Nice quote of Garak from Inter Arma Einem Silent Leges. You're a riot. You try to speak to us (doubters) in our own language, appealing to "facts" and "the world as it really is." Nice touch. The problem is, the "facts" point to the conclusion that we are grounded in the real world and you are living a fantasy. I gave you several opportunities to present your so-called facts earlier and you ducked every time. No more. You want to play our game? Produce your facts or STFU!
But I already told you that nobody truly bases their decision on the facts on something like this. I could point people to a couple of good books to read. But I know no one who is not a believer is going to read them unless they were truly interested in seeking out God. I mean, just your reaction in telling me off is reason enough that no matter what fact I would show you. It would do no good. I know this because I have tried this tactic when I first got saved and learned this is not the way people are going to listen when it comes to being convinced of the things of God. People have a way of twisting the truth to the way they see it. So why should I bring facts up when you or others are just going to put a spin on them and then insult me? No. First you need to take that leap of faith. Then you will see. If you don't, then truly seeing (my side of the fence) won't work.
Ultimately a person takes a leap of faith, in becoming a believer. That it reaches this point is inevitable given that our minds cannot contain all there is to know, and our judgment is flawed. But how people get to that point where they are prepared for that leap differs from person to person. Some have had dreams and visions. These are certainly valid conversions, and these people may get the learning aspect later, as you suggest. Others experience a much quieter journey that may be one of long study, and only then does the part of it that is about spirit come in, and this as a quiet whisper rather than a loud shout. Sometimes it happens in a flash--other times it takes years. But all of it is led by God. So just because someone doesn't reach the point of asking to be baptized in the exact same way you did doesn't mean they did it wrong. You seem to have set yourself up as determining how each seeker's journey must progress, and if someone doesn't follow your exact checklist, then they have no chance. Who put you in the judgment seat, anyway, as the eternal arbiter of anyone's soul? EVEN IF you happen to be Calvinist, the fact remains that you still do not have a list before you of who are the elect and who are the damned...you do not possess a copy of the Book of Life. Do not presume to act as though you know what will go on between any person and God, that may not be spoken in words while you happen to be present. And furthermore, if by our own contempt anyone is driven away, then it'll go far worse on us, who should have known better! Now that is ALL I have to say to you on this--it does not need to be belabored. But it had to be said.
I told you that we doubters are most impressed by facts and that we most certainly do base our decisions on matters like this on facts. But you already know this. Clearly, you don't really have any facts and are just trying to string us along. Sorry but you are way too transparent. Take a leap of faith? That'll be the day! That way lies madness. That's not the way to truth; it's the way to burying your head in fantasy. Learning the truth can only be achieved by observation, experimentation and objective analysis and testing of facts.
P.S.: One last thing, lest my last post be misunderstood. That statement I made, that I cannot look at any person and state their eternal destination holds even in light of what I said about how we will bear responsibility if our cruelty drives anyone away. The state of our relationship will determine it. And since I cannot look at how anyone else relates to God except what I know for myself, then I cannot determine it even if someone says something repellent. Not knowing the totality of that person as God does, I CANNOT and MUST NOT make that judgment. I can only speak to behavior.
My biggest 'quibble' with Christianity is those Christians that believe theirs is the only right path and that all other religions and beliefs are evil. I see a lot of good in Buddhism and Jainism, far more good than I see in Christianity as it now stands though I doubt very much that Jesus would approve of way Christianity is nowadays or what has been done in its name. Among some unprogrammed Quakers there is a belief that Jesus (or the Inner Light) is in everyone and that when Jesus said "‘I am the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through Me" he meant that everyone should follow his Inner Light. this means that other religions can be followed without going against the Christ within so long as it doesn't go against their Inner Light. Even atheism is acceptable so long as the atheist is doing what he genuinely believe is the right thing for him to do.
Starry Eyed: Again with the insulting. Well, peace be unto you, my friend. Anyways, if you or anyone else wants do some reading I provided a selection of books below. But just know, you still need to take God at His Word (at some point) and ask him into your heart before you can truly see and believe, though. http://www.amazon.com/When-life-over-Rick-Jones/dp/0758903928/ http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Bible-Ray-Comfort/dp/0882709054/ http://www.amazon.com/Creation-vs-Evolution-Scientific-Discoveries/dp/0736903518/ http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Revelation-Hell-BAXTER-MARY/dp/0883682796/ http://www.amazon.com/Prepare-War-BROWN-REBECCA/dp/0883683245/ http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Todays-Religions-Josh-McDowell/dp/0785212191/ http://www.amazon.com/So-Whats-Difference-Fritz-Ridenour/dp/0830718982/ http://www.amazon.com/New-Age-Bible-Versions-Documentation/dp/0963584502/ Preview the inside of the books, read the reviews, request them at your library or buy them to check em out. Side Note: And if you want to knock the authors or their books. Please feel free to do so. But please read the book before knocking them, though. That way you will at least be more informed about the topic you are bashing when you do.
But just to let you guys know: discussing and debating those books to you here would be futile. You either will come to your own conclusions or believe. I can still show you all the evidence in the world that supports the Bible. But if you don't take that step of faith. You are never going to see my side of the fence. However, I pray that you do one day soon, my friends.
