Dumb and Bizarre Trek Novel Moments...

[RonG]

Personally, I think the Federation got off easily!

This reminded me how, when originally reading Destiny, I had a nagging sensation, that when it would all be over, the Federation and the Trek franchise would be left in a post-apocalyptic and bleak/desperate setting, with the UFP destroyed (a-la the Commonwealth on Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda).

I was also quite certain that Picard would die in this trilogy, with his lineage continued via his son (in contrast to his line in Generations, on how "there would be no more picards").

I was *very* happy to see that that would not be the case (andno, I don't agree with those who claim that the post-Destiny setting *is* post-apocalyptic, as in bleak and hopeless...),

and yet another thing to Destiny's favor - making me actually *fear* for the fate of Star Trek's icons (Picard and co.) and foundations (the UFP itself), and being so emotionally invested in the story

Really? That was part of my problem with it, I never had a moment where I felt there was any serious danger to the main characters. Yes, billions died, but there is no emotional weight to that.

So how in your eyes is Destiny different from any other Trek story, especially TrekLit?

Has there been a time when you thought the main characters *were* in danger?

tie-in fiction, as a rule of thumb AFAIK, won't endanger the main (TV-established) characters, so how come you have a problem with it in Destiny?

IMO, that's what made Destiny fresh and different. I didn't have the certainty that the main characters would survive unscathed..

 

[JoeZhang]

IMO, that's what made Destiny fresh and different. I didn't have the certainty that the main characters would survive unscathed..

But that was my point, I don't understand why you would think that?

As for why it was different from any other Trek books, I think it was simply that in this case, the scale of what was happening brought the fact that nothing could actually happen clearly and centrally into focus in a way that other books hasn't.

So, in most stories, the character try to solve a problem on planet X and they might be in a bit of danger in the way but that's not the main issue. Here the fact that they could all die was the problem, which paradoxically meant that it has no weight to me - if that makes any sense?

 

[RonG]

IMO, that's what made Destiny fresh and different. I didn't have the certainty that the main characters would survive unscathed..

But that was my point, I don't understand why you would think that?

As for why it was different from any other Trek books, I think it was simply that in this case, the scale of what was happening brought the fact that nothing could actually happen clearly and centrally into focus in a way that other books hasn't.

So, in most stories, the character try to solve a problem on planet X and they might be in a bit of danger in the way but that's not the main issue. Here the fact that they could all die was the problem, which paradoxically meant that it has no weight to me - if that makes any sense?

It actually does make sense, though I respectfully disagree

To me, Destiny *succeeded* in making me fear for the main characters in a way no other Trek novel had done before.

Also, Before Dishonor proved that no TV character was actually safe, so if Janeway could die, logically so could Picard, for example...

As for the other Trek stories, there *had* been stories in the past where the scale was grand and a lot was on the line, such as Genesis Wave and Maximum Warp, to name a couple of examples...

 

[Christopher]

(andno, I don't agree with those who claim that the post-Destiny setting *is* post-apocalyptic, as in bleak and hopeless...)

That's right. It's post-disaster, sure, the largest disaster in Federation history. But "apocalypse" in its vernacular sense* means the total destruction of the existing civilization or order. That didn't happen here. Maybe as far as a Denevan or Risan is concerned, it's post-apocalyptic, but from the standpoint of the Federation and the Alpha and Beta Quadrants as a whole, it wasn't an "apocalypse" because civilization survived and is now rebuilding.

* "Apocalypse" literally just means "revelation" or "unveiling" and is meant to apply to the Biblical prophecy of the end of the world -- it's simply the Greek name for the Biblical book called Revelation in English -- but has come to be applied through association to the end of the world itself.

(BTW, I see his actions as a result of anger and desperation, not defeat...)

Kinda the same thing, though. Picard's defeat was that he was unable to rise above his anger and desperation. Those things clouded his judgment and made him unable to see a better option, and so they were the things that defeated him.

 

[flemm]

For me, the belief that a character is actually at risk or that "anything can happen" is not a major criteria for enjoying a work of fiction. Perhaps it's my interest in theater: in both tragedy and comedy, there are no surprises about what the outcome will be. That's not what makes it work.

I'd argue that this tends to be true of fiction, generally speaking. For one thing, great fiction holds up when it is reread and revisited, and the outcome is known. "Twists" and surprise endings can be fun, but are rarely as satisfying as an outcome that flows directly from the characters' actions or motivations.

