The Problem with the Comic Book Industry

[The Borgified Corpse]

I don't think prices are the problem. $4 per comic is pretty cheap. It's cheaper than going to the theater or renting a movie. The problem is that there's very little value in each $4 book. They're so short. I've had sneezes that have lasted longer. Whatever happened to 50 cents for 60 full-color pages?

People know these characters exist. they go and watch them in their droves at the cinemas. They know comics exist, but they make no effort at all to go find these comics. And they dont because they dont want to read adventures of these characters. that is the fundamental fact of it all, comics are a niche medium these days that people in general just dont care about, and nothing that gets done, putting comics up on websites, making them digitally available, tieing in with the latest movie, putting Obama in the story, whatever, wont change that. People wont suddenly go, "hey, I want to go find the latest Spider-man!!" They will go, as they do now, "spider-man comics? meh, when's spiderman 4 out?"

Yes, literacy is decreasing and that's part of the problem. This is another reason why the audience is complicit. Johnny can't read and Generation ADD can't sit still long enough.

I don't think literacy is a problem here. You've got giant herds of young people lining up outside bookstores for midnight releases of the newest Harry Potter/Twilight/etc. novel. But it's possible that we are seeing comics squeezed between the mediums of prose & film. Comics don't have quite the same ability to take us into the mind's eye of the characters the way that prose can. Meanwhile, the static action panels of comics can hardly compare to the raucous fight scenes on film & TV. For comics to succeed in today's ultra-dense entertainment marketplace, they have to concentrate of what comics can offer that no other medium can.

In this respect, I think Watchmen is the Rosetta Stone of comics. Whereas many comics feel like they're just static versions of a wannabe movie, Watchmen is clearly designed to be viewed as a series of still images, with the flow of the panels dictating to the reader's imagination what the movement is. Plus, with still panels that the reader can linger on for as long as neccessary, it allows the artwork to be incredibly dense with blink-and-you-miss-it detail to flesh out the world that the characters inhabit.

 

[rafterman1701]

I feel sad for many of the people here. These last few years have been pretty amazing. That's not to say the industry doesn't have problems, but they're definitely at a creative high point. Comics are comics are comics and many of these "problems" are what make comics so much fun.

 

[A beaker full of death]

In this respect, I think Watchmen is the Rosetta Stone of comics. Whereas many comics feel like they're just static versions of a wannabe movie, Watchmen is clearly designed to be viewed as a series of still images, with the flow of the panels dictating to the reader's imagination what the movement is.

Actually, I find the art in Watchmen is the weakest part.
Your observation about lack of narrative flow in comics may be true of some artists, but by no means all or even most -- and it's true of none of them prior to 1986.

I feel sad for many of the people here. These last few years have been pretty amazing. That's not to say the industry doesn't have problems, but they're definitely at a creative high point. Comics are comics are comics and many of these "problems" are what make comics so much fun.

You think alternately re-telling stories that are 50-80 years old and butchering the characterizations of established characters is a "creative high point?"

 

[MNM]

The fact that they top the charts is why the audience shares the blame. Also, they are topping the charts in an ever-dwindling market.

I'll be honest, I find saying the audience "shares the blame" simply because a certain type of comics dominates the top of the charts to be hugely pretentious and annoying. Because a type of comic you dont like is what is selling, doesnt make it bad or wrong.

Yes, literacy is decreasing and that's part of the problem.

Literacy is a societal problem, it's not really relevant to this discussion though as people dont want to read these stories, simply because they dont want to, not because they cant.

That's what they're doing. Focusing on that ever-dwindling audience.

That is the audience they have though. They are a niche market. It's a hard truth to hear, but's it true. there is no new audience out there to get comics to the "mainstream" or anything like that. Comic companies have to deal with what they have, and the best they can do is, rather than waste effort time and money on chasing people who will never come, is to focus those resources on the people who are actually interested in comics.

That's why Comics mostly suck now

Meh, you think they suck, I dont.

 

[Smiley]

If we could get reasonably priced comics in grocery stores again, the market would likely expand. Instead of shelling out for the magazines at the checkout lane, people might rather go for equally fictional but more entertaining stories.

