DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[Seven of Five]

I haven't posted in here for so long. I'm sorry, and I'll sacrifice something to the Prophets later. Liked your season comparison anyway, and would say DS9's fifth season was just as strong as B5's fourth, just in different ways. Both blew away VOY's third season though, which was very hit and miss.

I really enjoyed the first few episodes of VOY's fourth season though. Seven was introduced and Kes was gone. I think Kes had plently of untapped potential, and I wish to this day it had been Harry, Neelix or even Chakotay had gone instead. Aside from that though, Seven was a very good character that mixed up the show successfully. At the time I remember thinking that the show was a bit more tense, which was probably to do with all the CGI fights the ship was suddenly getting into all the time.

As for the next bout of DS9 vs. VOY, it's no contest really. An epic Dominion war episode vs. a pedestrian horror VOY style.

 

[Kai Winn]

do not expect too much from ds9 next time, it's not great, but what did you say above, 'sci-fi staple'. voyager is not exactly awesome either, but they try something seen not frequently on star trek, an old-fashioned horror story. quite scary, and probably more memorable than the ds9 episode.

For someone with a DS9 related avatar and username you do seem to piss on it a lot.

it's solid handicraft and i liked it better than voy or b5 back in the nineties. which were a romantic time, the cold war over, ideological loyalties not so important, the economy running strong. things were looking up.
then we had the hypocritical wars on terror, iraq, and the religious fanatics pressing you against the wall, and asking if you are saved are all over the place. i can't agree anymore with a show that justifies, glorifies religion, war, and destruction.

 

[apenpaap]

So why do you keep the same avatar?

 

[Kai Winn]

do you believe it promotes ds9?

 

[apenpaap]

No, but if you don't like the show anymore, then why do you wear an avatar from the show?

 

[TheGodBen]

it's solid handicraft and i liked it better than voy or b5 back in the nineties. which were a romantic time, the cold war over, ideological loyalties not so important, the economy running strong. things were looking up.
then we had the hypocritical wars on terror, iraq, and the religious fanatics pressing you against the wall, and asking if you are saved are all over the place.

Tee hee hee. You think the 90s were peaceful? How silly.

An IRA technique used in the early 1990s was the "proxy bomb", a type of involuntary suicide bomb where a victim was kidnapped and forced to drive a car bomb to its target. In one operation in Derry in October 1990, the Provisional IRA chained a British Army cook to a car laden with explosives, held his family hostage and forced him to drive to an Army checkpoint where the bomb exploded, killing himself and five soldiers.

Terrorism and religious extremism didn't start on September 11th 2001, I'm sorry if an insular and self-absorbed media made you think otherwise.

i can't agree anymore with a show that justifies, glorifies religion, war, and destruction.

You should have no problem with DS9 then, it didn't glorify war at all, they had whole episodes dedicated to pointing out that war is grisly and all-round bad. But DS9 was also right to say that war is sometimes necessary.

Now Star Wars, there's a franchise that glorified war and religion (The Force). Why don't you go to a Star Wars forum, call yourself "Han Solo rulz" and troll the members there for a bit?

 

[DevilEyes]

it's solid handicraft and i liked it better than voy or b5 back in the nineties. which were a romantic time, the cold war over, ideological loyalties not so important, the economy running strong. things were looking up.
then we had the hypocritical wars on terror, iraq, and the religious fanatics pressing you against the wall, and asking if you are saved are all over the place.

Tee hee hee. You think the 90s were peaceful? How silly.

An IRA technique used in the early 1990s was the "proxy bomb", a type of involuntary suicide bomb where a victim was kidnapped and forced to drive a car bomb to its target. In one operation in Derry in October 1990, the Provisional IRA chained a British Army cook to a car laden with explosives, held his family hostage and forced him to drive to an Army checkpoint where the bomb exploded, killing himself and five soldiers.

Terrorism and religious extremism didn't start on September 11th 2001, I'm sorry if an insular and self-absorbed media made you think otherwise.

Exactly. For some of us, like yours truly, the 2000s are the boring peaceful decade after the war decade that the 1990s were. There was plenty of war, genocide, terrorism, assassinations and religious fanaticism to go around... just like in any decade. There are places where conflicts have been going on for decades. Your perception only depends on whether it happened where you live or it was far away and you didn't really care.

i can't agree anymore with a show that justifies, glorifies religion, war, and destruction.