In a lot of great fiction, and especially theater, the outcome is known from the beginning: what makes the story moving or enjoyable is observing how that outcome is achieved, how the characters face up to that reality. A simple example is the early DS9 episode, Progress, which I just happened to rewatch. Basically, Kira has to get this old man off the moon where he lives. The episode is about Kira facing up to that reality and helping the older Bajoran face up to it as well.

This is pretty much the crux of the issue as far as Destiny is concerned, for me. The Borg are going to be defeated, and the Federation is going to survive. The only question is: how?

I sympathize with the sentiment that the deaths of billions upon billions of federation citizens and the destruction of multiple Federation worlds in Destiny is rather gratuitous. We have little investment in most of these worlds and these characters. It's just all too easy in fiction to destroy whole universes with a brushstroke. It's like superpowered characters in comics who keep getting stronger and stronger to the point where they are dragging planets around in attempt to recapture the fascination that "Superman" might have once exerted when he was first created. Ok, Hulk can lift a truck, but Superman can lift a MOUNTAIN!!!!! So, you're used to seeing millions die in fiction, so how about BILLIONS?!?!?! Adding zeros doesn't add much of anything to the drama, really, past a certain point.

Finally, I don't think the scale of the destruction in Destiny really strengthens the narrative, or makes it more compelling because it is more "apocalyptic." It's not the end of the world, we know that going in. What's going to determine whether the story is compelling or not is the character's journey toward that resolution, and I feel that Hernandez's story is compelling, but the others not so much. Some good points have been made, though, concerning the necessity of Picard's breakdown, so I will probably have to take a second look whenever I can find the time.

I am interested, of course, to see how subsequent novels deal with the crisis, but I think it will be challenging, to say the least, to move forward while examining what destruction on this scale would actually mean for the Federation.

 

[Thrawn]

^ Read Losing The Peace. I think the balance is struck extremely well.

 

[TerraUnam]

I think the death scene of Tuvok's son Elieth on Deneva was one of the most touching pieces of Destiny. We didn't just get billions killed, we got personal shots of the action. You really can't ask for better in such a destructive narrative unless you want a gore orgy just for the sake of having a gore orgy. Destiny was better than that.

 

[flemm]

^ Read Losing The Peace. I think the balance is struck extremely well.

I have and, while I understand that this novel was trying to deal with the aftermath of Destiny, it struck me that it was all too easy for Picard to recover, basically one awkward apology to Geordi and that was pretty much the extent of it.

As for the Federation as a whole, what impact did this abolutely unprecedented catastrophe actually have, as established in this novel? Basically, there is suffering within the Federation's borders, so people are going to have to wake up and help each other. It's pretty thin.

Part of the issue is, precisely, the way Destiny ended: the gods intervene and so the enemy that had crippled the Federation simply vanishes. I'm not sure what this corresponds to in reality. A society that had suffered a defeat on the scale of the Federation would either have to be saved by a neighboring power and then be reconstructed with the aid of that power, a bit like Europe after WW2. Or they would simply be defeated by the invading power and live under the yoke of the oppressor. Or they would somehow repel the invasion and so at least have the satisfaction of ultimate victory to counter-balance their sacrifices.

I'm not sure what it would mean for a society to be utterly defeated only to see their enemy miraculously vanquished by a higher power, but I'm pretty sure that Losing the Peace barely scratches the surface of what that might mean. Basically, this novel describes a situation that might correspond to say, an earthquake taking place in one part of the world, while the complacent citizens of another part of the world are oblivious to the scope of the catastrophe until they are confronted with it more directly. That's a beginning, maybe, but really that can only be a beginning. What happened to the Federation in Destiny is much, much worse than any natural disaster could ever be.

EDIT: For one thing, there'd likely be widespread fascination with the Caeliar and Hernandez in particular. Are the savoirs of the Federation even mentioned in Losing the Peace?

 

[Thrawn]

^ I don't really see as I agree. If a giant meteor hit California, and wiped out everything west of the Rockies (yes I realize this is not a great analogy because there'd be nuclear winter and whatever but just roll with it), I think the situation in the eastern 2/3 of the country would be more or less consistent with the way that the Federation is portrayed in Losing The Peace.

And given the summary recently posted for Paths Of Disharmony, which takes place more than a year after Losing The Peace, it seems like the effects of the Destiny invasion are not going away anytime soon.