 

[Mike Farley]

Archie Comics quietly sells a shit load of their digest sized books because they're stocked right there at the grocery checkstands.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I'll be honest, I find saying the audience "shares the blame" simply because a certain type of comics dominates the top of the charts to be hugely pretentious and annoying.

Well then, let's just say current fashions in Pop Culture are horrible. Not that I'm worried about being pretentious or annoying.

Because a type of comic you dont like is what is selling, doesnt make it bad or wrong.

No, of course not. But I certainly know the difference between high standards and low standards-- and I can be entertained by both under the right circumstances. And at the moment there is a definite deficit of high standards, in all areas of the entertainment industry.

Literacy is a societal problem, it's not really relevant to this discussion though as people dont want to read these stories, simply because they dont want to, not because they cant.

I think it's definitely part of the problem, if not the whole problem. That's why sales of even quality publications like Analog et al have dropped alarmingly.

That is the audience they have though. They are a niche market. It's a hard truth to hear, but's it true. there is no new audience out there to get comics to the "mainstream" or anything like that. Comic companies have to deal with what they have, and the best they can do is, rather than waste effort time and money on chasing people who will never come, is to focus those resources on the people who are actually interested in comics.

The audience used to be there and now it's gone. I made the comparison to Old Radio Shows earlier and it's a valid one. Radio was supplanted by a new form of entertainment; the same thing is happening to Comics. Unfortunately, there may be no way to stop it and Comics may become a real niche market.

Meh, you think they suck, I dont.

To each his own, I suppose.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Archie Comics quietly sells a shit load of their digest sized books because they're stocked right there at the grocery checkstands.

This is true. And they sell well all over the world. Whenever I mention that I collect Comics, the first thing most people ask about, no matter where they're from-- Ecuador, Thailand, whatever-- is Archie.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

I feel sad for many of the people here. These last few years have been pretty amazing. That's not to say the industry doesn't have problems, but they're definitely at a creative high point. Comics are comics are comics and many of these "problems" are what make comics so much fun.

You think alternately re-telling stories that are 50-80 years old and butchering the characterizations of established characters is a "creative high point?"

Excuse me, but as a Trekker, aren't you guilty of wanting the same thing to happen in Star Trek TV shows and movies (Next Generation, Voyager & Enterprise) and beating the hell out of Berman & Braga for not doing so? Aren't you the one who loves it when Joss Whedon kills off characters in Buffy, Angel & Serenity? When Ron Moore destroys well loved and established characters in Battlestar Galactica? All these things happened, and you didn't bat an eyelash, I'll bet (in the case of BSG, because you didn't have as much invested in the core being of the characters as fans of the original series did.) Yet now, in the case of DC & Marvel, you do?

These are the same type of shake-ups as seen in the above-mentioned shows usually done to make things more interesting than just having them be the same way-no more, and no less. And if they didn't happen, you'd be whining your head off about that too, and saying the the books are too kiddiefied (which is what would most likely happen if what you wanted were implemented!) As I said before and above, you should consider getting a pullbox and a lifetime membership so that you can get the books that you want without any difficulty, financial or otherwise. Even better, write to your congressperson and tell them to consider taking the state sales tax off of books and magazines (just as it exists in Ireland). Then you really won't be having any problems reading or buying comic books.

Archie Comics quietly sells a shit load of their digest sized books because they're stocked right there at the grocery checkstands.

This is true. And they sell well all over the world. Whenever I mention that I collect Comics, the first thing most people ask about, no matter where they're from-- Ecuador, Thailand, whatever-- is Archie.

You can solve your problems and not have to buy those stinky little things by subscribing to Archie comics; there's a subscription page in every issue.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Archie Comics quietly sells a shit load of their digest sized books because they're stocked right there at the grocery checkstands.

This is true. And they sell well all over the world. Whenever I mention that I collect Comics, the first thing most people ask about, no matter where they're from-- Ecuador, Thailand, whatever-- is Archie.

You can solve your problems and not have to buy those stinky little things by subscribing to Archie comics; there's a subscription page in every issue.

I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

This is true. And they sell well all over the world. Whenever I mention that I collect Comics, the first thing most people ask about, no matter where they're from-- Ecuador, Thailand, whatever-- is Archie.

