Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?

[Christopher]

So if the humanity of ST's future is really as multicultural as it's claimed to be, it should have a more heavily hybridized language than it does. Heck, by the 24th century there should be countless Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite loan words and grammatical features in Federation Standard.

Fed Standard is kinda one of those fanon concepts, iirc, whereas English as a language is referenced, and as far as we can trust our eyes, is used in signage and is the official language of Starfleet (at least the Roman alphabet is the official script!).

I was speaking hypothetically. Obviously the conceit of the show is that they're still speaking our English, but in the conjectural case I was proposing, the standard tongue of the Federation would probably be only partially based on English, so I chose to call it "Federation Standard" instead for the sake of the hypothetical discussion.

 

[Myasishchev]

My mistake. My point was that English pretty much is the "Fed Standard," since they need some kind of official written language for the UTs to translate documents and signage (and because of UTs any more than one would be superfluous). But I'd object to that conception of a hybridized Fed Standard even more strenuously.

Any alien language would not be a natural language, as far as human beings are concerned. Now, the weight you'll give this objection depends on how much weight you give to Chomskyesque notions of universal grammar (I give a fair amount). However, even the biggest opponents of a strict rule- or parameter-based UG would recognize hard limits to human speech comprehension and production, and I believe most linguists would recognize that there is neurological machinery devoted to language that is not a complete tabula rasa.

I mean, a true alien language would be learnable--but it would likely be artificial, like a programming language. I'm dubious that alien grammatical features could be learnable by a child in the ordinary manner. Indeed, more bizarre (and probably more likely) forms of speech would be beyond human physiological capacity altogether. At best, a hybrid of, say, Vulcan and English would probably never become more than a very awkward pidgin. (And with UTs, why bother?)

 

[JarodRussell]

I always thought that Federation Standard was an artificial language, like Esperanto, created in conjunction with the foundation of the United Federation of Planets.

I mean, a true alien language would be learnable--but it would likely be artificial, like a programming language. I'm dubious that alien grammatical features could be learnable by a child in the ordinary manner. Indeed, more bizarre (and probably more likely) forms of speech would be beyond human physiological capacity altogether. At best, a hybrid of, say, Vulcan and English would probably never become more than a very awkward pidgin. (And with UTs, why bother?)

The thing is - in Star Trek at least - that the aliens are not only humanoid but most of the time also have the same abilities/disabilities when it comes to pronounciation. A human would never be able to make the sounds necessary for Tholian language, but he can speak Klingon, Vulcan, Romulan, Bajoran and other languages spoken by humanoid races.

 

[F. King Daniel]

According to the old Gold Key comics, they actually did speak Esperanto!

IIRC Diane Duane used to call the Federation language "Anglish".

 

[DimesDan]

According to the old Gold Key comics, they actually did speak Esperanto!

IIRC Diane Duane used to call the Federation language "Anglish".

I thought it was either two things. One, the Federation had a form of Basic similar to Star Wars. Or two, UTs were so heavily used that every single individual within the UFP spoke their "native" language and the UT compensated for it. Given Quark, Rom and Nog can be heard speaking Ferengi in "Little Green Men" when the UTs are not functioning, I would go more for the second thing. But given you sometimes hear Klingon slang thrown in with "English" terms it causes some issues, which is a whole other kettle of fish.

I just on the whole though try not to think about such things, chalk it upto artistic license and move on.

 

[JarodRussell]

Since this is a new universe now, where everything has been simplified, Federation Standard is nothing more than just plain English. Stardates are now nothing more than Earth dates either.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You know, if you want to be really anal about it, you could chalk it up to the new Star Trek coming with a better UT for us viewers. Stardates, once nonsence numbers, mean something now. Slang is now rendered with modern-day equivelents...

Or you could do as I do and say "it's a movie!"

 

[Christopher]

Any alien language would not be a natural language, as far as human beings are concerned. Now, the weight you'll give this objection depends on how much weight you give to Chomskyesque notions of universal grammar (I give a fair amount). However, even the biggest opponents of a strict rule- or parameter-based UG would recognize hard limits to human speech comprehension and production, and I believe most linguists would recognize that there is neurological machinery devoted to language that is not a complete tabula rasa.

Yes, realistically, alien languages would probably be so different that full translation might be impossible. But we're talking about the Trek universe, where all humanoids are descended from common genetic stock and are interfertile. And virtually all Trek humanoids think in a way that's easily comprehensible to humans, so their brain structures must be essentially equivalent. Indeed, Trek-humanoid languages are usually quite easy for a computer to translate even if it's never heard them before. That last fact alone tells us that most humanoid languages in Trek are based on certain universals. (I touched on this in SCE: Aftermath.) If it's acceptable to treat Trek aliens as essentially variant human populations where procreation is concerned, I think it's reasonable to make the same assumption where language is concerned.