 

[Christopher]

Part of the issue is, precisely, the way Destiny ended: the gods intervene and so the enemy that had crippled the Federation simply vanishes. I'm not sure what this corresponds to in reality. A society that had suffered a defeat on the scale of the Federation would either have to be saved by a neighboring power and then be reconstructed with the aid of that power, a bit like Europe after WW2. Or they would simply be defeated by the invading power and live under the yoke of the oppressor. Or they would somehow repel the invasion and so at least have the satisfaction of ultimate victory to counter-balance their sacrifices.

As has been stated before, it's not necessarily appropriate to treat the Borg as an "enemy" in the conventional sense. The Borg are more a force of nature than a nation or an army. A Borg invasion story is a disaster story, not a war story. How did New Orleans and the Gulf states react to the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? They didn't "win a fight" against the hurricane. They weathered the storm and there was a lot of destruction, but then the storm ended and all that was left was the rebuilding. It's not about winning or losing, it's about surviving.

It's hard for us, living on Earth and having only human history to study, to imagine what astropolitics would be like. But it stands to reason that there must be powers out there which are immensely beyond us in age and advancement. So analogies to geopolitics between human nations just won't cut it. The difference in power, size, and advancement between human nations just aren't anywhere near great enough to compare. Maybe a hunter-gatherer from an isolated jungle tribe suddenly caught up in a high-tech war between industrialized nations might have some inkling of it, but it's beyond the experience of an American or European to contemplate being so grossly outmatched by another civilization. Starfaring civilizations would simply have to get used to a reality where there are beings so far beyond them as to be essentially gods, so that any notion of engaging with them on a political or military level is self-deluded. They'd just have to get used to the fact that some things were beyond their power, and learn to think of those supercivilizations the way we think of the weather and volcanoes and earthquakes.

What happened to the Federation in Destiny is much, much worse than any natural disaster could ever be.

Depends on the disaster. A hypernova could potentially wipe out all life in a vast swath of the galaxy. A large supernova could create a dead zone dozens of light-years in radius, comparable to the size of the Borg-created dead zone, although of course it would take decades and an FTL starfaring civilization would be able to shield worlds from its effects (unless the wavefront magically propagated FTL like in the '09 movie).

 

[Sci]

As for the Federation as a whole, what impact did this abolutely unprecedented catastrophe actually have, as established in this novel?

You mean, aside from huge swaths of the Federation being a dead zone and there being quite literally billions and billions of refugees requiring food, shelter, and medical treatment?

And for all that people say that Destiny is apocalyptic, as William Leisner pointed out in Losing the Peace, even the Federation's idea of a refugee camp is many, many times more humane and safer than what exists in reality. Even the Federation's idea of an apocalypse is seemingly utopian compared to what we have in reality.

Basically, there is suffering within the Federation's borders, so people are going to have to wake up and help each other. It's pretty thin.

Then why do people have such a hard time doing just that in real life?

Part of the issue is, precisely, the way Destiny ended: the gods intervene and so the enemy that had crippled the Federation simply vanishes. I'm not sure what this corresponds to in reality.

As Christopher noted, the closest analogy would be an isolated hunter-gatherer society finding itself going up against an invading industrial army and then being saved by another industrial society. But even that analogy just doesn't cut it; there's nothing in reality like the Borg/Caeliar conflict.

I'm not sure what it would mean for a society to be utterly defeated only to see their enemy miraculously vanquished by a higher power, but I'm pretty sure that Losing the Peace barely scratches the surface of what that might mean. Basically, this novel describes a situation that might correspond to say, an earthquake taking place in one part of the world, while the complacent citizens of another part of the world are oblivious to the scope of the catastrophe until they are confronted with it more directly. That's a beginning, maybe, but really that can only be a beginning. What happened to the Federation in Destiny is much, much worse than any natural disaster could ever be.

EDIT: For one thing, there'd likely be widespread fascination with the Caeliar and Hernandez in particular. Are the savoirs of the Federation even mentioned in Losing the Peace?

What makes you think the Federates would interpret it in such religious terms? They've been aware of extradimensional entities with extreme powers for over a century; they're not necessarily going to view an especially powerful alien as being divine or worthy of any more fascination than, say, a Klingon or a Romulan. They may not possess Caeliar powers, but that no more means they're going to be fixated upon the Caeliar or view them as "higher powers" than a hunter-gatherer would be fixated upon or view as "higher powers" an industrial society. At the end of the day, most Federates are going to know that for all their power, the Caeliar were just people.

