Where no ONE has gone before...

[Anticitizen]

Anticitizen, you miss the point. It doesn't matter what Wikipedia's definition says, 'Man' and 'Mankind' are considered, by many feminists and others, as examples of how males once constructed their world. For you to resolutely demand that the words are not sexist or exclusionary would rub many people up the wrong way. Respecting the suggestions by many women that less sexist and exclusionary language be considered is something that began to appear in the 70s and 80s.

I know what feminists and others think. I'm saying the correct reaction would be to take the meaning of the word back, not eliminate its use. 'Where no one has gone before' means something different than 'where no man has gone before', and it has nothing to do with gender.

 

[Therin of Andor]

"Man" doesn't exclude females. such thinking is PC modernist bullshit.

I'm saying the correct reaction would be to take the meaning of the word back, not eliminate its use.

I'll let you both say that to those wimmin at your own peril.

 

[Non-Beard Riker]

"Man" doesn't exclude females. such thinking is PC modernist bullshit.

Man is short for human!

But wouldn't it have to be "Where Man Has Not Gone Before?" to work that way?

 

[iguana_tonante]

I know what feminists and others think. I'm saying the correct reaction would be to take the meaning of the word back, not eliminate its use. 'Where no one has gone before' means something different than 'where no man has gone before', and it has nothing to do with gender.

And while you argue about linguistics and proto-Indo-Europeans roots, most women still live in a men's world and have to deal with discriminations, harassments or simply glass ceilings. The use of "man" to mean "human male" may be recent philologically speaking, but it's the way it's used today. And if it is perceived to be sexist, then it is sexist. Of course it's all about perception. Or are you arguing also that a rather common ethnic slur is not racist because it ultimately derives for the Latin word "niger" that just means "black"?

"Man" doesn't exclude females. such thinking is PC modernist bullshit.

Man is short for human!

Now that's just silly. I hope you are joking.

In-universe, as many have already said here, it's not about gender, but species. The original series was about Humanity reaching for its final frontier, TNG and the others were more about the Federation and its place on the galactic stage. Out-universe, maybe the change was due to PC pressure, maybe not. In the end, it turned out pretty well. And while many are indeed worried about semantical precision, I feel too many argues against politically correctness for entirely different reasons.

 

[Anticitizen]

And if it is perceived to be sexist, then it is sexist.

I hope that's sarcasm.

 

[scotpens]

n...I loved TOS too...no one around here uses “one” in everyday conversation...in the end, I felt grammatical correctness should win out over literary colorfulness. .

Grammatically, “no man” and “no one” are equally correct.

. . .What I meant is why there a some who almost hate the “no one” phrase.

Because it sounds weak, bland and prosaic, whereas “no man” sounds literary and poetic.

 

[scotpens]

. . . And if it is perceived to be sexist, then it is sexist. Of course it's all about perception.

So then, if someone perceives the word “niggardly” as offensive, it IS offensive?

 

[GalaxyX]

"Man" doesn't exclude females. such thinking is PC modernist bullshit.

I'm saying the correct reaction would be to take the meaning of the word back, not eliminate its use.

I'll let you both say that to those wimmin at your own peril.

I'll laugh in their faces

 

[GalaxyX]

And while you argue about linguistics and proto-Indo-Europeans roots, most women still live in a men's world and have to deal with discriminations, harassments or simply glass ceilings.

Women seem to have much better opportunities in the workforce.

Just recently this woman got hired into my IT department that, how shall I put it.....does not know enough to do the job properly? But hey, she's got a set of knockers, and that got her in the door. Guess who keeps getting the questions about stuff she should know already?

 

[iguana_tonante]

And if it is perceived to be sexist, then it is sexist.

I hope that's sarcasm.

Nope. Taking people's feeling into account means you should think before you speak. It may be difficult for some, I guess.

So then, if someone perceives the word “niggardly” as offensive, it IS offensive?

Since I'm sure people that use it do that exactly to spite people without being technically racist, it's not just offensive but also holier-than-thou.

And while you argue about linguistics and proto-Indo-Europeans roots, most women still live in a men's world and have to deal with discriminations, harassments or simply glass ceilings.

Women seem to have much better opportunities in the workforce.

Just recently this woman got hired into my IT department that, how shall I put it.....does not know enough to do the job properly? But hey, she's got a set of knockers, and that got her in the door. Guess who keeps getting the questions about stuff she should know already?

Ah, one anecdotal evidence against loads of statistical studies that say that women are much less likely to get hired, are paid much less, and are usually the first to be fired. How convincing.

Your company hire one idiot who happens to be a male, then he's just an idiot. Your company hire one idiot who happens to be female, then women have it easy just because they have tits. That's exactly the kind of hidden sexism that should be addressed.

I'll let you both say that to those wimmin at your own peril.

I'll laugh in their faces

Will you also flail your flabby arms at them?

 

[JarodRussell]

. . .What I meant is why there a some who almost hate the “no one” phrase.

