First-Timer's Impressions of Deep Space Nine

[Jimmy Bob]

The Jem'Hadar

Oh great, now we're onto the silly "let's go camping" episode. How pointless.

I dunno, I kinda like the next episode. It's the one where I actually started to like Nog a lot more.

A family bonding camping trip, and some slapstick hijinks in the runabout. And this was the season finale?

It gets really good once the titular Jem'Hadar shows up though, the Jem'Hadar being that rabbit thing they try (and fail) to hunt for dinner. Quark accidentally throwing that spear into Jake's eye was hilarious.

I really don't have anything to add to that. I was very surprised that a season finale would be so made for tv 90's family film.

The dad trying to connect with his son, the funny uncle, camping trip... very 1994.

Then again, I approach these old sci-fi shows as vintage material and I just turn in my amateur historian mode.

Means I did not hate it and was even fascinated how this could be a season finale.

But the ending, while not exactly "rocks!", really gives that "I want more now!" feeling. Even though the Jem'Hadar don't seem to be anything special. Kinda pussies actually.

 

[Can]

But the ending, while not exactly "rocks!", really gives that "I want more now!" feeling. Even though the Jem'Hadar don't seem to be anything special. Kinda pussies actually

Pussies which destroyed a Galaxy class starship with a suicide run...

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Season 2 Impressions

How to describe a season that has a camping trip as it's finale?

Boring?

Hmm.. not really. There were a lot of interesting episodes.

Peaceful?

I guess. Perhaps I will have a completely different view of this season later, something like "back when they were all happy" times, but yeah... surprisingly slow and peaceful.

So did the writers have a contract which promised them that they have those 7 seasons no matter what and thus they can take all the time they want? Because if this show would have been cancelled after this finale there wouldn't be much to say about it.

Some interesting moments like Odo's past, sets up a threat that has no real dread at the moment, but mostly aimless (or not, depends if the experience of later seasons makes you more wise or something).

Characters

In this section I describe what I know about the characters after this season.

Truth be told, I only strongly remember Bashir, O'Brien and Garak from this season. Everyone else is just vague.

Sisko - recently I saw this opening - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zge345LB5ZM - to a series called "A Man Called Hawk." I now know more about Hawk, from that opening, than I know about Sisko after 2 seasons. Okay, I'm over-exaggerating. I can put together a picture of sorts of him, but he's not exactly the writer's favorite.

Sisko is a very bright mind. He has excellent people reading skills, he just sees through them immediately. And he doesn't seem to have a moral code in the way like Picard or Janeway have. Janeway has the Starfleet's Officialy Approved Ethical Thinking and Picard has some sort of Picardian Humanism.

It's not like Sisko doesn't have a moral code, it's just it doesn't make him act so anal like Janeway or Picard. It doesn't rule his behaviour as much. He's not stubborn. More keeps it to himself. Acts according to it in silence, doesn't show his moral code off, keeps it a secret.

He's a man who wears masks to achieve the goal he is truly after.

I guess.

Kira - who? Oh the preacher's whore? Yeah I saw her in couple of episodes.

Quark - Quark is sometimes the heroic Bogart and sometimes he's the annoying scared screaming in terror funny guy. Sometimes he's the brilliant businessman, sometimes he's the rogue with a heart of gold, sometimes he's caring, sometimes he's a complete bastard. Not completely consistent in my opinion.

Odo - yeah, Odo. I don't have anything new to add to the impressions I had of him in first season. There are certain nuances added to it. It's more drawn out. Odo is just a construction by a scared and confused blob. And that blob has daddy issues.

Bashir - He's a good kid. He really loves Garak. And O'Brien. As a friend of course. Wonder what draws him to Garak and O'Brien anyway? Is there something common between Garak and O'Brien?

It's good to have Bashir as your friend. Very few would go to that extent to save someone like he did in The Wire.

It's also remarkable how he doesn't let any mean things people might say affect him. Just shrugs it off.

O'Brien - He was everywhere in this season. I think of this season and O'Brien comes first in mind. And then Garak and Bashir. I love to watch him. He has that everyman thing working for him. He's like Trip.