 

[Christopher]

^I think my point is that those hunter-gatherers would be used to the idea that there's a lot of stuff in the world around them that's vastly beyond their power to control or comprehend, so having much of their band killed off by industrialized warfare wouldn't affect them significantly differently on a psychological level than having much of their band killed off by a flood or a disease. They'd pretty much chalk it all up to the action of forces beyond their control, and they'd be accustomed to accepting such forces as part of their reality.

For us, in the industrialized world, we can't easily comprehend the idea of a political or technological power being so completely beyond us, but we're still used to the idea that natural disasters are simply "acts of God" -- i.e. phenomena so immensely beyond our level of power that there's nothing we can do but try to anticipate, take precautions, run away if necessary, and then clean up afterward. That's why it's better to think of something like the Borg or Caeliar or Organians or Q as a force of nature rather than a political power, an "enemy" or an ally. Forces of nature are the only analogy that we industrialized peoples have left for the concept of something so completely beyond our power.

 

[Sci]

^I think my point is that those hunter-gatherers would be used to the idea that there's a lot of stuff in the world around them that's vastly beyond their power to control or comprehend, so having much of their band killed off by industrialized warfare wouldn't affect them significantly differently on a psychological level than having much of their band killed off by a flood or a disease. They'd pretty much chalk it all up to the action of forces beyond their control, and they'd be accustomed to accepting such forces as part of their reality.

For us, in the industrialized world, we can't easily comprehend the idea of a political or technological power being so completely beyond us, but we're still used to the idea that natural disasters are simply "acts of God" -- i.e. phenomena so immensely beyond our level of power that there's nothing we can do but try to anticipate, take precautions, run away if necessary, and then clean up afterward. That's why it's better to think of something like the Borg or Caeliar or Organians or Q as a force of nature rather than a political power, an "enemy" or an ally. Forces of nature are the only analogy that we industrialized peoples have left for the concept of something so completely beyond our power.

Yeah -- I wasn't disagreeing, I was mostly just arguing that, in addition to what you just said being true, it seems unlikely to me that the Federates or the hypothetical hunter-gatherers would fixated upon, or view as "higher powers" (with all the religious connotations that phrase brings), the entities (industrial societies or the Q, etc.) that are so much more powerful than themselves. They're not necessarily going to look at those more powerful entities as gods or beings worthy of fixation or reverence.

 

[flemm]

Starfaring civilizations would simply have to get used to a reality where there are beings so far beyond them as to be essentially gods, so that any notion of engaging with them on a political or military level is self-deluded. They'd just have to get used to the fact that some things were beyond their power, and learn to think of those supercivilizations the way we think of the weather and volcanoes and earthquakes.

Some good points in the posts above, and while I think a few of them are nitpick-able, I will try to get to what I see as the crux of the issue, which is: how could Federation society and values survive this experience without being altered in some fundamental way?

A couple of relevant quotes from Q Who...

Picard to Q: "How can we be prepared for that which we do not know? But I do know that we are ready to encounter it."

Picard to Guinan: "Perhaps Q did the right thing for the wrong reasons. [...] Perhaps what we most needed was a kick in our complacency, to prepare us for what lies ahead."

So, is the ultimate lesson of the encounter with the Borg that Picard was wrong, that the Federation is not ready and that the wake-up call didn't come in time: their well-being and survival in fact depend primarily on the caprices (benevolance/malevolence) of the god-like supercivilisations that surround them? It seems that this is what you are suggesting above. Wouldn't this fundamentally alter the Federations' basic values and the purpose of Starfleet? If what you describe above is the reality of galactic politics, then wouldn't the Federation's priority have to be to gain the favor of these galactic superpowers on whose actions its salvation depends?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

^I think my point is that those hunter-gatherers would be used to the idea that there's a lot of stuff in the world around them that's vastly beyond their power to control or comprehend, so having much of their band killed off by industrialized warfare wouldn't affect them significantly differently on a psychological level than having much of their band killed off by a flood or a disease. They'd pretty much chalk it all up to the action of forces beyond their control, and they'd be accustomed to accepting such forces as part of their reality.