You can solve your problems and not have to buy those stinky little things by subscribing to Archie comics; there's a subscription page in every issue.

I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is, is subscribe, get a pullbox, agitate to have books not be taxed, or keep quiet and deal. You're not going to get DC and Marvel to change how they do things back to what they were, because (A) they were losing money and readers during those 'golden days' you love so much and (B) 'going back' just to get a younger generation is bogus at best. The younger generation should learn to balance their media input a lot better than they do now, and they can do it: all it takes is the willingness to do so on their and their parent's behalf. Getting a pullbox and a lifetime membership at comic book stores that do so is one way, but they can also subscribe to DC, Marvel, Archie and cut out the middleman completely. There are options to enjoying comics books still; use them, or lose them!

EDIT: if you live in Canada, Chapters/Indigo sells comic books in spinning racks at their locations, so you can buy them in the same fashion as if you were buying them at the supermarket check-out counter.

 

[RJDiogenes]

You can solve your problems and not have to buy those stinky little things by subscribing to Archie comics; there's a subscription page in every issue.

I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is, is subscribe, get a pullbox, agitate to have books not be taxed, or keep quiet and deal. You're not going to get DC and Marvel to change how they do things back to what they were, because (A) they were losing money and readers during those 'golden days' you love so much and (B) 'going back' just to get a younger generation is bogus at best. The younger generation should learn to balance their media input a lot better than they do now, and they can do it: all it takes is the willingness to do so on their and their parent's behalf. Getting a pullbox and a lifetime membership at comic book stores that do so is one way, but they can also subscribe to DC, Marvel, Archie and cut out the middleman completely. There are options to enjoying comics books still; use them, or lose them!

EDIT: if you live in Canada, Chapters/Indigo sells comic books in spinning racks at their locations, so you can buy them in the same fashion as if you were buying them at the supermarket check-out counter.

I live in Massachusetts and I've had a sub list at my Comic shop for decades. I still don't get why you are saying these things to me. Are you mistaking me for someone else?

The Comic Book medium is dying because of low quality, high prices, lack of variety and competition from glitzy technologies that are more appealing to Generation ADD. Unless the publishers do something about all this, my local Comic shop won't exist and neither will my subscriber list.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I feel sad for many of the people here. These last few years have been pretty amazing. That's not to say the industry doesn't have problems, but they're definitely at a creative high point. Comics are comics are comics and many of these "problems" are what make comics so much fun.

You think alternately re-telling stories that are 50-80 years old and butchering the characterizations of established characters is a "creative high point?"

Excuse me, but as a Trekker, aren't you guilty of wanting the same thing to happen in Star Trek TV shows and movies (Next Generation, Voyager & Enterprise) and beating the hell out of Berman & Braga for not doing so? Aren't you the one who loves it when Joss Whedon kills off characters in Buffy, Angel & Serenity? When Ron Moore destroys well loved and established characters in Battlestar Galactica? All these things happened, and you didn't bat an eyelash, I'll bet (in the case of BSG, because you didn't have as much invested in the core being of the characters as fans of the original series did.) Yet now, in the case of DC & Marvel, you do?

Since you ask, ace, no, I tolerate TNG, have no love for Voyager, and have not watched a single episode of Buffy, Angel, Serenity (despite a friend of mine being in the cast) or the new Battlestar Galactica.
But thanks so much for playing. We have a lifetime supply of turtle wax just for you.

 

[A beaker full of death]

The Comic Book medium is dying because of ... lack of variety

I disagree with this factor. Never before has there been such a variety of art styles - and levels of skill - in the world of regularly published comics than there is now.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think he's talking about the Superhero genre's strangle hold on the medium ( especialy at the top two).

The variety of style and skill has never been an issue in comics.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

The Comic Book medium is dying because of low quality, high prices, lack of variety and competition from glitzy technologies that are more appealing to Generation ADD. Unless the publishers do something about all this, my local Comic shop won't exist and neither will my subscriber list.

Where does this 'Generation ADD' bullshit come from? As you were told before, most kids do read (Harry Potter & Twilight) plus other popular things like manga. They're just not reading DC and Marvel as much. As for low quality, I dare you to compare a story from 35 years ago and the paper it was printed on to what's being made now, and see how it is!