Funny that their both engineers. Hmm...

But what I was actually going for is that when they torture O'Brien, I sympathize with the guy immediately and want to him to succeed against all odds. He's that sort of a character.

I also find it great that he's a family man, middle aged and not very fit and he's this manly man in this tense situations.

Question for the wider circle. If you happened to watch DS9 when you was a little boy, did you like O'Brien? Like very much? Like "I wish dad was like O'Brien"?

Dax - she's grown from "I am Curazon" to "I am Jadzia." And she seems to be change between the promiscuous worldly tomboy and the not so bold or wise young girl personalities. She's also best friends with Kira, but that happened off-screen.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

But the ending, while not exactly "rocks!", really gives that "I want more now!" feeling. Even though the Jem'Hadar don't seem to be anything special. Kinda pussies actually

Pussies which destroyed a Galaxy class starship with a suicide run...

I was sad because I liked the captain of that ship. But I didn't get that dread.

Perhaps I was distracted by Nog and Jake overacting.

 

[Navaros]

Means I did not hate it and was even fascinated how this could be a season finale.

But the ending, while not exactly "rocks!", really gives that "I want more now!" feeling. Even though the Jem'Hadar don't seem to be anything special. Kinda pussies actually.

The Jem'Hadar is a masterpiece of an episode and totally fitting to be a season finale. It is certainly among the top 5 episodes in the first 2 seasons of DS9.

I don't think you have thus far communicated what you didn't like about it and why, other than Nog and Jake's acting, which was fine in this episode (although Lofton was unquestionably a very bad actor in Season 1...he had learned to act well by The Jem'Hadar).

It started with a camping trip, sure, and that camping trip went horribly wrong. That's the point. They weren't expecting a gigantic threat to invade their way of life, but it does. Now they learn that that are consequences for them assuming they have free reign to do whatever they want, like exploring the GQ without permission. Springboarding those ideas off of a camping trip is perfect.

But, what do you think would have been better to do instead?

I have no idea where you are getting the idea that Jem'Hadar are pussies. Where did you get that idea from?

Quark does have the traits you listed. However, I don't think Quark is 'inconsistent' as you said, but rather he is deep and multifaceted. That's what makes him so intriguing, and a great character. I guess it could be said that one-dimensional characters with no unique traits (i.e. the main characters of the other modern Trek shows) are more 'consistent' because they have nothing to do other than one thing: be generic and bland. But that type of 'consistency' is not a good thing.

Odo is also a great, deep, multifacted character as can be seen in S2 episodes like Shadowplay and Necessary Evil; both of which are compelling character studies of Odo. I'm not sure from your comments if you like or dislike Odo. Do you like or dislike Odo?

So did the writers have a contract which promised them that they have those 7 seasons no matter what and thus they can take all the time they want? Because if this show would have been cancelled after this finale there wouldn't be much to say about it.

Season 1 and 2 of DS9 were largely hamstrung by Berman. After S2, Berman left the day-to-day running of the DS9 show in the hands of other, much better, men because he was busying himself with mucking up Voyager instead. Luckily for DS9!

I agree with you that S1 and S2 of DS9 do not make for a great show on the whole, other than with a few masterpiece episodes like Captive Pursuit, The Wire, Necessary Evil, Shadowplay, The Jem'Hadar etc.

That changes as of S3 and on, and DS9 becomes a great show on the whole, due to Berman's diminished influence.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I can sum up The Collaborator and Tribunal in one sentence: nice try, but it doesn't work for me.

I can see the ambition and I applaud that, but I didn't find either particularly entertaining.

The Jem'Hadar, however... This is one of the most important episodes of DS9 and I like how it starts off looking like it's going to be rubbish before turning into something massively awesome. The ante has been upped. Nothing's the same any more.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

The Jem'Hadar is a masterpiece of an episode and totally fitting to be a season finale. It is certainly among the top 5 episodes in the first 2 seasons of DS9.

Okay.

I don't think you have thus far communicated what you didn't like about it and why, other than Nog and Jake's acting, which was fine in this episode (although Lofton was unquestionably a very bad actor in Season 1...he had learned to act well by The Jem'Hadar).