For us, in the industrialized world, we can't easily comprehend the idea of a political or technological power being so completely beyond us, but we're still used to the idea that natural disasters are simply "acts of God" -- i.e. phenomena so immensely beyond our level of power that there's nothing we can do but try to anticipate, take precautions, run away if necessary, and then clean up afterward. That's why it's better to think of something like the Borg or Caeliar or Organians or Q as a force of nature rather than a political power, an "enemy" or an ally. Forces of nature are the only analogy that we industrialized peoples have left for the concept of something so completely beyond our power.

But the federation is much like us: they have - had - confidnce in their abilities. They've encountered superbeings before and always managed to participate meaningfully in the exchanges with them.
Until now: the Caeliar proved to be so far beyond the federation so as to negate any possibility for humans to act on something resembling their level.

Also - I understand the characterization of the borg as a force of nature. But I don't agree.
The borg posses advanced technology, intelligence, sentience, they're not blind natural forces. Therefore, the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' apply to them - with all that they imply.
They are, essentially, an army driven by hunger, the 'will to conquer'; and they, too, have proven far stronger than the federation.

It seems to me that this would lead to a loss of confidence in one's own forces, to pessimism, no longer 'boldly' go for fear of encountering something like that, rather staying home where at least the federation can claim to matter.
Until now, the federation viewed the superbeings it encountered as aliens - it didn't feel insignificant by comparison; from now on, the federation may well view them as gods - to be worshipped or feared.

 

[Sci]

Starfaring civilizations would simply have to get used to a reality where there are beings so far beyond them as to be essentially gods, so that any notion of engaging with them on a political or military level is self-deluded. They'd just have to get used to the fact that some things were beyond their power, and learn to think of those supercivilizations the way we think of the weather and volcanoes and earthquakes.

Some good points in the posts above, and while I think a few of them are nitpick-able, I will try to get to what I see as the crux of the issue, which is: how could Federation society and values survive this experience without being altered in some fundamental way?

A couple of relevant quotes from Q Who...

Picard to Q: "How can we be prepared for that which we do not know? But I do know that we are ready to encounter it."

Picard to Guinan: "Perhaps Q did the right thing for the wrong reasons. [...] Perhaps what we most needed was a kick in our complacency, to prepare us for what lies ahead."

So, is the ultimate lesson of the encounter with the Borg that Picard was wrong, that the Federation is not ready and that the wake-up call didn't come in time: their well-being and survival in fact depend primarily on the caprices (benevolance/malevolence) of the god-like supercivilisations that surround them? It seems that this is what you are suggesting above. Wouldn't this fundamentally alter the Federations' basic values and the purpose of Starfleet? If what you describe above is the reality of galactic politics, then wouldn't the Federation's priority have to be to gain the favor of these galactic superpowers on whose actions its salvation depends?

That seems improbable to me, because contact with those civilizations is simply too intermittent. Whenever such contact occurs, it always occurs on those civilizations' terms, and not the Federation's. When the Organians saved the Federation from a war with the Klingons, all of Federation foreign policy did not shift to trying to gain the Organians' favor; why would it shift towards trying to gain the Caeliar's favor (especially as the Caeliar are now gone)?

The Federation is mature enough to understand that, well, sorry, but sometimes there's just nothing you can do about something and you shouldn't change everything about yourself when it's not likely to help you any. These extradimensional entities? They're not gods, and the Federation doesn't perceive them that way. Nor is the Federation willing to genuflect to them in the hopes that they might favor them in return.

Remember, at the end of the day, the Federation doesn't view those entities that are more powerful than them as being better than them. At the end of the day, the Federation still views them as people -- and immature ones, if David Mack's Starfleet Survival Guide's description of them as bored and immature creatures that have to be emotionally manipulated to be survived is an accurate description about how the Federation reacts to creatures like the Q or Trelane.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Remember, at the end of the day, the Federation doesn't view those entities that are more powerful than them as being better than them. At the end of the day, the Federation still views them as people -- and immature ones, if David Mack's Starfleet Survival Guide's description of them as bored and immature creatures that have to be emotionally manipulated to be survived is an accurate description about how the Federation reacts to creatures like the Q or Trelane.

UNTL NOW the "federation didn't view those entities that are more powerful than them, as being better than them".
UNTIL NOW the federation viewed superbeings as "bored and immature creatures that have to be emotionally manipulated to be survived".