You should have no problem with DS9 then, it didn't glorify war at all, they had whole episodes dedicated to pointing out that war is grisly and all-round bad. But DS9 was also right to say that war is sometimes necessary.

I suppose Kai is following the logic that every show "glorifies" its subject matter? Well, VOY might be glorifying getting lost in the Delta Quadrant but I really don't see how anyone can say that DS9 glorifies war and destruction.

 

[mattyhugh]

do not expect too much from ds9 next time, it's not great, but what did you say above, 'sci-fi staple'. voyager is not exactly awesome either, but they try something seen not frequently on star trek, an old-fashioned horror story. quite scary, and probably more memorable than the ds9 episode.

For someone with a DS9 related avatar and username you do seem to piss on it a lot.

it's solid handicraft and i liked it better than voy or b5 back in the nineties. which were a romantic time, the cold war over, ideological loyalties not so important, the economy running strong. things were looking up.
then we had the hypocritical wars on terror, iraq, and the religious fanatics pressing you against the wall, and asking if you are saved are all over the place. i can't agree anymore with a show that justifies, glorifies religion, war, and destruction.

Yeah, God forbid Star Trek actually resemble a realistic future. Warts and all. I don't think it glorifies anything.

 

[Seven of Five]

i can't agree anymore with a show that justifies, glorifies religion, war, and destruction.

Did you watch DS9? It never glorified war, and there were several episodes that did the opposite and showed the horrors that often happen. Necessary? Yeah, sometimes, but it was never pretty.

I would also disagree with the viewpoint of the 90s being peaceful. There were many violent encounters throughout the decade over the whole planet.

 

[TheGodBen]

I suppose Kai is following the logic that every show "glorifies" its subject matter? Well, VOY might be glorifying getting lost in the Delta Quadrant

Nah, Voyager glorified the human race being drones in a cyborg collective, it glorified the Phage that ruined the Vidiian civilization, and remember that time it glorified it actions of Captain Ransom on the Equinox? I can't believe they got away with showing things like that back in the peaceful and romantic 90s.

 

[happydave]

VOY also taught me that if I want my problems solved I just have to wait for the Dues Ex Machina to come in at the final minute. If only life was that simple.

 

[Sykonee]

Well, I'm back, and lo', nearly every team I care about has been kicked from the Playoffs (still, go Suns/Celtics!). I guess I have time to crack open those S6 DS9 DVDs now.

Week 5: (Ending 10.05.97)
DS9 - A Time To Stand (Airdate 09.29.97)
VOY - Revulsion (Airdate 10.01.97)

And boom! DS9 picks things up right where we left off. Meaning, if the show had a slowly building dread about things as S5 closed up, it just keeps the pressure on with the opener here. We have no quick fixes, as it should be. Our heroes get a few minor victories in this episode of course, but they seem to come at a cost. That's war for you though. It also goes a long way to show how much we're invested in these characters now, that watching them so hopelessly backed into a corner can create some truly gut-wrenching drama.

VOY wasn't much to get fussed about. Harry getting butt-hurt over another babe? Well, at least there weren't evil holograms to fight this ti- ah, dang it. Revulsion seems to work best when it's about character rather than plot, which unfortunately isn't for the whole episode. DS9 thumps it soundly this week.

B5's coming back next week though, so we'll see if it can hold strong against that show's drive to its season finale. So long as there aren't anymore experimental episodes going on, it should be entertaining.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Rocks And Shoals
VOY - The Raven
B5 - Between The Darkness And The Light

 

[Pemmer Harge]

A Time to Stand is actually a bit underrated I think. It tends to be overshadowed by the next episode for some reason. Anyway, this is really good - I love how different everything is now. Kira working for Dukat? Cool! This stretch of Season 6 has to be the most ambitious stuff DS9 ever did. I still don't believe Rom's a spy for Starfleet though.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 6: (Ending 10.12.97)
DS9 - Rocks And Shoals (Airdate 10.06.97)
VOY - The Raven (Airdate 10.08.97)
B5 - Between The Darkness And The Light (Airdate 10.09.97)

Someone over at VOY must have realized they'd yet to give their new character an episode all to herself. "But wait, she's been in every single b-story-" AN EPISODE ALL TO HERSELF! Raven's kind of annoying though, in that the crew is made to look like a bunch of idiots again. Then, as the story seems to indicate we're going to get a meaty backstory for Seven, we're left with nothing but a cursory look instead, leaving us to ponder the rest for ourselves. Man, what a cocktease. ...er, of an episode.

