Delta Vega

[I-Am-Zim]

Yet he apparently destroyed an armada at a Klingon prison planet for no reason at all.

Apparently so. Maybe he felt like blowin' sumthin' up. And the distress call came from a prison planet. That doesn't necessarily mean that the armada was destroyed at the prison planet. Maybe the prison detected the attack and sent the call.

Also, the attack on the Kelvin took place on the edge of Klingon space. Maybe Spock came through in a location close to Nero's original entry. After Nero and his gang roamed the galaxy twiddling their thumbs for 25 years, they had to go back to the edge of Klingon space to get Spock. They may possibly have passed by a "Klingon prison planet" and had to push through an armada of Klingons on patrol at the border. There are all kinds of explanations for that. Few of them include Nero being held in a prison. Especially since there was absolutely no mention of it in the movie.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"Rura Penthe" may be the name of the star system. There could be a prison on every planetoid, asteroid and space station in it.

Whatever it is it's not all it's cracked up to be: Archer, Kirk and Nero and crew all escaped. But I guess if Archer can get out, anyone can!


And was that four-faced alien supposed to be a transporter malfunction survivor or what?

"That's because they aren't in Rura Pentha 13, the toughest prison camp in all the Empire!!!!"- Commandant Klink

That's what they should have done with Enterprise! Reboot it as "Archer's Heroes", the whacky adventures of the NX crew running black ops under the noses of the Klingon commandant!

As to the whole planet/asteroid thing, I'm all for the reclassification of Rura Penthe. Asteroids with breathable atmospheres and broad, clearly remote horizons are clearly misnamed. Stupid Klingons.

Funny you bring that up.

Did this a few years ago. I don't recall why.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

As to the whole planet/asteroid thing, I'm all for the reclassification of Rura Penthe. Asteroids with breathable atmospheres and broad, clearly remote horizons are clearly misnamed. Stupid Klingons.

They did it in Star Wars. So why not JJTrek Wars?

 

[3D Master]

You can't have an ice world so close to a desert world.

Uh... yes, you can. Put it in the shadow of the desert world, so very little sunlight can hit it. Presto, ice world.

But Kirk knew all about the Kelvin attack. It was a mind-meld - I would expect a bit of a mental image jumble from both sides.

Exactly - which is why Spock seemed to see the destruction of Vulcan as Kirk had seen it.

Right. Nero wanted Spock to see the destruction of Vulcan... so he put him somewhere where he can't see it. Makes total sense.

The scene in the mind meld only showed Nero with his shirt off. He could have been anywhere. And if it were actually Rura Penthe from TUC, we all know that nobody would be dumb enough to run around shirtless on that barren ice and snow covered asteroid ("Punishment means exile to the surface. And on the surface, nothing can survive."). Even underground in the dilithium mines the inmates had to wear several layers of clothing to keep warm. So, no, that scene didn't look like Rura Penthe from TUC at all.

Then again, Nero wants Spock to see Vulcan destroyed, and according to some here, he put Spock on a place where he can't see Vulcan get destroyed...

 

[Ryan8bit]

Put it in the shadow of the desert world, so very little sunlight can hit it. Presto, ice world.

Just curious, but would it even be possible for two objects in close proximity to do this? Could one stay in a synchronous orbit with the other around the sun without orbiting the other?

Even if it can't I'm sure there's a million other ways an ice planet could be next to a desert planet, possibly including the atmosphere makeup and how heated the core is. Climate seems much more complicated than proximity to the sun dictating temperature.

 

[Pauln6]

Put it in the shadow of the desert world, so very little sunlight can hit it. Presto, ice world.

Just curious, but would it even be possible for two objects in close proximity to do this? Could one stay in a synchronous orbit with the other around the sun without orbiting the other?

Even if it can't I'm sure there's a million other ways an ice planet could be next to a desert planet, possibly including the atmosphere makeup and how heated the core is. Climate seems much more complicated than proximity to the sun dictating temperature.

