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Dumb and Bizarre Trek Novel Moments...

Something I find interesting: The debate over the resolution to the Borg invasion reminds me of reaction to the conclusion of the Shadow War in "Babylon Five". That was another hopeless conflict that could only end in near-total destruction -- until the ideological roots of the conflict were identified and powerful aliens were moved by the younger races into calling it off; ideals rather than might eventually being the solution. And it was another arc-conclusion that really seems to divide people. In both Bab-5 and Destiny, there was no way the heroes could win by conventional means, by military action. It was simply impossible. They could go down fighting, but they couldn't survive- the forces they were up against were just too powerful. But that didn't mean they didn't find a solution- indeed, in Bab-5's case, making a point of lying down and accepting death was essentially part of the plan- their only hope :lol:. Completely unconventional, but a wise course of action; because it hooked the elder races right in the ideology, the driving force behind their actions. The same is true of "Destiny". For the Borg, that driving force is their hunger, the emptiness that demands to be filled yet never can be, the perfection that can't be reached. Only now it could be- the Caeliar could try and reach out to the Borg, to "rescue" them (in doing so finding the solution to their own ideological dilemma), and it was the human(oid) characters, chief among them Hernandez, who convinced the Caeliar to do so. That is problem-solving- throwing down the weapons when they prove pointless and saying "We need a new angle because this isn't working. What must we do? What can save us?" Picard wouldn't engage in this kind of thinking due to his psychological breakdown, which is the problem with the thalaron business. Picard had indeed given up- but that was the whole point of his arc. He had hit rock bottom, and refused to believe that Dax's plan could work. Instead he wanted to try the same "hit them with weapons!" plan that wasn't working and wasn't going to work. All that was left for him was apocalypse, and he would rather streak in flashing thalaron pulses than truly try a working solution- because he was convinced there wasn't one. His entire universe had crashed down in flames around him.

I believe it was inventive, active, humanistic problem-solving that saved the day in "Destiny". Giving up with conventional weapons and violence didn't mean giving up hope- indeed, the character to give up and just surrender was in fact the one character insistant on a "keep shooting!" attitude: Picard. The others were busy identifying the one real shot at success and trying to achieve it. And as others have said, a non-violent conclusion is in keeping with the franchise of Star Trek, and is what most of us probably want to see.

How viewers respond to the end of the Shadow War depends on how they've connected with the story, I think. Some people find Bab-5 very entertaining but feel cheated or remain unconvinced by the arc's resolution, because they still relate to it as a military problem. If you see it instead as an ideological problem, the arc's conclusion is a lot more satisfying. I believe the same was true here; relating to the Borg arc in terms of military forces leads to an unsatisfying ending, because the Borg were so powerful that the story's end (which obviously has to have the Federation surviving) might seem similiar to deux ex machina. And from the military-problem viewpoint, arguments against using a weapon in such desperate situations seem...well, stupid, hence the thalaron debate. But if you instead relate to the story in terms of motives, drives, ideologies, the story is not about the Borg's war machine but their need to find a perfection beyond their grasp. Helping the Borg to find what they seek is the only way to end the threat.

Well, sorry for the mini-rant. :lol: That's my view of the situation, anyway. :)
 
Throughout Star Trek, our heroes were not always successful; at times, they failed. BUT THEY NEVER GAVE UP - they always had the 'NEVER SAY NEVER' attitude. That's the essential humanistic value portrayed in Star Trek.

ALL THIS UNTIL 'Destiny'.
We have the federation leadership refusing to use thalaron weapons - a weapon that had a good chance of slowing down the borg - because they're too busy blabbering some arguments that make no sense and then seemingly forgetting they even have it.
We have Picard refusing to help Ezri infiltrate a borg ship because he's too busy pitying himself in a holodeck and spouting defeatist arguments - ~it will never work.
We have Picard&co refusing to even prepare to use the thalaron weapon against the borg due to some "moral" argument that makes no sense - as even a superficial analysis reveals.

The entire federation - especially Picard&co - has a defeatist, fatalistic attitude, waiting for death and crying itself to sleep, not trying to find ways to survive, not even bothering to use alternatives already available - because it 'won't work' or because of some nonsensical excuses that pretend to be 'moral' arguments.
The only exception was Ezri - and her 'will never work' plan halved the borg presence in the Alpha Quadrant.

