This has probably been discussed before and may be splitting hairs to "make the story fit" prior cannon, but could ST09's Delta Vega be one of T'Khut's moons?
Delta Vega
- Thread starter AmbassadorPointyEars
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You can't have an ice world so close to a desert world.
The Nero comic implied (but didn't exactly say) that Delta Vega was a planet in the Vulcan system with an essentric orbit, and that at the time of STXI it was (conveniently) at it's closest to Vulcan, and had an awsome view of Vulcan in the sky. It would presumably spend most of it's time further out from the sun.
That explanation works just fine for me. I prefer it over "Spock sensed not saw Vulcan die".
The Nero comic implied (but didn't exactly say) that Delta Vega was a planet in the Vulcan system with an essentric orbit, and that at the time of STXI it was (conveniently) at it's closest to Vulcan, and had an awsome view of Vulcan in the sky. It would presumably spend most of it's time further out from the sun.
That explanation works just fine for me. I prefer it over "Spock sensed not saw Vulcan die".
It still doesn't make total sense though. Mars is very close to Earth and it is a tiny spot in the night sky. For the planet to have been so close that Vulcan was THAT big in the sky there is no way that the ice would not have melted. The mind meld must be representative.
Well, I read before that T'Khut is impossibly close to Vulcan in TMP. Their proximity would have caused tidal stresses that would have destroyed both planets.
A shot of Old Spock doubling over and grabbing his head (a la "The Doomsday Machine") just wouldn't have had the same impact.
Also Vulcan may be suffering an almighy greenhouse effect as a result of countless nuclear wars in years past, or maybe DV has some sort of atmosphere we humans haven't yet concieved.
I'm in the "It's only a movie" camp anyway. Impossible supernovae, impossible ice worlds and impossibly quick trips to Vulcan bother me not. YMMV.
A shot of Old Spock doubling over and grabbing his head (a la "The Doomsday Machine") just wouldn't have had the same impact.
Also Vulcan may be suffering an almighy greenhouse effect as a result of countless nuclear wars in years past, or maybe DV has some sort of atmosphere we humans haven't yet concieved.
I'm in the "It's only a movie" camp anyway. Impossible supernovae, impossible ice worlds and impossibly quick trips to Vulcan bother me not. YMMV.
Why do you assume that an ice world and a desert world can't be that close to one another and still be an ice world and a desert world?
We have huge ice-covered areas and huge desert-covered areas all on the same planet.
Plus we know from canon that Vulcan is a desert-world. Do we know that this Delta Vega is all ice or are we assuming based on the few square-miles we've seen of it?
We have huge ice-covered areas and huge desert-covered areas all on the same planet.
Plus we know from canon that Vulcan is a desert-world. Do we know that this Delta Vega is all ice or are we assuming based on the few square-miles we've seen of it?
Well, Spock in TOS sensed the Intrepid, the starship crewed exclusively by vulcans, die, imagine sensing an entire planet-full of vulcans dying...
Guartho, we saw Delta Vega when Kirk's pod was launched. It was a big ball of ice.
Yeah it's only a movie. Movies don't have to be dumb and/or scientifically inaccurate though. Writers should always aim high. And why dump Spock on Delta Vega at all? He'd have a better view of the destruction of Vulcan from the Narada and would have had valuable intel on the defences of Vulcan AND Earth (he was a Starfleet officer during this time and has perfect recall). Sure his intel may be wrong due to the changes in the timeline but Nero can verify this by taking more prisoners. Dumb.
We know that Vulcan has low levels of oxygen and water, which should lead to significant temperature variations but I suppose that it could conceivably have high levels of carbon dioxide, methane, and other greenhouse gasses. However - carbon dioxide is made up of 2 Oxygen molecules - if it has high levels of carbon dioxide it would have twice as much oxygen - so that makes no sense - lets stick with methane.
I'm still not sure that it would be possible to have a completely icy world right next door. Delta Vega has a thick atmoshphere with lots of oxygen and water (Kirk doesn't need breathing aperatus, we see lots of wind and precipitation) but the sun isn't blocked out by clouds. It can't be losing its atmosphere to space (or it would have no atmosphere at all by now) and since Kirk doesn't need radiation protection we must also assume that it has a magnetic field protecting it from the star's solar wind, which suggests it has a molten core (so it must be a decent size), but it can't be THAT cold (Kirk's exposed flesh doesn't freeze after walking for several hours and Spock survives in a cave) by burning something (animal dung or plant matter - Spock does have a torch although I don't recall seeing any trees).
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, except I really hope they employ a science advsior to check over the plot next time.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, except I really hope they employ a science advsior to check over the plot next time.
Plus a military advisor and you get a huge AMEN from me.
I really hope they employ a science advsior to check over the plot next time.
They actually did. Carolyn Porco was assigned to give advice on science. When it came to this scene, she was either not shown it, or she did give advice and it was ignored.
I kinda wonder what the point of a science advisor is if they are just ignored.
I really hope they employ a science advsior to check over the plot next time.
They actually did. Carolyn Porco was assigned to give advice on science. When it came to this scene, she was either not shown it, or she did give advice and it was ignored.
I kinda wonder what the point of a science advisor is if they are just ignored.
Mostly, yes. Science advisors typically get to fill in little details here and there, where it doesn't really matter, but they have no influence over anything important, and no screenwriter or director is going to listen to them if it gets in the way of the coolness factor (as they perceive it.) In this case it boiled down to this:
The place Kirk gets dropped must be visually distinctive from Vulcan, lest audiences get confused (wait, is that the same planet? Didn't it blow up?)* Since Vulcan is an arid world, the most obvious answer is, make this one an ice world.
Having said that, a planet's surface conditions are determined by many factors, not just it's orbit.
It was the Delta Vega reference that made me squirm, though. I know they threw it in there as a nod to the fans, but as I've said before, that's like coming to your date's front door with flowers that you just pulled from her garden.
I got one. It's like making a new Star Wars movie, and when you want to give fans a nod to the original movies, you name a planet Tatooine.....even when it's a completely oceanic world that has nothing to do with hutts or anything that could be associated with Tatooine. You know it's not Tatooine, you say it's not Tatooine, but you call it Tatooine as a nod........That's pretty lame.
If they're not going to give respect to Star Trek lore when they know what it is, why makes you think they're going to listen to a science consultant?
With no sign of Vulcan nearby... just as the destruction of Vulcan displays no evidence of an impossibly close Delta Vega.
Err...maybe in the shot of Vulcan imploding Delta Vega was just opposite the camera? The angle is the same from Spock's POV on the surface.
In other news: Where is T'Khut in every non-TMP appearance of Vulcan?
These sorts of things are hardly new to Trek.
In other news: Where is T'Khut in every non-TMP appearance of Vulcan?
These sorts of things are hardly new to Trek.
It also contains images of events from 2233 which Spock did not witness.
But Kirk knew all about the Kelvin attack. It was a mind-meld - I would expect a bit of a mental image jumble from both sides.
Exactly - which is why Spock seemed to see the destruction of Vulcan as Kirk had seen it.
The weirdest thing is that - when you've seen the deleted scenes - that nu-Rura Penthe looks like TOS-Delta Vega and nu-Delta Vega looks like TOS-Rura Penthe.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Yeppers. That's a wierd way to "nod" to the fans, by getting your planets (and asteroids, in the case of Rura Penthe) mixed up.
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