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Your first indication the prequels would be bad?

Here's how I definie 'nostalgia', as per my experience with incredibly ardent SW fans:
1) Complaining about the dialogue in the Prequels while simultaneously ignoring the well-documented fact that the dialogue in the OT is just as bad (if you need proof of that, go watch 'Empire of Dreams', and count the number of times that the 3 main leads comment about the difficulty they had in delivering their lines and taking them seriously. Even lines from the OT that worked - like Vader telling Luke that he's really his father - aren't truly the height of sophistication from a writing standpoint, as evidenced by the fact that even said line has ended up becoming the subject of parody and distortion.

2) Complaining about hokey sequences in the PT while ignoring equally hokey sequences in the OT. I'm a SW fan, but if you were going to ask me what the hokiest thing about the OT was, I'd tell you that it's Threepio constantly getting blown up/knocked apart and having to be repaired. Yes, it works, but it's extremely hokey. Most of the situations that Jar Jar finds himself in in TPM are just as hokey, yet nobody seems to complain about the hokiness of Threepio getting knocked about and falling apart.

3) Complaining about 'flat, one-dimensional characters' in the PT (the Neimoidians, some of the Jedi Council members, etc.) while ignoring the fact that, outside of the main characters, almost everyone else in the OT is equally 'flat and one-dimensional', particularly the Empire's officers. Even Tarkin is a very one-dimensional character at his core.

It should be noted that none of these things detract from my enjoyment of either the PT or OT; they're just simply part of what SW is, yet nostalgia has dulled people's acceptance of that to the point where they pick out flaws from the PT without considering and recognizing that the same flaws are part of the 'OT' as well.

I'm gonna go point by point, I guess.
1. Dialogue is often reflexive of the characters and the type of story. In the case of the OT, they were using variations of mythological archetypes. That's why they were simple. Things like the production design as well as what was said aby the characters about the universe made the universe that SW is in seem much bigger. The characters also worked. They were not deep characters, but they were tangible, relateable, and, most of all, believable. As simple as they came across, it also felt like there was more beneath the surface, and to wach them even in non-speaking moments is to see them thinking, to anticipate how the would react. You know that Han wanted to object to Obi Wan as being crazy long before he actually said it verbally (and, even then, it was only after Chewie voiced his dissatifaction first) This nuance is often lost in the new films, as everything is telegraphed and delivered in a flat cardboard way. We are told that characters in the prequel films are firends, but in the OT, we feel that they are.

I disagree with you. I know from personal experience interacting with other SW fans that, regardless of overall perception of/feeling about the PT as a whole, one of the seminal moments from the trilogy that is often focused on as a positive is the relationship between Qui-Gon Jinn and Ob-Wan, and the way that Qui-Gon's death serves as a catalyst for the way that Obi-Wan behaves, and the actions that he takes. If the PT characters were as flat and one-dimensional as you're claiming, this wouldn't be the case.

Also, I'm going to reiterate what I said to RoJoHen about character archetypes. The same basic mythological archetypes and motifs are present in both trilogies, and many of them are actually carried over between the two trilogies. For example, both Leia and Padme fit the 'damsel' archetype, although neither character is the prototypical manifestation of said archetype, since, as Carrie Fisher points out in 'Empire of Dreams', they do not have the reactions that are typical of said archetype.

Regarding the 'dissolution of tension', I'd argue that this too is a 'flaw' that could be applied to the OT as equally as the PT, even if I don't personally see where the person doing that review is coming from with his perspective.

2. C-3P0 was effeminate comic relief, and, for all his antics, none of the things that happened to him in the OT seemed to fly in the face of phyisics. He was only taken apart n Empire, and for good reason. In the original, we have Jar Jar in cartoon style running to avoid blue spheres by contorting his body like the cartoon he is. We have C-3p0 falling and hitting a flying platform, grabbed by a claw and thrown about as if he is made out of nothing. My least favorite sequence in the PT is the R2 units repairing the queens ship. i know that these movies don't follow science at all, particularly with regards to space, but at least the original trilogy treated flying in space with the same kind of respect as if tehy were flying in the air or anywhere, so, as a result, the R2 units always fit into a slot on the ships so they wouldn't fly away from momentum when the ship went forward, but this sequence, the ship is moving, the droids are rolling around on top and working. That was too much too swallow. For more on what I mean, see here, the dissolution of tension.

I want to specifically address the complaint(s) about Jar Jar, but before I do, I must tell you that I find myself confused by the notion that there is anything wrong with the sequence where the R2 units fix the Queen's ship. In all of my interacting with other SW fans - some of them ardent - I've never heard anyone bring up that sequence as one of the failures of the PT.

Now, about Jar Jar's antics and how they correlate with/compare to the actions of 3P0 and the way the two characters are utilized as 'comic relief', I would argue that the way both characters are used reflects the old 'slapstick' style of comedy. In particular, the sequence(s) involving Jar Jar and the boomas (blue spheres) are meant to evoke the comedy routines of Buster Keaton (particularly the sequence where the 'boomas' chase Jar Jar down the hill, which is an almost exact replication of a bit that Buster Keaton used to do involving barrels).

3. This was covered already. In any film, characters other than the main ones could be considreed flat, unless they are written exceedingly well for what they are, and if the character himself or herself has presence. Tarkin had presence to spare, and through him, we got into what must be the typical mindset of all the Moffs. He inbued this simple role with a lot of presence and we really felt that the Empire was larger than we could ever see on screen. Some of the other minor characters in the OT had presence too, but this is lacking in the new trilogy for background characters. I mean, one bounty hunter hires another to do his job, and he gives her a tube of centipedes, and all she does with it is walk four steps and put that tube into a droid. I ask, why couldn't he do that?