The borg had already defeated Picard and the rest.
That cardassian gul failed to break Picard's spirit? The borg only had to show up to accomplish this very thing.
Picard's crowning achievement in the book was to cry while the Caeliar got inside his mind and dealt with his emotional problems for him. Picard had no say in the matter, didn't contribute anything, not even here. Pathetic - a defeated man.
Picard&co gave up, they were just...waiting for death.
That was their contribution in the 'Destiny' trilogy.

Daayyuummm!

I haven't read Destiny yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. However, I really can't stand it when the writers have Trek characters acting so anti-force elitist that they're just outright ridiculous. When Picard and the Enterprise crew used stun settings on the Jem'Hadar during the Dominion War I verbally said "whatever!" Really?! Stun settings?! On the Jem'Hadar?! During a war that they're winning?! You do realize that guy's just going to get back up in an hour and slaughter a kindergarten full of kids, right?!

I also think it's dumb and bizarre that they didn't take out the Borg with Hugh. When the Borg are quite literally the very definition of evil, and are a serious and direct threat to trillions of innocent lives, then you are morally obligated to take them out. If it were me instead of Picard, then I would have saved the billions or trillions of lives that were murdered and enslaved after Picard chose to let the Borg live.

Same thing happened on nuBSG when Helo saved the Cylons from that virus. Yep, from that point on every single Human who's killed by the Cylons is on your head.

And the Ba'ku? More like booted'out. We're talking trillions of lives this stuff can save! Stop being so damn selfish and go find another one of the thousands of other beautiful planets to live on.
 
Same thing happened on nuBSG when Helo saved the Cylons from that virus. Yep, from that point on every single Human who's killed by the Cylons is on your head.

And the Ba'ku? More like booted'out. We're talking trillions of lives this stuff can save! Stop being so damn selfish and go find another one of the thousands of other beautiful planets to live on.

I'm not familiar with BSG, so excuse my ignorance, but I'm assuming the Cylons were dying from this virus? So on the one hand you condemn this Helo for saving what is I'm guessing is millions of lives, instead suggesting she should selfishly protect her own at the expense of those millions, then on the other hand you condemn the Ba'ku for...selfishly protecting their own at the possible expense of millions?

I don't understand the point you're making- it seems contradictory.
 
I believe it was inventive, active, humanistic problem-solving that saved the day in "Destiny". Giving up with conventional weapons and violence didn't mean giving up hope- indeed, the character to give up and just surrender was in fact the one character insistant on a "keep shooting!" attitude: Picard. The others were busy identifying the one real shot at success and trying to achieve it. And as others have said, a non-violent conclusion is in keeping with the franchise of Star Trek, and is what most of us probably want to see.

How viewers respond to the end of the Shadow War depends on how they've connected with the story, I think. Some people find Bab-5 very entertaining but feel cheated or remain unconvinced by the arc's resolution, because they still relate to it as a military problem. If you see it instead as an ideological problem, the arc's conclusion is a lot more satisfying. I believe the same was true here; relating to the Borg arc in terms of military forces leads to an unsatisfying ending, because the Borg were so powerful that the story's end (which obviously has to have the Federation surviving) might seem similiar to deux ex machina. And from the military-problem viewpoint, arguments against using a weapon in such desperate situations seem...well, stupid, hence the thalaron debate. But if you instead relate to the story in terms of motives, drives, ideologies, the story is not about the Borg's war machine but their need to find a perfection beyond their grasp. Helping the Borg to find what they seek is the only way to end the threat.

I think that's a brilliant analysis. You've got it, absolutely.
 
Same thing happened on nuBSG when Helo saved the Cylons from that virus. Yep, from that point on every single Human who's killed by the Cylons is on your head.

And the Ba'ku? More like booted'out. We're talking trillions of lives this stuff can save! Stop being so damn selfish and go find another one of the thousands of other beautiful planets to live on.

I'm not familiar with BSG, so excuse my ignorance, but I'm assuming the Cylons were dying from this virus? So on the one hand you condemn this Helo for saving what is I'm guessing is millions of lives, instead suggesting she should selfishly protect her own at the expense of those millions, then on the other hand you condemn the Ba'ku for...selfishly protecting their own at the possible expense of millions?

I don't understand the point you're making- it seems contradictory.
I know you don't know, but this was really bothering me. Helo was a guy, it was a call sign for a pilot named Karl Agathon. And while I do support the decision to save the Cylons, I think it's also worth pointing out that he was married to a Cylon, and had a half-Cylon child.
 