Really though, this week's all about whether DS9 can maintain the momentum its gained with its War Arc, and if the returning B5 can retake some of that thunder with its own continuing War Arc. Unfortunately, B5 falls victim to its need to move plot.

Not to say it wasn't another solid Plot Episode, because it was. Yet the key 'emotional' scene fell flat. We're supposed to feel the loss of Ivonava (well, almost loss - I guess we'll see if there's a sci-fi miracle cure next week, or they're just prolonging her agony for some dramatic reason), yet I felt more of a sense of tragic loss with the Jem'Hadar - and they're the bad guys! Faceless Shadow-Destroyers didn't make for nearly as compelling an adversary as the slimey Keevan. And B5 lacked any kind of crushing soul-searching character moment the kind that Kira had this week. Not to mention Sheriden's jailbreak seemed way too easy (even for TV).

Hey, there were some cool things regarding B5 anyway: Black Eye Lyta's hella' wicked! It just doesn't stick with you the same way R&S does, no where near it. DS9 takes the week. With B5 looking to gear up for the Final Showdown next week, however, it's going to take quite a bit on Trek's part to match that - B5 always comes up big with their Major Event episodes. VOY knows this, wisely stepping aside for now while these two duke things out.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Sons And Daughters
B5 - Endgame

 

[Damask]

Sons and Daughters doesn't have a hope against Endgame. Though it is the weakest of the Dominion Occupation arc eps.

 

[Eyes]

I thought Rocks and Shoals would win. As a fairly average character episode, The Raven can't hold a candle to this.

Rocks and Shoals is easily the best episode of the Occupation Arc. As always, for B5, I haven't a clue, but your assessment of it seems good enough.

Next week, I have a feeling that if you describe the next B5 as a final showdown, it'll easily trump Sons & Daughters, the weak link in the Occupation Arc.

 

[Kai Winn]

i expected nothing less than a win of the overshadowing, epic 'rocks and shoals'. my opinion on it, it's quite boring, nonsensical, and the stage of the silliest infantry skirmish in the history of moving pictures, with some jem hadar stumbling stiffly across the land to get themselves killed. nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys? what happened to the personal cloaking devices of the jem hadar? exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

 

[DevilEyes]

nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys?

 

[TheGodBen]

The Raven is good, but Rocks and Shoals is a classic, probably the best episode in the occupation arc.

You know, if things keep going at this rate I might overtake you in watching B5 and I'll finally be able to read all your posts! And I'll be able to criticise you for making all the wrong calls!

nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys?

Sisko didn't have a supply of ketracel white, his ship sank in the sea, remember? When escaping a sinking ship his first thought wasn't to rescue the supply of a drug he had absolutely no need for. You also neglect the fact that Sisko didn't know when, or even if, they were going to be rescued. So even if Sisko did have a supply of White to give them, it would just run out again in two weeks and he would have lost his chance to kill them and save his crew.

exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

Seriously, you don't get that? That was at the core of the episode, if you don't understand that point then you clearly weren't paying attention.

 

[Bones2]

i expected nothing less than a win of the overshadowing, epic 'rocks and shoals'. my opinion on it, it's quite boring, nonsensical, and the stage of the silliest infantry skirmish in the history of moving pictures, with some jem hadar stumbling stiffly across the land to get themselves killed. nonsensical because if sisko doesn't want to kill them, why not stun them, leave them a supply of ketracel that happened to be stocked on his ship, and send an sms in due time to the dominion to pick up their boys? what happened to the personal cloaking devices of the jem hadar? exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

You really are having none of it, are you?

Personally, I like seeing vocal support for Voyager compared to DS9. It can't just be Anwar.