I think its mathematically unlikely. Presumably Vulcan would have to be exactly the right distance away to block out the sun(s?) and maintain a synchronous orbit at least for the part of the year that we see in the movie. I don't recall the planet being perpetually dark.

As I understand it, if the core of a planet is too cold, this can weaken the magnetic field, which would mean the planet would be scoured by solar winds and would start to lose its atmosphere. Same thing happened to Mars over time, although presumably it depends in the size of the planet, when the core goes cold, the thickness of the atmsosphere, and the strength of the sun. Delta Vega has strong winds and huge amounts of precipitation so it must still have a thick atmosphere, although who knows if it being lost to space?

All things being equal I think it makes far more sense to say the planet is just further away.

 

[Peter the Younger]

Put it in the shadow of the desert world, so very little sunlight can hit it. Presto, ice world.

Just curious, but would it even be possible for two objects in close proximity to do this? Could one stay in a synchronous orbit with the other around the sun without orbiting the other?

Even if it can't I'm sure there's a million other ways an ice planet could be next to a desert planet, possibly including the atmosphere makeup and how heated the core is. Climate seems much more complicated than proximity to the sun dictating temperature.

I'd think that arrangement would be unstable, but you're right, you don't have to tweak the numbers very far to set off runaway glaciation, and viola - ice world.

 

[Set Harth]

Right. Nero wanted Spock to see the destruction of Vulcan... so he put him somewhere where he can't see it. Makes total sense.

Nero knows all about Vulcans and their "intrepid" powers... as anyone following the thread would already know.

They did it in Star Wars.

Did what? Labeled planets "asteroids"? Had asteroids with breathable atmospheres? Didn't happen. Nice try, but this is a screwup on the part of TUC and Abrams got it right.

Maybe Spock came through in a location close to Nero's original entry.

Sorry, still the Neutral Zone. You've tried to rewrite this before.

They may possibly have passed by a "Klingon prison planet" and had to push through an armada of Klingons on patrol at the border.

They wouldn't have had to go through Klingon space at all, and even if they did, they're not traveling at 40 mph. They're at warp speed. There is absolutely no reason they would have had to "push through" anything.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Put it in the shadow of the desert world, so very little sunlight can hit it. Presto, ice world.

Just curious, but would it even be possible for two objects in close proximity to do this? Could one stay in a synchronous orbit with the other around the sun without orbiting the other?

It could if it was placed at one of the libration points, but it wouldn't be a stable orbit. On the other hand, the shading planet would have to be enormous to actually block sunlight to the smaller one.

The matter of proximity is irrelevant anyway, considering the varying climates between Earth and Venus, which have almost nothing to do with their distances from the sun and everything to do with their magnetic fields (or lack thereof) and atmosphere composition. If Delta Vega has a conspicuous lack of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere, it might be otherwise Earthlike in the middle of a long ice age.


But all of this assumes Delta Vega is anywhere NEAR Vulcan when it could easily be in a totally different star system, just within the range of Spock's telepathy but beyond the range of his ability to send a warning.

 

[3D Master]

Right. Nero wanted Spock to see the destruction of Vulcan... so he put him somewhere where he can't see it. Makes total sense.

Nero knows all about Vulcans and their "intrepid" powers... as anyone following the thread would already know.

Except,

a. there's not a single hint that he does.

b. Nero didn't say he wanted Spock to sense the destruction with his mind voodoo, he said he wanted Spock to SEE it.

But all of this assumes Delta Vega is anywhere NEAR Vulcan when it could easily be in a totally different star system, just within the range of Spock's telepathy but beyond the range of his ability to send a warning.

Only if Nero is a complete idiot...

Okay, it's a possibility.

 

[T'Girl]

Vulcan doesn't have a moon, however Vulcan is a moon. Both Vulcan and Delta Vega are in orbit around the gas giant T'Khut. Nero timed the implosion of Vulcan to correspond to the moon Vulcan and moon Delta Vega being in conjunction in their orbits, with his superior Vulcan eye sight Spock could see Vulcan clearly in the sky from perhaps a half to a full million kilometers away. Nero also timed Vulcan's implosion so that the side of Delta Vega that he placed Spock on was rotated towards Vulcan.