I haven't read Destiny yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. However, I really can't stand it when the writers have Trek characters acting so anti-force elitist that they're just outright ridiculous.

No one in Destiny acts "anti-force elitist."

And the Ba'ku? More like booted'out. We're talking trillions of lives this stuff can save!

Could save, not can. There's no guarantee that the Feds would actually be able to capture and replicate the effects of the rings' radiation -- but even trying to would mean making the planet unfit for humanoid life.

Stop being so damn selfish and go find another one of the thousands of other beautiful planets to live on.

Maybe the Ba'ku should do that.

But that doesn't mean the Federation had the right to force them.

That was their world. It had been their world since long before the Federation was even founded. It was foreign territory. The Federation was invading foreign territory and abducting a foreign culture's citizens en masse and then forcibly re-locating them.

That's an act of aggressive warfare against a foreign culture. It's a complete defiance of everything the Federation stands for.
 
And while I do support the decision to save the Cylons, I think it's also worth pointing out that he was married to a Cylon, and had a half-Cylon child.

Which was part and parcel of the same principle. While everyone else was driven by hatred and intolerance, Helo and Sharon were the first to see that the right path was mutual trust and cooperation. And that union of the two species, human and Cylon, ultimately proved the key to their mutual salvation -- and
the birth of our own human race.
Despite its overindulgent darkness, ultimately Ron Moore's BSG had a very Trekkish message, the same message as Destiny: that violence perpetuates problems rather than solving them, and that a real solution requires a smarter, more positive paradigm.
 
^ The difference being, Destiny was freaking incredible and the BSG finale was the largest pile of horseshit this side of the Kentucky Derby.

Though your mileage may vary, I suppose ;)
 
And while I do support the decision to save the Cylons, I think it's also worth pointing out that he was married to a Cylon, and had a half-Cylon child.

Which was part and parcel of the same principle. While everyone else was driven by hatred and intolerance, Helo and Sharon were the first to see that the right path was mutual trust and cooperation.

Well, sort of, eventually. Mostly I think Helo just wanted hot sex.
 
Say what you will of the finale, but one of the things hammered in BSG was it's not enough to survive but to be worthy of survival. Using that virus against the Cylons would have been doing to them what the Cylons had done to the Colonies (the Cylons launched a surprise attack on the Twelve Colonies that wiped out the human population on them, leaving only the near-fifty thousand on Galactica and the fleet of civilian ships that were attending its decommission ceremony). Using the virus may have ended the conflict, but if even a handful of Cylons survived, the cycle would have continued - eventually, they would rebuild their civilization, find humanity, and all that had happened before would happen again. That was one of the things that came through in the whole series, and what made the final choices of the Colonial fleet and the renegade Cylons so pivotal - they chose not to perpetual the cycle and instead work together.
 
Say what you will of the finale, but one of the things hammered in BSG was it's not enough to survive but to be worthy of survival.

Which is a non-starter, really, since there is no such thing as being "worthy" of survival. There is only surviving or not surviving.
 
Say what you will of the finale, but one of the things hammered in BSG was it's not enough to survive but to be worthy of survival. Using that virus against the Cylons would have been doing to them what the Cylons had done to the Colonies (the Cylons launched a surprise attack on the Twelve Colonies that wiped out the human population on them, leaving only the near-fifty thousand on Galactica and the fleet of civilian ships that were attending its decommission ceremony). Using the virus may have ended the conflict, but if even a handful of Cylons survived, the cycle would have continued - eventually, they would rebuild their civilization, find humanity, and all that had happened before would happen again. That was one of the things that came through in the whole series, and what made the final choices of the Colonial fleet and the renegade Cylons so pivotal - they chose not to perpetual the cycle and instead work together.

Also the virus was like the thalaron weapon impractical. You see in the Cylons could just jump the Resurrection Ship out of Resurrection and blow it up since the infected Cylons know that their infected and that the virus would come with them so they can stop the spread easily.

You know I fin it suprising how people will support useing the stupidest WMDs ever devised I mean you have

1) The slowest death ray EVER which the Borg would probably notice the Thalaron radiation since seeing as it was implied to have been around long enough to have a treaty baning it Picard probably knew what it was at the time he was assimilated so they would know what to look for and even if not they were in death and destruction mode not the default ignore everthing mode so the Enterprise charging its deflector would be something they would probably destroy the ship for.

