "Fusion" went out of its way with presenting Tolaris' violation of T'Pol as a rape metaphor, but I don't remember anyone ever saying that Mirror Spock mind-raped McCoy, or that Miror T'Pol mind-raped Mirror Trip, or that Sakonna (from DS9 "The Maquis") tried to mind-rape Dukat. (Well, not before this thread, anyway.
)Which is indicative of Trek writers' - as well as many fans' - ideas about gender. It's probably the same reason why 80% of Youtube comments on VOY episode "Retrospect" are comparing Seven's alleged violation by the alien who was accused of stealing her Borg implants to rape - even though it's far more similar to organ harvesting, and even though nobody ever said Neelix was raped when the Viidians stole his lungs. And the same reason why TNG writers made Troi's telepathic abilities into a weakness instead of a strength, by having her repeatedly become a victim of mind-rapes (sexually, not in the 'stealing thoughts' way) by various bad guys, sometimes for no good reason at all.
I think that if the person is so mentally compromised that he can't legally consult to treatment or to a Vulcan Mind Meld, then decision making probably falls to someone else to act as a proxy for the patient's medical decision making. (We call that Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare Matters.) It looks like Dr. McCoy granted the permission, just as doctors can grant permission today to provide treatments when mentally compromised patients are unable to grant permission themselves.
We could argue that the very nature of the "treatment" here lends extra credibility to the consent given by the patient. Spock should have been able to find out whether the consent was "for real" during the first few moments of the melding already, as (according to certain later references to the nature of the meld) he became privy to the innermost thoughts of the patient, there being little chance of van Gelder lying to him under duress or otherwise miscommunicating his will.
Of course, nobody aboard the ship could really verify whether Spock was being ethical or not, whether he was pressing on after finding lack of consent inside van Gelder's noggin. But in an environment with more of Spock's species present, such verification would come easily, which might be taken as establishing Spock's ethical qualifications: he couldn't expect to get away with villainy in the general case, so he probably would be ethical here as well.
Few real-world treatments would compare. Perhaps the closest thing would be a treatment where a coma patient is restored to consciousness, by potentially dubious means, and gains the power to either thank or condemn his doctors for the act?
DevilEyes, we reach. Thankfully, though, the actual word "rape" has not been promoted in dialogue in those cases; it's limited to an audience reaction and more or less obvious writer intent. Generally, our heroes and heroines keep such a stiff upper lip about the torments they are exposed to that we can't learn what sort of stigmata the various acts of violation really carry in the future society.
Timo Saloniemi
Of course, nobody aboard the ship could really verify whether Spock was being ethical or not, whether he was pressing on after finding lack of consent inside van Gelder's noggin. But in an environment with more of Spock's species present, such verification would come easily, which might be taken as establishing Spock's ethical qualifications: he couldn't expect to get away with villainy in the general case, so he probably would be ethical here as well.
Few real-world treatments would compare. Perhaps the closest thing would be a treatment where a coma patient is restored to consciousness, by potentially dubious means, and gains the power to either thank or condemn his doctors for the act?
DevilEyes, we reach. Thankfully, though, the actual word "rape" has not been promoted in dialogue in those cases; it's limited to an audience reaction and more or less obvious writer intent. Generally, our heroes and heroines keep such a stiff upper lip about the torments they are exposed to that we can't learn what sort of stigmata the various acts of violation really carry in the future society.
Timo Saloniemi
Nothing of the kind. He just observed that she doesn't remember any of it -- it wasn't because of anything he did.
How would they know this? Does the ability to determine what anyone remembers or not even exist?
Didn't "Dagger of the Mind" deal with the same idea... altering memories to rehabilitate?
ADAMS: Um, part of our cure, if you will, Captain, is to bury the past. Why should a person go on living with unbearable memories if there's no necess. Oh, I feel quite sure that you'd concur with me in that, Doctor. Helen.
NOEL: A shifting of memory patterns is basic to psychotherapy......
NOEL: Beam neutralising has been experimented with on Earth, Captain. I'm not acquainted with this particular style of equipment, but I can assure you that Doctor Adams has not created a chamber of horrors here.
I am not debating the ethics, rather the fact that TOS didn't treat the idea of reading thoughts or removing memories as so unbearable revolting and taboo as later Trek did. Vulcans had no trouble using mind melding for establishing a bond between Spock and his fiance at 7 years old. If there is a logical reason to do so, I believe a Vulcan would forcibly meld... "logically and efficiently...".
If we use the word "mind-rape" it tends to evoke an emotional reaction - something a Vulcan would dismiss. I believe Vulcans would place a value on mental privacy, but only to the point of it being "the logical thing to do".
I took this to be the mental (and physical) shock for both of them at Spock intruding into Valeris' mind against her will. Neither of them likely knew what that would feel like... Spock as the intruder, and Valeris as the one being violated.
A new and unpleasant experience for both of them.
I'd imagine the laws of consent for all this mind-meld (and other telepathy) stuff must be very complicated.
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