(And with UTs, why bother?)

Because even the smoothest-seeming translation is still inexact. Because not everyone is going to be carrying a UT 24/7. Not to mention that the creolization process would likely have begun in the 22nd century, when UTs were still a nascent, unreliable, and far from universally available technology.

 

[Timo]

But given you sometimes hear Klingon slang thrown in with "English" terms it causes some issues, which is a whole other kettle of fish.

I direct you to "Blood Oath" where a number of Klingons plus Dax are discussing stuff, and we hear it in English. Suddenly, one of 'em throws in a Klingon word: "Koloth was known as D'akturak". Dax then turns towards another and translates this into what we hear as English: "Iceman".

Now, that may sound a bit weird: why would Dax have to translate a Klingon word into English for the benefit of native Klingons? But it makes perfect sense if you accept that the UT is actually in your own ear. These people must be speaking Klingon all the time, and the foreign word suddenly inserted is actually "Iceman", which Dax then translates to "D'akturak" for the benefit of the Klingons. We merely hear it "in mirror", because of the UT in our ears.

This sort of thinking explains most of what we hear, really. Most of the Klingon words that intersperse English conversation are insults, after all. And obviously a Klingon speaking Klingon into his translator would take the extra care to translate the insult into English so that his dimwitted human opponent would feel properly insulted despite his mental shortcomings!



Timo Saloniemi

 

[JD]

Or two, UTs were so heavily used that every single individual within the UFP spoke their "native" language and the UT compensated for it. Given Quark, Rom and Nog can be heard speaking Ferengi in "Little Green Men" when the UTs are not functioning, I would go more for the second thing. But given you sometimes hear Klingon slang thrown in with "English" terms it causes some issues, which is a whole other kettle of fish.

That's pretty much how I always thought of the language issue. After LGM showed them playing with the UTs in their ears, I've thought that it was something that was implanted into everybody when they were young, or at least when they first started dealing with members of other races.

 

[Christopher]

I've never really bought the idea that Quark, Rom, and Nog didn't know English. It seems to me that, UT or no, if you live among people for years you'd pick up their language, just in case the UTs failed. And I'm sure there were times when Quark, Nog, etc. used English idioms, read written English, etc. I prefer to believe that in "Little Green Men," their UTs werent turned off, just malfunctioning so that they scrambled what the Ferengi heard when the humans spoke English.

Although I admit that doesn't explain why the Ferengi didn't just try speaking English before. Maybe they didn't know about Earth history to know the same language would work. Or maybe it's as I said -- maybe the "English" people speak in the 24th century is radically changed from our English, and we're just hearing it translated for our benefit.

 

[JarodRussell]

I've never really bought the idea that Quark, Rom, and Nog didn't know English. It seems to me that, UT or no, if you live among people for years you'd pick up their language, just in case the UTs failed. And I'm sure there were times when Quark, Nog, etc. used English idioms, read written English, etc. I prefer to believe that in "Little Green Men," their UTs werent turned off, just malfunctioning so that they scrambled what the Ferengi heard when the humans spoke English.

Although I admit that doesn't explain why the Ferengi didn't just try speaking English before. Maybe they didn't know about Earth history to know the same language would work. Or maybe it's as I said -- maybe the "English" people speak in the 24th century is radically changed from our English, and we're just hearing it translated for our benefit.

The answer to that is that they don't speak English at all in the 24th century.

When we see them reading an English text, then it's like in a badly made WWII movie were Nazi officials are reading English orders.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Sisko and Bashir had no trouble reading and writing in english - and they didn't have their UTs with them (the badges). Indeed, all starfleeters who went to the past had no trouble understanding and speaking english.
As for Rom, Quark and Nog, they obviously DID NOT know english. They didn't understand english without their UTs, they didn't speak the only human language they supposedly knew when faced with humans. The intent of the scenarists was for the 3 ferengi to NOT know english.

As for english mutating to unrecognizability in only 300 years - that's highly improbable; also, a common federation language is nowhere mentioned - unlike the all present universal translator.

 

[Sci]

Any alien language would not be a natural language, as far as human beings are concerned. Now, the weight you'll give this objection depends on how much weight you give to Chomskyesque notions of universal grammar (I give a fair amount).

Oh, I dunno. If we can accept the idea that all these alien species' progenitors were genetically pre-programmed to evolve into a form that's nearly identical to that into which our ancestors evolved, is there any particular reason we can't assume that their brains were also programed with the same sort of universal grammar we have?