2) A virus that MAY/OR MAY NOT transmit through Resurrection technology seeing as its an ancient one humans had become imuned to and not some techno bug plus again they could just cut off the infected ships like THEY ALREADY DID with the ones the Colonials found.
 
Reading "A Flag Full of Stars" again, and I find it quite bizarre. A Klingon high school teacher (both is quite strange, how the hell does a Klingon scientist land there, and then the whole concept of teaching a class will change dramatically in the next 200 years), Kirk being the one who designed and oversaw the refit (when in TMP he had no clue about the ship's systems because Decker oversaw the refit), Klingons sitting in a small room spying on another Klingon, lol. I'd expect Klingons to hire some alien thug to do the dishonorable job of spying, lol.

And the Ba'ku? More like booted'out. We're talking trillions of lives this stuff can save!

Could save, not can. There's no guarantee that the Feds would actually be able to capture and replicate the effects of the rings' radiation -- but even trying to would mean making the planet unfit for humanoid life.

And the Son'a would not have given the Federation a single tiny share of whatever they collected in the rings. They would have used it all for themselves to prevent their race from dying out. They were opportunistic Dominion allies after all.
 
Reading "A Flag Full of Stars" again, and I find it quite bizarre. A Klingon high school teacher (both is quite strange, how the hell does a Klingon scientist land there, and then the whole concept of teaching a class will change dramatically in the next 200 years), Kirk being the one who designed and oversaw the refit (when in TMP he had no clue about the ship's systems because Decker oversaw the refit), Klingons sitting in a small room spying on another Klingon, lol. I'd expect Klingons to hire some alien thug to do the dishonorable job of spying, lol.

That depends on whether TNG had come out yet. Before that the only Klingons were the smart and not too concerned about honor TOS klingons.
 
"Worthy of survival" is not something I would apply to a single BSG character.

I was under the impression all the suffering they brought down upon themselves was because, deep down, they liked it. Inflicting and absorbing misery was what they all lived for. It's how they defined themselves.

Star Trek characters, on the other hand, are always trying to better themselves (in their naive boy scout way). Trek people start with what took BSG until the finale to figure out.
 
I'm currently reading Well of Souls for the second or third time, and while I do enjoy it, the fact that most or all of the senior staff of the Enterprise-C are "damaged" or broken or something gets kinda old. There are times it's about as schmaltzy as a soap opera.
 
Reading "A Flag Full of Stars" again, and I find it quite bizarre. A Klingon high school teacher (both is quite strange, how the hell does a Klingon scientist land there, and then the whole concept of teaching a class will change dramatically in the next 200 years), Kirk being the one who designed and oversaw the refit (when in TMP he had no clue about the ship's systems because Decker oversaw the refit), Klingons sitting in a small room spying on another Klingon, lol. I'd expect Klingons to hire some alien thug to do the dishonorable job of spying, lol.

That depends on whether TNG had come out yet. Before that the only Klingons were the smart and not too concerned about honor TOS klingons.

True. Though it seems to me that Kruge from ST III was the prototype of the TNG Klingon. Heck, when the Klingons in TMP fired torpedoes at the giant cloud, they were already quite different from the much smarter TOS Klingons.
 
^ The difference being, Destiny was freaking incredible and the BSG finale was the largest pile of horseshit this side of the Kentucky Derby.

See, we can agree on things! ;)

I want to say I actually do like the ending to Destiny, if for no other reason than
the Borg are destroyed,
but also because it works very well as a Trek trope, and it didn't come across as deus ex mechanistic like some of Trek's similar moments wound up being ("Hey, guess what, Jean Luc? I've decided to give you a new heart" and "Fine, we'll take care of those adversarial Dominion ships").

Also, I liked the beaten-down Picard (it's one of the few non-Hernandez/Inyx, non-Titan elements I thought was rather good).

Deranged Nasat compared it to the end of the Shadow War, which is indeed an interesting comparison, because Destiny's ending is a lot more satisfying than that. I didn't mind the concept of a peaceful, talky solution, but... wow, was that unbelievable. "We will not be... alone?" Oh God. Of course, not you stupid Vorlon, you stayed behind on purpose! It didn't help that the whole Shadow War, barring Londo, fell flat for me, basically because the threat of the Shadows was primarily told, not shown, built up as an apocalyptic threat, but puny humans are able to just slaughter them like Cobra Vipers. At least the Borg and Caeliar really were beyond our ken.
 
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