Being a planet or a moon has nothing to do with a bodies size.

Delta Vega is in the mists of a ice age.

In the theatrical version of TMP, Spock looks into the sky of Vulcan at T'Khuk, there is a moon in transit, maybe it is Delta Vega (don't remember it looking icy). If Vulcan and Delta Vega are about the same size and if Spock can easily see Delta Vega from the surface of Vulcan, then the opposite must be true.

 

[Pauln6]

Newtype_alpha is right about variying atmosphere composition leading to vastly different environments and I think it is a bit much to expect writers to think through their planetary environments too much when all they are goping for is a visual cue. Vulcan has low oxygen but could have high levels of methane fuelling its higher temperatures.

It's as complicated for Delta Vega (low levels of greenhouse gasses could actually lead to large temperature variations rather than a perpetually cold moon but it clearly has a thick atmosphere and sufficiently clear skies for Spock to see Vulcan). It could be as simple as the moon having an axial tilt and we see this particular part of the moon during its winter months.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

They did it in Star Wars.

Did what? Labeled planets "asteroids"? Had asteroids with breathable atmospheres? Didn't happen. Nice try, but this is a screwup on the part of TUC and Abrams got it right.

Go watch Empire Strikes Back again. Han, Leia, and Chewie land the Falcon inside an asteroid. A very large asteroid. They go out of the ship wearing only minimal life support. No pressure suits. Just a small mask for extra oxygen. Of course, they were inside a large worm, but that worm had to breathe something and the asteroid itself had to have at least some gravity and at least a minimal atmosphere for them to be able to get out of the ship with no pressure suits. There was no screwup in TUC. There are bodies in the Kuiper(sp?) Belt that are considered asteroids that are as big as or bigger than our moon. If one of those asteroids happened into the "sweet spot" around a nice sun like ours, it could possibly sustain a breathable atmosphere. Anything is possible.

Maybe Spock came through in a location close to Nero's original entry.

Sorry, still the Neutral Zone. You've tried to rewrite this before.

Yep. I did. And it worked just fine. As far as I can remember, you were the only one who had issue with it. And what does the Neutral Zone have to do with it? Nero and his crew were presumably wandering the galaxy for 25 years (at least according to what we saw on screen). They had to get food, fuel, and supplies somewhere. I'm sure they didn't just hang around that same spot for 25 years. Therefore, when it came time for them to go get Spock, they had to go back to the original entry point which was probably near the Klingon Neutral Zone. Or maybe, after 25 years, the borders had changed and the entry point was deeper inside Klingon space at that point. You never know.

They may possibly have passed by a "Klingon prison planet" and had to push through an armada of Klingons on patrol at the border.

They wouldn't have had to go through Klingon space at all, and even if they did, they're not traveling at 40 mph. They're at warp speed. There is absolutely no reason they would have had to "push through" anything.

Again, borders may have changed a bit in 25 years. Nero may have been somewhere else resupplying his ship and had to get back to the original entry point. Along the way, Klingon patrols may have spotted his ship on long range sensors and sent the armada to investigate. Presto. Nero plows through the armada and goes to the Neutral Zone and picks up Spock. The armada sends out a distress call. The call is picked up by a "prison planet" that is in the proximity. And Uhura translates it later. There ya go.

 

[Pauln6]

If Spock didn't come through at the same entry point Nero would have had no chance of finding Spock. He can't scan the entire galaxy for lightning storms.

Or maybe some of his 25 years was spent consulting with astrophysicists to make sens of the data that the Narada's sensors recorded to try and determine when and where Spock would emerge (unless mining ships have astrophysicists on board - or I suppose that the crew could have taken Open University courses over the 25 years)? Maybe taking out the Klingon fleet was calculated to prevent them from interfering with Spock's emergence within their territory?