 

[JarodRussell]

Sisko and Bashir had no trouble reading and writing in english - and they didn't have their UTs with them (the badges). Indeed, all starfleeters who went to the past had no trouble understanding and speaking english.
As for Rom, Quark and Nog, they obviously DID NOT know english. They didn't understand english without their UTs, they didn't speak the only human language they supposedly knew when faced with humans. The intent of the scenarists was for the 3 ferengi to NOT know english.

As for english mutating to unrecognizability in only 300 years - that's highly improbable; also, a common federation language is nowhere mentioned - unlike the all present universal translator.

That's because Sisko and Bashir are from Earth and learn English in their hometown, and Federation Standard in school, and while they are on duty and together with other Aliens, they speak Federation Standard. Same reason why I speak French but at work I'm speaking English. I never bothered to learn the language of my Swedish co-worker. Or in this forum. Regardless from what country you are from, you speak English on the Internet.

Aliens like Quark would never waste time to learn one of thousands of Earth languages, or Federation languages respectively, they would only learn the official language, the community language. And that is Federation Standard.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Aliens like Quark would never waste time to learn one of thousands of Earth languages, or Federation languages respectively, they would only learn the official language, the community language. And that is Federation Standard.

I do find the ideea of a common federation language interesting enough.

But the fact remains it was nowhere mentioned - unlike UTs.

And the different anatomy of trek species also poses problems regarding this - not all federation members are humanoids, after all (the horta, for example).

 

[Myasishchev]

Any alien language would not be a natural language, as far as human beings are concerned. Now, the weight you'll give this objection depends on how much weight you give to Chomskyesque notions of universal grammar (I give a fair amount).

Oh, I dunno. If we can accept the idea that all these alien species' progenitors were genetically pre-programmed to evolve into a form that's nearly identical to that into which our ancestors evolved, is there any particular reason we can't assume that their brains were also programed with the same sort of universal grammar we have?

Now, going back to the love of the retcon...

 

[JD]

Aliens like Quark would never waste time to learn one of thousands of Earth languages, or Federation languages respectively, they would only learn the official language, the community language. And that is Federation Standard.

I do find the ideea of a common federation language interesting enough.

But the fact remains it was nowhere mentioned - unlike UTs.

While I do believe that most of what we here in the shows is translated by the UT, I still find it perfectly plausible that there would be a standard federation language wether it's English or an interstellar pidgin. They'd pretty much have to have something to rely on in case for some reason the UTs stopped working on one of the ships or starbases, they do need to have some way to communicate if this happens. Then there is also the writing we've seen, unless the UT totally changes the way you perceive all forms of communication, there would have to be some shared language that everybody can read. Oh, and just because something isn't mention doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Sometimes things just have to be a certain way for the universe to make sense.

 

[ronny]

That's because Sisko and Bashir are from Earth and learn English in their hometown, and Federation Standard in school, and while they are on duty and together with other Aliens, they speak Federation Standard. Same reason why I speak French but at work I'm speaking English. I never bothered to learn the language of my Swedish co-worker. Or in this forum. Regardless from what country you are from, you speak English on the Internet.

Reminds me of when I was in Norway for work and it came up in the conversation they took 9 years of English in school. I asked why and the response was:

We have to learn English. Who the hell is is going to speak Norwegian?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Aliens like Quark would never waste time to learn one of thousands of Earth languages, or Federation languages respectively, they would only learn the official language, the community language. And that is Federation Standard.

I do find the ideea of a common federation language interesting enough.

But the fact remains it was nowhere mentioned - unlike UTs.

While I do believe that most of what we here in the shows is translated by the UT, I still find it perfectly plausible that there would be a standard federation language wether it's English or an interstellar pidgin. They'd pretty much have to have something to rely on in case for some reason the UTs stopped working on one of the ships or starbases, they do need to have some way to communicate if this happens. Then there is also the writing we've seen, unless the UT totally changes the way you perceive all forms of communication, there would have to be some shared language that everybody can read. Oh, and just because something isn't mention doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Sometimes things just have to be a certain way for the universe to make sense.

Bajor was on the fringes of charted space at DS9's beginning - according to the show.
It's doubtful the bajorans were fluent in the so-called 'federation standard'.

Were there ever any communication problems with the bajorans during 7 seasons of DS9? The UT did his job wonderfully.

Trek's expanation for inter-species comunication was ALWAYS the UT - never the hypothetical 'federation standard'.
About reading - the characters always read from electronic devices - a translation program is the obvious answer.