Miss Chicken: That's not the same thing. That's like asking a gourmet chef to start working at McDonalds. Why would he create (and fill his mind with) destructive and disgusting garbage for people when he knows he can create something extremely healthy and tasty for people? Plus, I no longer have nothing to lose anymore. On the other hand: by not believing in God and his Word (i.e. the Bible), you have everything to gain and everything to lose by not believing in Him. If I don't believe in evolution or reincarnation... nothing is changed. There is nothing lost if I don't believe in those things. And many other religions there is no real loss if I don't believe in them. Why? Because a good majority of those religions are cults which means they take the Bible and twist the truth (Which is Satan's way of attacking the Bible). So why would I fall for that trap? Oh, and why on Earth would I believe in anything that is going to lead down the path of the Pah-wraiths (Satanism and Wicca). I mean, I don't have to be a rocket scientist to know evil (i.e. the dark side of the force) when I see it.
It is the same thing. My beliefs are as strong as your beliefs. I believe that there is some truth at the core of religion and that that truth is what makes Man what he is. To narrow yourself off to just investigating one religion or one philosophy is to invite ignorance into your life. If I narrow myself to just to your Christian God (as opposed to the God that Christian Quakers believe in) I have plenty to lose - my chance to explore all aspects of mankind for a start and also chance to study science to my utmost understanding. There is nothing dark about the Wiccan religion. We have a couple of Wiccans on Trekbbs. They do not worship Satan. They are followers of a of a surviving pre-Christian pagan religion and the fact that you believe differently shows your ignorance of that religion. Maybe you can tell what is wrong with me identifying heavily with Quaker beliefs?
You do have a twisted mindset. And, why the hell would I have to read your book if YOU are not willing to read mine? Don't you see that you have a pretty arrogant attitude towards something other than Christian religion?
I do love the way he reprimands people calling their skepticism and requirements of evidence to be "hatred", whilst dismissing all other world views apart from his own as "destructive and disgusting garbage". What a joker
That's one of the reasons why fundamentally religious people couldn't be proper scientists. The moment they'd find data that doesn't fit into their theory, they'd dismiss and ignore it.
And this is why it is hard to make fundamentally religious people think objectively about their beliefs. Because their faith is the only thing they have, and if they lose it, they are afraid of losing everything. So they don't dare to think about it, because they are afraid they could change their mind. This is also the reason why Muslims feel personally insulted if you draw a cartoon of Muhammad. Because it attacks their very purpose of life. And in a discussion, at one point, it just goes click and you can't get through to a religious person anymore, no matter if Catholic or Muslim or Scientologist. It's similar to what an alcoholic lives through (except that religion doesn't really threaten your health like alcohol does). Lots of problems in life, and alcohol lets you forget about it, you can escape confrontation. And you don't stop drinking, and you don't question your actions because you are afraid of your life. And if somebody wants to help you, you most of the time want to kill him for trying. "Leave me alone!" they say. "You don't know what it's like."
Wow. That's a lot of hostility for just sharing my personal belief. I can't unlearn what I know folks. That's like asking me to ignore gravity or something. I believe what I believe with strong conviction because of not just one, but many things that have been revealed to me in my life (as a result of my faith). My belief might seem hard or odd to some of you. But it is what it is. I don't make the rules. I am just following what God has laid out in His Word (and not some religion that twists it around for the way they want it to be). I mean, lets say for example someone told you the Earth is flat. Would you believe them? No. You know better. But would that be wrong of you if you didn't indulge in any Flat Earth Society propaganda? No. It wouldn't be wrong of you to not indulge in any Flat Earth propaganda because you know better. You have a sense of knowledge (or education) that these Flat Earth Society people seriously lack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society#Flat_Earth_Society_today Side Note: Some further food for thought.... (a). I already know about a good majority of these doctrines from reading numerous books that confirm the very doctrines they follow. (b). The people of these other religions would be the first to point out if any Bible believers (authors, preachers, theologians) were to get a certain fact wrong about their religion or not. (c). What is your return on investment for your belief? Evaluate all religions and the beliefs (And determine which one you will more than likely have most to lose if you don't believe it). (d). Ask yourself. Do you get as mad over someone believing in other religions (or beliefs) like you do a person who believes in the Bible?
Urg. This is very insulting. And you know it. You make a show of wishing peace unto people, but at the same time your approach is ignorant, insulting and confrontational. You speak of the futility of speaking with people who hold different beliefs or no belief at all, and yet here you are. You say that you do not wish to continue this conversation, yet you keep replying to everybody with increasingly insulting assertions. I supposed you were simply naive, but now I am convinced that you are indeed pulling our leg.
I have read Flat Earth publications just out of interest. In fact the wife of the Flat Earth Society was herself an Australian. It did me no harm to read their 'propaganda'. I have also read books on the existence of Bigfoot, the Little People etc I have also read the Koran, the Bible (KJV and Good News version), the Book of Mormon, the mythology of various cultures etc If you were secure enough in your Christian beliefs than reading about other religions or beliefs wouldn't harm you.