Well, now the federation knows exactly how insignoficant it is by comparison to those superbeings, the real distance between them.
One thing is for certain - the federation will no longer view these supercivilizations as their equals. The truth hit the federation hard - with 63 billion deaths.
Major changes in the federation philosophy are on the horizon - and they definitely won't be towards Kirk's era optimism 'we can deal with anything we encounter'.
I can very well see the federation beginning to view transcedental entities as gods after what's happened - the federation was broken, not only materially, but even more important, spiritually. The 'never give up' spirit was largely extinguished by the borg, before they, too, were easily taken care of by benevolent gods.

 

[Sci]

^I think my point is that those hunter-gatherers would be used to the idea that there's a lot of stuff in the world around them that's vastly beyond their power to control or comprehend, so having much of their band killed off by industrialized warfare wouldn't affect them significantly differently on a psychological level than having much of their band killed off by a flood or a disease. They'd pretty much chalk it all up to the action of forces beyond their control, and they'd be accustomed to accepting such forces as part of their reality.

For us, in the industrialized world, we can't easily comprehend the idea of a political or technological power being so completely beyond us, but we're still used to the idea that natural disasters are simply "acts of God" -- i.e. phenomena so immensely beyond our level of power that there's nothing we can do but try to anticipate, take precautions, run away if necessary, and then clean up afterward. That's why it's better to think of something like the Borg or Caeliar or Organians or Q as a force of nature rather than a political power, an "enemy" or an ally. Forces of nature are the only analogy that we industrialized peoples have left for the concept of something so completely beyond our power.

But the federation is much like us: they have - had - confidnce in their abilities. They've encountered superbeings before and always managed to participate meaningfully in the exchanges with them.

Nonsense. There was no "meaningful participation" in the Federation's interactions with the Organians. The Federation tried to treat the Organians like pawns to be manipulated in their conflict with the Klingons, and then the Organians made their extradimensional nature clear and put a stop the war. The Federation was rendered utterly helpless by them.

The Federation has interacted with the Q as anything other than helpless bystanders subject to the Q's whims exactly once, when a Q outfitted the U.S.S. Voyager with technology to allow it to enter the Q Continuum and somehow operate Q weaponry. Every other time the Federation has interacted with the Q, they've been completely subject to the Q's whims -- and even then, they could only operate Q weaponry and enter the Q Continuum with Q help; had such help been withdrawn, they would have been rendered powerless.

Metrons? Kirk had to fight like the Metrons made them, and only by persuading the Metrons of their own decency did he get out.

The Prophets? Benjamin Sisko had to beseech them to behave like the gods the Bajorans view them as to protect the Federation from the Dominion -- and then the Prophets turned around and forced Federation citizens aboard Deep Space 9 to participate in their conflict with the Pagh-Wraiths in exchange for their help.

Trelane? Kirk and Company had to emotionally manipulate him to prevent him from harming them until his parents came back.

In every interaction the Federation has had with extradimensional entities, the Federation has only survived at the whim of those entities. They've never "participated meaningfully" in those "exchanges;" they've simply endured them.

Until now: the Caeliar proved to be so far beyond the federation so as to negate any possibility for humans to act on something resembling their level.

Big deal -- that's happened many times before to the Federation. It's not going to fundamentally change Federation values to suddenly realize that they're not the biggest boys on the playground, because they've always known that.

It seems to me that this would lead to a loss of confidence in one's own forces, to pessimism, no longer 'boldly' go for fear of encountering something like that, rather staying home where at least the federation can claim to matter.

Only if you're already a pessimistic person who never really believed in Federation values before -- and who never really accepted the idea that the Federation is not the most powerful entity out there. Really, that's what your argument boils down to: That Federation society would fundamentally change upon realizing that the UFP is not always the most powerful entity out there. That suggests a fundamental, preexisting immaturity on the Federation's part that I don't think it has.

Until now, the federation viewed the superbeings it encountered as aliens - it didn't feel insignificant by comparison; from now on, the federation may well view them as gods - to be worshipped or feared.

Why? They're not gods and the Federation knows that. Hell, the Federation knows that its officers essentially had to talk them into stopping the Borg the same way they would talk any other reluctant political actor into something. They know they're not gods, they're just people with powerful technology that the Federation does not yet possess. Is it impressive? Certainly. Is the Federation grateful to the Caeliar? Of course. Will the Federation investigate the Caeliar to see if there is any way of neutralizing any hypothetical threat the Caeliar might hypothetically pose? Probably, and they'll probably discover there's nothing they can do to them. And will the Federation worship the Caeliar? No, because they still only view them as people.