 

[I-Am-Zim]

If Spock didn't come through at the same entry point Nero would have had no chance of finding Spock. He can't scan the entire galaxy for lightning storms.

Or maybe some of his 25 years was spent consulting with astrophysicists to make sens of the data that the Narada's sensors recorded to try and determine when and where Spock would emerge (unless mining ships have astrophysicists on board - or I suppose that the crew could have taken Open University courses over the 25 years)? Maybe taking out the Klingon fleet was calculated to prevent them from interfering with Spock's emergence within their territory?

That works too.

 

[Set Harth]

a. there's not a single hint that he does.

Just the whole Romulan-Vulcan thing mentioned explicitly by Spock ( if previous canon is somehow considered inadmissible ).

If Spock didn't come through at the same entry point Nero would have had no chance of finding Spock.

Spock didn't come through at the same entry point. There's no way around that
( other than a rewrite ).

Or maybe some of his 25 years was spent consulting with astrophysicists to make sens of the data that the Narada's sensors recorded to try and determine when and where Spock would emerge

This is addressed in the film.

Yep. I did. And it worked just fine.

As long as you're admitting to rewriting the film.

And what does the Neutral Zone have to do with it?

Spock came through in the Neutral Zone, which is a different location. Or at least that's what canon tells us... if you have any respect for canon, that is.

As far as I can remember, you were the only one who had issue with it.

Let's take it to a poll! It's poll time!!!

Therefore, when it came time for them to go get Spock, they had to go back to the original entry point

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it any more true.

Nero may have been somewhere else resupplying his ship and had to get back to the original entry point. Along the way, Klingon patrols may have spotted his ship on long range sensors and sent the armada to investigate. Presto. Nero plows through the armada and goes to the Neutral Zone and picks up Spock.

Does Nero have to go back to the original entry point, or does he have to go to the Neutral Zone? Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

 

[3D Master]

a. there's not a single hint that he does.

Just the whole Romulan-Vulcan thing mentioned explicitly by Spock in the film ( if previous canon is somehow considered inadmissible ).

Except for that annoying fact, we never see Spock and Nero interact, and thus Spock never tells Nero of the full scale of Vulcan psionics, but eh.

If Spock didn't come through at the same entry point Nero would have had no chance of finding Spock.

Spock didn't come through at the same entry point. There's no way around that
( other than rewriting the film ).

Except that there's not a single hint anywhere where Spock emerged, unless you want to count Kirk's "deduction", but then Kirk's deduction nowhere says anything about the place where Spock emerged, and as a result the "deduction" makes no friggin' sense whatsoever.

This is addressed in the film.

No, it isn't.

Does Nero have to go back to the original entry point, or does he have to go to the Neutral Zone? Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

(Close to) the Neutral Zone IS the original entry point.

 

[Pauln6]

I think they mention the detection of the second lightning storm somewhere but I don't recall where. Nero also says he waited 25 years for Spock but he's vague on how he knew when or where to find him.

 

[Set Harth]

Except for that annoying fact, we never see Spock and Nero interact, and thus Spock never tells Nero of the full scale of Vulcan psionics, but eh.

Right, because that's the only way a Romulan would know anything about Vulcans... if Spock, and only Spock, told him.

No, it isn't.

I guess it's just my word against yours... or not.

(Close to) the Neutral Zone IS the original entry point.

Still just wishful thinking.

Except that there's not a single hint anywhere where Spock emerged

It's becoming increasingly clear that "there's not a single hint" in basher parlance usually translates to "explicitly stated in the film".

unless you want to count Kirk's "deduction", but then Kirk's deduction nowhere says anything about the place where Spock emerged, and as a result the "deduction" makes no friggin' sense whatsoever.

It's not dependent on your failed assumption of spatial proximity in order for it to make sense.

 

[JarodRussell]

Except that there's not a single hint anywhere where Spock emerged

It's becoming increasingly clear that "there's not a single hint" in basher parlance usually translates to "explicitly stated in the film".

Spock emerged from the second "lightning storm", which happened in the Neutral Zone.