It didn't evoke much of anything in me. That's about it. I wasn't blown away by "omg Ira completely fucked me, he's a genius and here I was thinking this is stupid." It was the same even after the Jem'Hadar arrived for me. A funny 90's sci-fi show episode. Historically interesting.

It started with a camping trip, sure, and that camping trip went horribly wrong. That's the point.

Lot's of things have points. Doesn't mean that they work.

But, what do you think would have been better to do instead?

Dunno. I think they should have made the word Dominion carry a bit more dread in the beginning, in those random mentions.

And make the first meeting more mysterious. Not rhino-men who have a fetish for klingons. Like everyone else in that century.

I have no idea where you are getting the idea that Jem'Hadar are pussies. Where did you get that idea from?

They don't scare me at the moment. I've yet to see future seasons. I don't see the show from the point where it ends, but where it is in season 2 with no knowledge of the future.

Odo is also a great, deep, multifacted character as can be seen in S2 episodes like Shadowplay and Necessary Evil; both of which are compelling character studies of Odo. I'm not sure from your comments if you like or dislike Odo. Do you like or dislike Odo?

I pretty much love both Odo and Quark.

"In this section I describe what I know about the characters after this season."

Might have missed that. Also - http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3950033&postcount=141

Season 1 and 2 of DS9 were largely hamstrung by Berman. After S2, Berman left the day-to-day running of the DS9 show in the hands of other, much better, men because he was busying himself with mucking up Voyager instead. Luckily for DS9!

That wasn't exactly what I asked, but it's good to know that Berman's evil ways were stopped.

 

[DevilEyes]

Kira - who? Oh the preacher's whore? Yeah I saw her in couple of episodes.

Man, you take jealous jilted suitor to a whole new level, don't you? Though I suppose it's still better than this reaction...

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Actually I was hoping to refer to how she was very background character in this season, and other than her fling with Bareil, she didn't too much.

I know. I'm amazed how unbearably smug I've been sounding late myself.

 

[DevilEyes]

Actually I was hoping to refer to how she was very background character in this season, and other than her fling with Bareil, she didn't too much.

I know. I'm amazed how unbearably smug I've been sounding late myself.

Well, she was hardly a background character in the Circle trilogy or Necessary Evil, though they were in the early part of the season and your memory might be short and towards the end there was The Collaborator and she got to travel to the MU and meet the evil version of herself in Crossover.

DS9 is a real ensemble show, and it divides the screentime and storylines among the cast, so none of them really get to feature prominently in more than 4-5 episodes per season at this point. In later seasons there will be more... epic events and 'event episodes' which will have everyone engaged in the story.

Odo got one really awesome centric episode this season (Necessary Evil) and another one that might not have been as great as an episode but was also a great character piece for him (The Alternate), and in both of them we got to learn a lot more about his past. He has many great moments with Quark, and his relationship with Kira gets developed further. So I'm not sure what is there to complain in that department. (Though that's nothing compared to what's to come for Odo... very soon )

Speaking of Odo, there's a brief moment in The Collaborator that hints at a development that's going to become very important from season 3 onward, but it seems you've missed it.

Sisko is still not that well developed at this point - this starts with season 3 - but his speech in The Maquis and his storyline there is a step in the right direction.

This season also developed several important recurring characters: Garak, Dukat, Winn, and we learned more about Cardassians in general, and several plotlines are introduced that will be followed upon in the rest of the show: Winn becoming the kai, the Maquis, the Mirror Universe, and of course the introduction of the Dominion.

 

[Navaros]

It didn't evoke much of anything in me. That's about it. I wasn't blown away by "omg Ira completely fucked me, he's a genius and here I was thinking this is stupid." It was the same even after the Jem'Hadar arrived for me. A funny 90's sci-fi show episode. Historically interesting.

At what points was the episode funny? I find dread o'plenty in this episode. I.e. when the Jemmy is talking smack to Sisko like Sisko is a child, and Sisko can't do a darn thing about it. Stuff like that doesn't happen every day.

Lot's of things have points. Doesn't mean that they work.