Because it sounds weak, bland and prosaic, whereas “no man” sounds literary and poetic.

 

[Arpy]

Yeees, yeeeeesss...the individual is weakkk...but a mannn... He has a PENIS!

 

[Anji]

I was hoping for an honest answer as to whether anyone had a different ending to the movie.

A simple "no" would have been sufficient.

I'm sorry I asked the question.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I was hoping for an honest answer as to whether anyone had a different ending to the movie

I gave you the honest and correct answer many, many posts ago.

But on the VHS and DVD version Spock says "go boldy where no MAN has gone before". Can anyone explain this??? And did anyone who saw this movie at the theater, did you hear "one" or "man"?

You misremember your cinema experience.

The only change to the film was that the reels used in the first two weeks or so of US release had no Roman numeral "II" in the title. These reels then went off to the premieres all over the world. Check out the soundtrack LP, which came out a few days before the movie itself. Nimoy says "man" in that, too. The changes to his version of Kirk's TOS narration were: adding the word "continuing" between "the" and "voyages", replacing the words "its five-year" with "her on-going", and adding the word "forms" after "life".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_no_man_has_gone_before

 

[scotpens]

So then, if someone perceives the word “niggardly” as offensive, it IS offensive?

Since I'm sure people that use it do that exactly to spite people without being technically racist, it's not just offensive but also holier-than-thou.

And what makes you so sure of that? Actually it means they possess a vocabulary that includes words of more than two syllables. Why should intelligent, literate people censor themselves to accommodate the ignorance of others?

Yeees, yeeeeesss...the individual is weakkk...but a mannn... He has a PENIS!

“Time waits for no man.”

“No man is an island.”

“No man assails me with impunity.”

“No man is a failure who has friends.”

“No man is free who is not a master of himself.”

Replace man with one in any of these quotations and you take the soul out of them. It has nothing to do with genitals.

 

[Arpy]

So then, if someone perceives the word “niggardly” as offensive, it IS offensive?

Since I'm sure people that use it do that exactly to spite people without being technically racist, it's not just offensive but also holier-than-thou.

And what makes you so sure of that? Actually it means they possess a vocabulary that includes words of more than two syllables. Why should intelligent, literate people censor themselves to accommodate the ignorance of others?

Ignorance comes in many forms, including that of historical insensitivity.

He said "niggardly" isn't racist. But it is so rarely used and so obviously loaded that those who do use it go out of their way to learn and use it. And those people are nominally either "trying to take it back", or pretending..."holier-than-thou"-like...that history does not pertain to them.

This is an easy mistake to make. We'd like to believe we would act differently than our forebears, that not only are their sins not ours, but neither is our capacity for them, nor the remaining effect of their old actions.

There are plenty of other words and phrases in the English language that say the same thing. Try to take it back if you like, but from what I can tell, you have too big a chip on your shoulder to do it well.

Yeees, yeeeeesss...the individual is weakkk...but a mannn... He has a PENIS!

“Time waits for no man.”

“No man is an island.”

“No man assails me with impunity.”

“No man is a failure who has friends.”

“No man is free who is not a master of himself.”

Replace man with one in any of these quotations and you take the soul out of them. It has nothing to do with genitals.

Yes it does. Metaphorical genitals. Each of those invokes a traditional ideal of manhood. "No MAN is an island" reminds us that MEN tend to try to be..."No MAN assails be with impunity" I can already hear you saying...and partially this man deserves it...I am being kind of dickish.

But "soul"...there are no actual souls and if there were, they wouldn't care about grammar. I think you're being romantic here about old literary displays of manhood. None of those phrases has been used as so by Danielle Steele or Toni Morrison...at least not without a hint of irony. ...And I for one am sick of irony. Lets say what we mean. "No one is an island"...not quite so rugged or haughty sounding, but I'm taking comfort in remembering that neither is the phrase's message.

 

[scotpens]

(Post deleted)

 

[Arpy]

^Don't know what happened there, but I may want to thank you for showing restraint. It happens too infrequently here and I am also guilty of not showing enough of it.

Good luck to you, and I hope we share minds again sometime.

Here is something cool I shared with friends recently.

And here's a trailer for the upcoming Trek documentary Trek Nation I just learned about.

 

[Doug Otte]

He said "niggardly" isn't racist. But it is so rarely used and so obviously loaded that those who do use it go out of their way to learn and use it.

A couple of years ago, there was a big brouhaha here in the Washington DC area. A manager in a DC government department (who was white, and whose employees were apparently mostly black) used the term. It went on for weeks and weeks. I can't remember the outcome, but I think the manager was able to keep his job. Many people, of all ethnic backgrounds, pointed out that the screamers were ignorant of the meaning of the word.

Doug

 

[CaptainStoner]

I was hoping for an honest answer as to whether anyone had a different ending to the movie.

A simple "no" would have been sufficient.

I'm sorry I asked the question.

I'm sorry your thread got sideways...I have the same recollection though. Makes me wonder if there was an alternate take which was only used once or twice.