 

[Sci]

Remember, at the end of the day, the Federation doesn't view those entities that are more powerful than them as being better than them. At the end of the day, the Federation still views them as people -- and immature ones, if David Mack's Starfleet Survival Guide's description of them as bored and immature creatures that have to be emotionally manipulated to be survived is an accurate description about how the Federation reacts to creatures like the Q or Trelane.

UNTL NOW the "federation didn't view those entities that are more powerful than them, as being better than them".
UNTIL NOW the federation viewed superbeings as "bored and immature creatures that have to be emotionally manipulated to be survived".

Well, now the federation knows exactly how insignoficant it is by comparison to those superbeings, the real distance between them.
One thing is for certain - the federation will no longer view these supercivilizations as their equals. The truth hit the federation hard - with 63 billion deaths.

And what makes you think that the people of the Federation did not already understand that there are entities out there more physically powerful than them? What makes you think that that would make them feel so cowed?

You're describing how modern America might react, because you come from a society that has been the biggest boy on the playground for so long that it no longer remembers what it is like to have powerful equals, or to be less powerful. Modern America has been drunk off of its power for half a century, and, yeah, I could see your scenario happening to them.

This is not true of the Federation. The Federation has always known that it is only the biggest boy in its corner of the playground, has encountered plenty of bigger boys in other parts of the playground in the past, and has the maturity not to feel entitled to its own power. The Federation has always known that something one day could come along and kick its ass, and it's not going to let that fact change who it is. The Federation is not as immature as modern America.

Major changes in the federation philosophy are on the horizon - and they definitely won't be towards Kirk's era optimism 'we can deal with anything we encounter'.

Even Kirk knew that there were limits to Federation power and didn't think of the UFP as omnipotent. (Really, it was Picard who was a great deal more arrogant about such things before Q introduced the Borg to them.)

I can very well see the federation beginning to view transcedental entities as gods after what's happened - the federation was broken, not only materially, but even more important, spiritually. The 'never give up' spirit was largely extinguished by the borg,

What the hell are you talking about? The "never give up" spirit was not extinguished at all, and Federation forces kept fighting right up to the bitter end. Even when they realized that the war was hopeless, they shifted into mental resistance if not physical resistance -- evacuating people, re-connecting with loved ones one last time, peacefully congregating while they knew death was coming rather than giving in to blind panic.

Those candlelight vigils that gathered in Earth and Mars and Luna and Andor? Those weren't signs of defeat; those were signs of defiance. Those were people who decided that though they might die, they would die standing on their feet, meeting their fate proudly, standing in unison with their fellow countrymen, united, peaceful, and free. That was the Federation showing its stiff upper lip, keeping calm and carrying on, rather than descending into despair.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Until now, the federation viewed the superbeings it encountered as aliens - it didn't feel insignificant by comparison; from now on, the federation may well view them as gods - to be worshipped or feared.

Why? They're not gods and the Federation knows that. Hell, the Federation knows that its officers essentially had to talk them into stopping the Borg the same way they would talk any other reluctant political actor into something. They know they're not gods, they're just people with powerful technology that the Federation does not yet possess.

The federation believed they're just aliens, not gods, until now - as every interaction with such superbeings proved. Until now, the federation never tasted the taste of true insignificance - what happened with the organians was nothing by comparison; what happened with Q and any other superbeing was a joke.

Now, the federation KNOWS the huge distance between itself and these supercivilizations (63 BILLION DEAD can do that, can make one realise things) - no more optimistically deluding itself that there's some equality to be had between itself and anything out there - a delusion speeled out in 'Q, who'.
Now, these gods graduate from having 'powerful technology' to having magic - when compared to the federation.


PS - federation officers talked the Caeliar into NOTHING. Hernandez (now a Caeliar, a half-divine being) informed them about their role in creating the borg; the Caeliar then decided to benevolently save humanity - but they decided this on their terms, according to their morals and values, with no interference from 'mere mortals'.

PS2 - "The "never give up" spirit was not extinguished at all, and Federation forces kept fighting right up to the bitter end."
Picard didn't lost the spirit to 'never give up'? Those starfleet forces that were only trying to commit seppuku, not even trying to come up with something creative, only trading shots, waiting to be snuffed off by the borg didn't loose the spirit?
The whole thalaron weapon fiasco was a symptom of this passive, defeatist mindset - what's the point of using it? it won't work anyway. All Picard or the federation leadership 'hoped' to accomplish was a dignified death.

PS3 - I'm not american, Sci - as I've told you before.