Ah, but it did work. Are you saying it didn't work for you because it was too funny? Did you find the Jem'Hadar talking smack to Sisko to be funny? Or them invading the station at will and talking smack to Kira? I find all that stuff dreadful, not funny.

Dunno. I think they should have made the word Dominion carry a bit more dread in the beginning, in those random mentions.

That would have been much worse. It would have been like every time Jadzia tells a lame Curzon story when she says, "Curzon did this, Curzon did that..." in the most boring, generic, lifeless way possible. TV shows are for showing, not telling. Trying to "tell" of the Dominion's dread instead of showing would have made those tellings fail as hard as Jadzia's obnoxious stories do.

Instead, with the Dominion, the DS9 showed the dread by hitting the nail on the head as hard as they possibly could, which was the perfect way to go!

And make the first meeting more mysterious. Not rhino-men who have a fetish for klingons. Like everyone else in that century.

There is mystery o'plenty. As of The Jem'Hadar episode, you don't know who the Jem'Hadar answer to (remember when the Jem'Hadar says: "I won't be the one asking the questions." You don't know the extent of their strength and weaknesses. All you know at this point is that they are capable of kicking major butt via their mysterious prowess.

Actually I was hoping to refer to how she was very background character in this season, and other than her fling with Bareil, she didn't too much.

It would never be a bad thing if Kira were a background instead of main character. That way there would be less whining from her and other Bajorans almost every time they are on-screen.

Unfortunately, S2 is not like that. Regrettably, Kira and the other Bajorans' incessant whining features very prominently in both S1 and S2.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

I.e. when the Jemmy is talking smack to Sisko like Sisko is a child, and Sisko can't do a darn thing about it. Stuff like that doesn't happen every day.

Depends where you live I guess.

Did you find the Jem'Hadar talking smack to Sisko to be funny? Or them invading the station at will and talking smack to Kira? I find all that stuff dreadful, not funny.

Yes.

TV shows are for showing, not telling. Trying to "tell" of the Dominion's dread instead of showing would have made those tellings fail as hard as Jadzia's obnoxious stories do.

But that's what they did. They told, instead of showing.

Instead, with the Dominion, the DS9 showed the dread by hitting the nail on the head as hard as they possibly could, which was the perfect way to go!

You don't know the extent of their strength and weaknesses. All you know at this point is that they are capable of kicking major butt via their mysterious prowess.

I've seen the Search now. Brilliant Odo episode, but the Dominion? Still meh.

It would never be a bad thing if Kira were a background instead of main character. That way there would be less whining from her and other Bajorans almost every time they are on-screen.

Unfortunately , S2 is not like that. Regrettably, Kira and the other Bajorans' incessant whining features very prominently in both S1 and S2.

Okay.

Jemmies are pussies. Even Scott Bakula would rip one's head off and shit down it's neck.

There wasn't actually enough of bajorans in this season, only some two or three episodes.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

The Search

So the changelings are behind all of this? That's very brilliant.

Episodes like this make me feel like I'm reading some early-mid book in a humongous fantasy saga. I mean it as a good thing.

I can't actually remember much from The Search I. It really seems it was just 40 minutes about them getting on that ship and flying with it. In a way this season finale and premiere remind me of ENT Season 2 finale and 3 premiere.

You know, when immediately coming from a season finale to a season premiere, the small changes in hair are always very noticeable.

Odo, Terry Farrel, Kira and Sisko all looked slightly different.

Wonder if this episode makes Picard's stand in Pegasus seem a bit hypocritical? I'm referring to the whole cloaking device business.

I didn't know that Seska was a double agent in Romulan Empire before. She has been like everywhere in these 3 last years of her life.

Odo really came to a full circle in this episode. Everything that happened to him in this past few seasons makes so much sense now.

This is what this episode told me about changelings:

Changelings are much more... they're not just fluid lifeforms, but also fluid conciousness, identity. If Odo had been a rock, instead of Odo, then he would have been a perfectly normal rock.

So thus the person Odo itself is a shape in itself. But that's where Odo's self-awareness comes from, his Odo identity. And that's why it was hard for him to be the rock. Or the spoon.

And the changeling way of life is like a illustration for some pantheistic (or even panentheistic) theology.