I personally tried to get into old comic books a few years back by buying a copy of Superman's Girl Friend Lois Lane (at Toronto Comicon)-the story was the usual thing with exclamation points every word, printed on cheap paper. I instantly took it back to the vendor and got myself a copy of Superman: Birthright; better reading and a better storyline, I've not sampled elsewhere. This whole post/topic sound to me like misplaced nostalgia, the same affliction that's plaguing North America; I don't think that comic books are that bad, it's just the perception of them that is.

 

[Andonagio]

Let me chime in with a response to everything that's been said so far.

In the OP, I talked a lot about the nature of superhero stories in the Marvel and DC universes. Now, I don't necessarily think that the average quality of the stories themselves is any worse than what it was fifteen or thirty years ago. In fact, Marvel's told some pretty good stories lately. What I was protesting was the narrative structure that Marvel and DC use.

In my opinion, no comic book--no fictional universe, for that matter--should require a newcomer to be familiar with years and years of backstory to understand where the story is now (this is also why I think serialized TV shows should last no longer than six or seven seasons). I'm not suggesting that earlier stories shouldn't impact later ones or that stories shouldn't be multi-part, but I should be able to pick up any trade at random and read the whole thing start to finish without feeling like I'm missing some backstory or that I came in late.

Until the mid-1990s, this was how comics worked as a rule of thumb (there are always exceptions, but bear with me here...). If the issue was part I of a story, the reader was filled in with any necessary background within the first few pages, usually with either editorial footnotes or dialogue between the characters. But then, thanks to record-breaking sales by stories such as Death of Superman, comic-book stories started lasting years instead of months (you all remember the mess with Spider-Man's Clone Saga?), and they often had universe-altering consequences whose aftermath would be explored in the next storyline and which in turn would play into the the next universe-altering story.

Again, take Marvel. Avengers Disassembled played into House of M which played into Civil War which played into Secret Invasion which played into Dark Reign which played into Siege. I feel like I can't read any of these stories without reading all of the ones that came before it, which isn't fair to the newcomer. To compound the problem, a lot of the superhero titles introduced a lot of details between stories that became crucial to the next story, and it becomes challenging for the reader to figure out just what issues he or she needs to read to get a complete picture. I can't go straight from Civil War to Secret Invasion without feeling like I'm missing something in between.

In short, I don't think it's a story quality problem so much as a narrative structure problem. Nor do I think it's generational: with the growing digital comics market, the comic-book industry is figuring out how to make a supposedly antiquated medium appeal to the computer-savvy Milennials. It's certainly not a literacy problem: if anything, literacy rates are increasing as more and more people have access to public education, and literacy is required to use the internet, anyway. And I don't mind shaking up the fictional universe so long as it's done sparingly and the changes persist (ex. Marvel's Ultimatum story). And finally, there's no good excuse for not going from glossy back to standard paper and knocking the book price down by at least a dollar.

I think the things Marvel and DC are doing these days with their superhero lines are extremely unfair to their readers. They're forcing their seasoned readers to buy extra comics just to keep up with their favorite stories, and they're closing off access to newcomers. These aren't sustainable practices, and it may come back to haunt them in the long run. Interestingly, Marvel has a much more practical and sustainable model with their Ultimate line, which is a model that I'd like to see spill over into their other titles.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I think he's talking about the Superhero genre's strangle hold on the medium ( especialy at the top two).

Ah. Well, it's always been that way, and I have no problem with it. Hell, Archie comics were about a superhero before they were about Archie.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think he's talking about the Superhero genre's strangle hold on the medium ( especialy at the top two).

Ah. Well, it's always been that way, and I have no problem with it. Hell, Archie comics were about a superhero before they were about Archie.

Yes, since the sixties its been that way. There was a time prior to that when SF, Western, Horror and Romance shared the news stands with Superheroes. And A time when Superheroes were the "weakest" of that group.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Interestingly, Marvel has a much more practical and sustainable model with their Ultimate line, which is a model that I'd like to see spill over into their other titles.

Excuse me, but aren't the Ultimates dead or dying?