"God's the great life source. Jesus makes us reconnect with that life source. Sin is a separation from the life force, it's not what you do, it's just a symptom - being cut off and alone from life source equals death (or hell, in the interpretation of those less enlightened)."

And now I could write Odo as this really gnostic character who denounces God and creates his own world. All that faustian symbolism. Odo the Humanist with allegorical overtones. But you know, Rene Auberjonois did a role in this very involving console game called Legacy of Kain, which is one big gnostic mess. Fans of that game series do that sort of talk much better. I recommend it. Lot's of Star Trek actors (mostly guest) voice acted in it.

But back to Odo as a spoon. Without the guidance of his native culture, Odo has constructed himself his own identity. It in some ways is very limited compared to how other changelings can be and are. But he is not ruled by the culture or nationalism of his people. Because he had to think on his own. Through observations, he created himself a larger human.. wait, sentienist values. He doesn't have much respect for authority, but he cares about justice.

So on one hand he is limited, since he is mostly grown-up in this humanoid world, and yet he sees more than the humanoids around him and his own people.

And, I have no idea what DevilEyes said I should have noticed in Collaborator, but I noticed here that Kira and Odo are very... nurturing.

And there was other thing I liked very much. The way Search II was directed. You have no idea that Sisko story is not real. And yet, Sisko story is just so unreal even before you know it. And I liked that inner confusion it made me feel. It's a normal episode, but something is not just right. Very subtle and effective.

 

[flemm]

Kira - who? Oh the preacher's whore? Yeah I saw her in couple of episodes.

Kira wears the pants

Along with Quark and Odo, the Major is one of the more fully developed characters at this point in the series. She begins as a determined resistance fighter with xenophobic tendencies who is incensed at the Federation's presence and angry about being posted to the station (Emissary). She has divided loyalties, which are tested immediately, but she chooses to renounce violent extremism (Past Prologue). She begins to deal with her personal trauma (Battle Lines), and racist tendencies (Duet). Improving life for the Bajorans means making sacrifices (Progress) and building alliances (In the Hands of the Prophets).

Kira's season 2 material is about coming to grips with the moral ambiguity of her past and present, as well as that of her people. The enemy is not the Federation, but power-hungry Bajorans. Her place is on the station, where both internal and external threats can be faced (opening 3-episode arc). Kira's activities in the resistance forced her to make moral compromises she has never really confronted (Necessary Evil). What's true for her is true for even the most admired spiritual figures of Bajor, a truth she is compelled to reveal, despite its implications for Bajor's immediate future (The Collaborator). Is rebuilding Bajor incompatible with compassion toward other peoples in need (Sanctuary)? Should Nana Visitor be wearing a tighter outfit (Crossover)?

On personal level, Kira has overcome her distrust of Sisko, formed an ongoing romanctic relationship with Bareil that enters into conflict with her professional duties, is involved in the series' strongest bond of friendship at this stage with Odo, and has a nemesis in the form of Kai Winn. To the extent that a character is the sum of his or her past history, beliefs, values, goals, motivations, attitudes, loyalties and relationships, we probably know more about Kira than anyone else at this point.

 

[TheGodBen]

Means I did not hate it and was even fascinated how this could be a season finale.

But the ending, while not exactly "rocks!", really gives that "I want more now!" feeling.

You know, I'm going to do something controversial around these parts and agree with you, but just a little bit. Unfortunately, I did not see this episode in order, the first episode I saw that dealt with the Dominion came later this season, I don't think I even saw The Jem'Hadar until I had already seen the start of season 6. Had I not known how big and how dangerous the Dominion really are then I'm not sure how effective this episode would have been, we've had aliens of the week in Star Trek many times before that seemed big and powerful but nothing ever came of them in subsequent episode. The Dominion could easily have fallen into the same trap.

Luckily, they don't.

Even though the Jem'Hadar don't seem to be anything special. Kinda pussies actually.

You'll learn more about the Jem'Hadar soon enough, it will help you to understand them better, and possibly why they're so feared.

I guess. Perhaps I will have a completely different view of this season later, something like "back when they were all happy" times, but yeah... surprisingly slow and peaceful.

So did the writers have a contract which promised them that they have those 7 seasons no matter what and thus they can take all the time they want? Because if this show would have been cancelled after this finale there wouldn't be much to say about it.

Yes and no. TNG was hugely successful and so DS9 started out with a very big audience for a sci-fi show. The expectation was that DS9 would be able to last the 6 seasons that TNG had at that point, and that's why the actors were all contracted for 6 years initially. However, there was no plan for the show during the early years, they expected it to be like TNG on a space station. In fact, even though they were name dropping the Dominion in season 2 they had no real concept of what they were beyond an "anti-Federation" and the hope that they would become the show's primary antagonist in the future.

Looking back, there's three distinct eras to the show. You've just finished the first, the pre-Dominion era. At that point the show was still a lot like TNG with a lot of standalone episodes, with Bajoran politics and culture being at the centre of the show. But there was also a great deal of development for the Cardassians and Ferengi, and the Maquis were introduced. If DS9 was a building then the first two seasons are the foundation upon which the rest was built, and (hopefully) once you see the rest of the show you'll appreciate this era for setting up the rest of the show.

The era you've just entered is the Dominion Cold War period. The very existence of the Dominion and the threat they pose causes major upheavals across the entire Alpha Quadrant, often aided by the work of Dominion operatives. This is a time of great change where events with the significance of the Khitomer accords, or the battle of Wolf 359, will occur on an annual basis. Those that you once thought were enemies will become friends, and those that you thought were friends will become enemies. To say that everything is different now would be a cliché, and it would also be incorrect because the show will still retain many familiar elements, but the status quo will definitely be shaken up many times over the next few seasons.

And the third era is known as "The Dawn of the Third Age of Mankind", whatever that means.

It's not like Sisko doesn't have a moral code, it's just it doesn't make him act so anal like Janeway or Picard. It doesn't rule his behaviour as much. He's not stubborn. More keeps it to himself. Acts according to it in silence, doesn't show his moral code off, keeps it a secret.

This is one of the best things about Sisko, he definitely has a sense of morality, he's just more practical about it. My favourite moment in Star Trek, perhaps in all of television, is Sisko convincing himself that the the immoral thing to do was also the right thing to do. You should know it when you see it.

Quark - Quark is sometimes the heroic Bogart and sometimes he's the annoying scared screaming in terror funny guy. Sometimes he's the brilliant businessman, sometimes he's the rogue with a heart of gold, sometimes he's caring, sometimes he's a complete bastard. Not completely consistent in my opinion.

I'll agree with you here too, Quark can be inconsistent at times, especially in the early seasons. I'm still annoyed about what the writers made him do in Invasive Procedures.

Question for the wider circle. If you happened to watch DS9 when you was a little boy, did you like O'Brien? Like very much? Like "I wish dad was like O'Brien"?

Gods no, he's a Dub!

Speaking of Odo, there's a brief moment in The Collaborator that hints at a development that's going to become very important from season 3 onward, but it seems you've missed it.

Hell, even the writers missed it. They just saw it in René's performance and decided to run with it

Dunno. I think they should have made the word Dominion carry a bit more dread in the beginning, in those random mentions.

Personally, I prefer it this way. At the start of B5's second season there was five episodes in a row hinting at a coming darkness, and I use the word hinting loosely, I likened it to being hit on the head with an inflatable hammer that goes "wheeeee!" It was too much too soon. On the other hand, DS9 was very restrained and was so subtle with the Dominion references that you might not notice them unless you were looking. The first reference to them suggested they were big and powerful, the other two informed us that they were conquerors. That was enough for me.

The Search

Ron Moore! Finally!

So the changelings are behind all of this? That's very brilliant.

Indeed, it was a brilliant twist that not only provided some great character moments for Odo, but it also gave the Dominion the motivation they needed. It was completely unplanned, but when the writers returned to work at the start of season three a few of them had the same idea but they thought it was too out there. When discussing it amongst themselves they realised that it was doable and they adapted their concept of the Dominion to make it work.

You know, when immediately coming from a season finale to a season premiere, the small changes in hair are always very noticeable.

Luckily, Jadzia's hair will be back to normal in the next episode. But Odo's belt will become a plot point later.

Wonder if this episode makes Picard's stand in Pegasus seem a bit hypocritical? I'm referring to the whole cloaking device business.

No, because the Romulans gave Starfleet the okay to use their tech on the Defiant. The problem in The Pegasus was that by developing their own cloaking tech the Federation were breaking a treaty they had with the Romulans, here they're not.

 

[Navaros]

But that's what they did. They told, instead of showing.

I disagree. IMO, saying "The Dominion is big and scary and you must be terrified of them" = telling.

On the other hand, instead doing what DS9 did, is showing, namely by:

A> Having them invade the station at will and mock the authority of Kira and the other staff

B> Having them imprison the Sisko and mock his authority

C> Having them annihilate top-grade Federation ships

Yes the Jem'Hadar in The Jem'Hadar did tell how dreadful they are, but only after they took actions (i.e. invading the station)-showed-that made it clear they were not just spouting hot air.

 

[DevilEyes]

Hell, even the writers missed it. They just saw it in René's performance and decided to run with it

I've read Rene saying that, too, but he must have been referring to previous episodes. I have DS9 scripts that I downloaded a while ago - I can't tell you where from, not because it's illegal yada yada but because I really don't remember. It seems that by The Collaborator, it was already in the script.

(This is not really a spoiler since it's the script from The Collaborator, but it pretty much points at what the development is hinted in the scene: )

Spoiler: not really a spoiler, but points at the nature of the later development

Odo starts working on the computer. Kira sits down on his desk, the weight of the world on her shoulders. Odo can't help but notice.

ODO
Are you all right?

KIRA
I'm fine.

ODO
You don't look fine.

KIRA
It's nothing.

ODO
(doesn't believe her)
If you say so.

KIRA
I mean, he says he's not guilty. I
know he's not guilty...

ODO
But you're afraid he's guilty.

KIRA
(a beat, then simply)
I love him, Odo.

Odo doesn't know how to respond. This is a little too
personal for him. And though he would never admit it, he's a little jealous.

On the other hand, the moment in The Maquis (at 8:15-8:21 in this video)

Spoiler: slightly spoilery about another development in later seasons

that seems to have started the more ambiguous Kira/Dukat dynamic (or any kind of dynamic, really - they barely shared a scene previously) appears to have completely originated in the shooting of the episode.

DEEP SPACE: "The Maquis, II" - 02/17/94 - ACT THREE 36.

28 CONTINUED: (2)

DUKAT
That's correct. Then I would lock
onto the ship with my tractor beam
and tow it and its cargo back to the
station. Very simple. Very
effective.

SISKO
And needlessly bloody.

KIRA
Sounds like a Cardassian plan to me.

SISKO
Chief, fire a phaser across their
bow. Let's see if we can't get their
attention.

O'BRIEN
Yes, sir.

He hits a panel.

29 EXT. SPACE (OPTICAL)

The Runabout fires a warning shot at the Xepolite ship.

30 INT. MEKONG

As before.

O'BRIEN
That woke them up. They're hailing
us.

Kira, Sisko, and O'Brien can't help but give Dukat triumphant
looks.

SISKO
On my monitor, Chief.

31 INCLUDE MONITOR (OPTICAL)

The XEPOLITE CAPTAIN appears on screen.

XEPOLITE
(on monitor)
I am Drofo Awa, Hetman of this vessel.
What do you want from us?

DEEP SPACE: "The Maquis, II" - 02/17/94 - ACT THREE 37.

31 CONTINUED:

SISKO
I'm Commander Benjamin Sisko of the
United Federation of Planets. We
believe you're carrying Cardassian
weapons to their colonies in the
Demilitarized Zone.

XEPOLITE
(on monitor, sincerely)
Then you believe wrong, Commander.
My ship is carrying five kilotons of
Regreein wheat husks, nothing more.

SISKO
Five kilotons. That's a lot of wheat
husks. With your permission I'd
like to come aboard and see what
that looks like.

XEPOLITE
(on monitor)
Permission denied. Any attempt to
board my vessel will be considered
an act of piracy. Is that clear?

SISKO
Call it anything you like, but you're
not going anywhere until we search
your ship.

XEPOLITE
(on monitor,
threatening tone)
In that case, Commander...

DUKAT
(to the Xepolite)
In that case, you'll do exactly as
you're told. You'll allow us free
access to your ship, so that we can
verify that you are indeed carrying
Cardassian weapons into the
Demilitarized Zone.

DEEP SPACE: "The Maquis, II" - 02/17/94 - ACT THREE 38.

31 CONTINUED: (2)

DUKAT (cont'd)
You will then follow us back to Deep
Space Nine, where your cargo will be
confiscated and you will make a full
confession detailing everything you
know about the smuggling of weapons
into the Demilitarized Zone. You
will then sign that confession, after
which you and your ship will be
allowed on your way. Is that clear.

XEPOLITE
(shocked)
I don't understand... you're a
Cardassian.

DUKAT
I'm not just any Cardassian. I'm
Gul Dukat, Commander of the Second
Order. You have fifteen seconds to
lower your shields or we'll destroy
your ship.

The Xepolite looks panicky.

XEPOLITE
No... wait.

DUKAT
Ten seconds.

XEPOLITE
It's not that simple.

DUKAT
Seven seconds.

XEPOLITE
I've already been paid.

DUKAT
Four seconds.

XEPOLITE
Stop counting... stop counting.

O'BRIEN
He's lowering his shields.

DEEP SPACE: "The Maquis, II" - 02/17/94 - ACT THREE 39.

31 CONTINUED: (3)

XEPOLITE
(on monitor, a defeated
man)
I'll await your arrival, Commander.

The monitor goes blank.

DUKAT
(to Sisko)
I think you can take over from here.

And as Sisko nods, impressed with Dukat's victory...

FADE OUT.

END OF ACT THREE

 

[Jimmy Bob]

But that's what they did. They told, instead of showing.

I disagree. IMO, saying "The Dominion is big and scary and you must be terrified of them" = telling.

On the other hand, instead doing what DS9 did, is showing, namely by:

A> Having them invade the station at will and mock the authority of Kira and the other staff

B> Having them imprison the Sisko and mock his authority

C> Having them annihilate top-grade Federation ships

Yes the Jem'Hadar in The Jem'Hadar did tell how dreadful they are, but only after they took actions (i.e. invading the station)-showed-that made it clear they were not just spouting hot air.

It seems that you and I talked about different things. I meant "they told, not showed" in those random mentions throughout the season. In Jem'Hadar they, yes, showed.

 

[TheGodBen]

I've read Rene saying that, too, but he must have been referring to previous episodes. I have DS9 scripts that I downloaded a while ago - I can't tell you where from, not because it's illegal yada yada but because I really don't remember. It seems that by The Collaborator, it was already in the script.

Spoiler: Odo's secret pet vole

I read that on MA as a quote from episode co-writer Gary Holland. Here it is:

Writer Gary Holland was surprised at how Odo reacted to finding out that Kira loved Bareil, as that was not how he had written the scene. Like many fans, he took it as an indication that Odo was secretly in love with Kira, and this secret passion directly influenced Holland to write "Children of Time" - the episode where Odo finally reveals the truth. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

Perhaps Behr and Wolfe added that into the script without his knowledge.

 

[flemm]

Spoiler: Odo's secret pet vole

I read that on MA as a quote from episode co-writer Gary Holland. Here it is:

Writer Gary Holland was surprised at how Odo reacted to finding out that Kira loved Bareil, as that was not how he had written the scene. Like many fans, he took it as an indication that Odo was secretly in love with Kira, and this secret passion directly influenced Holland to write "Children of Time" - the episode where Odo finally reveals the truth. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

Perhaps Behr and Wolfe added that into the script without his knowledge.

Spoiler: There might not really be a contradition here...

I'm not sure that your quote is entirely incompatible with the script provided by Devil_Eyes. Odo's look of longing in The Collaborator is a lot stronger than the script's indication of a "little jealousy" that Odo "wouldn't admit to himself." It might be a question of degree or emphasis on Auberjonois's part.