As a writer, I can personally attest that sometimes background characters have no true purpose in the story other than propelling said story forward. Zam Wessel is a perfect example of this. As for why Lucas didn't have Jango do the job himself and omit the character of Zam entirely, we could apply a variation of the same question to the OT with regards to the bounty hunters other than Boba Fett, who aren't even used at all in Empire, or any of the myriad array of Imperial officers and lackeys that we're introduced to. The way that Lucas chose to tell his story and the number of background characters he chose to introduce simply for the sake of introducing them in some cases, and/or for the sake of only using them to propel the story forward, is and should by no means be considered a 'flaw'.

BTW, I was not necessarily stating that the fact that the background characters in the OT or PT are flat and one-dimensional IS infact a flaw; I was merely pointing out that it is generally considered to be such, at least in the case of the PT, but without considering that the very same 'flaw' is also present, should one choose to look for it, in the OT.
 
1. When artoo repaired a ship in the OT, he was lodged in. It never felt like (even if they were following the rules of air travel and not space travel) that he would fly out the back, but having mulitple droids rolling along the sirface of a fast-moving ship looked cheesey to me. I don't care if this point was never addressed before.

2. The mythological archetypes were the inspiration for, but not the boundaries of, the original film's characters. The new films were archetypes of similar mythologies in that they were modeled after characters in the original films who in turn were modelled after the archetypes. In other words, copies of copies, and by the third generation a copy loses something. Also look at the this video from 1:52 on, or evenn from 5:30 on.

3. Buster Keaton's kind of humor is far too braod, I think and having Jar Jar animated and contorting his body like Roger Rabbit only made it worse. Plus there is nothing about the boombas we can relate to, save for water baloons. In the original trilogy, we can relate to lasers and lightsabers easily. Watch the video above about the dissolution of tension. When he points out that the Empire chase is simple and yet more effective, I agree, even the second or so he showed of it made me bite my nails.

4. Hiring many bounty hunters is what Vader did, and by having the (at the time)nameless Boba Fett be the most resourceful of all of them elevated his character, but we also get the sense just from looking at their unique designs that each of these bounty hunters had their own unique talents. Fett's set of talents were simply more useful for this job.
 
First major indication: Jar Jar - when he appeared, it was clear he was the new ewok, and Lucas was prioritising selling kid's toys over the quality of the movie.
 
That said, the Prequels are by no means perfect, but neither are the 'Original' films, despite nostalgia indicating otherwise.

It's not nostalgia. It's taste.

Oh, I disagree. It's definitely nostalgia. People like the OT better because those films came first.

Nonsense.

People liked Star Wars because it was an incredibly entertaining film that struck most who saw it - in the contemporary context of that time - as unique and original (that is, no one else was doing anything like it or had done anything like it in the recent past; looked at in a longer view it had many antecedents).

People around the world made it a huge hit because they enjoyed it so much as a movie.

The fourth Star Wars movie did very well only because it was the fourth Star Wars movie. It was not remarkably good or novel in any way. And people will remember and enjoy Luke and Han long after no one bothers with Anakin and whoever-the-fuck-else - that's already halfway to being true only a few years after the release of the final "prequel."

I don't have any particularly nostalgic recall of the early Star Wars films - though I do of the circumstances surrounding the night I saw the first one - because I'm not what you'd call a devoted Star Wars fan. I enjoyed the early SW movies the same way I did dozens of other films in the late seventies and early eighties, no more or less than, say, the Rocky movies or Saturday Night Fever. I suppose that comes of having been an adult when these things first appeared, rather than having them as treasured memories of childhood.
 
I actually didn't think the prequels were that bad- certainly not as awful as some people believe them to be- although I felt pretty underwhelmed the first time I saw TPM and it still isn't one of my favorites but the prequels did get much better and ROTS was nearly as good as ESB and helped me understand more about what had been going on starting in TPM. I think that when I first saw TPM I was taken aback by some of the new characters (Neimodians, Padme), planets (Naboo, Coruscant), names (Sidious??? He LOOKED like the Emperor from ROTJ but I didn't recognize the name) and some of the contrivances bothered me (i.e. Anakin having built C-3P0?). The prequels certainly did not play out anything like I had envisioned although the revelation/twist that the Clones ended up actually fighting with the Jedi and FOR the Republic was a masterstroke by Lucas not to mention the Machiavellian way that Palpatine/Sidious set the Jedi (and even the Separatists) up (not unlike chess pieces) to be wiped out by the Clone Army once he had no more use for them. Lucas may have done a horrific job writing romance for Anakin and Padme in Episode II but his writing for how Palpatine's Empire came into existence and how/why the Jedi Order was brought down was spot-on excellent.
 
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I have fond memories of watching the original Star Wars trilogy as a child. Nostalgia does color my impressions somewhat, but not enough for me to recognize that the prequel trilogy is little more than eye candy with an uninteresting story and characters, and that Return of the Jedi is almost as bad as a prequel-trilogy film.
 
. Lucas may have done a horrific job writing romance for Anakin and Padme in Episode II but his writing for how Palpatine's Empire came into existence and how/why the Jedi Order was brought down was spot-on excellent.

In a way I think Star Wars suffered too much from being Lucas's brainchild.

Had he be happy to write the story outline etc and left the actual script work to some-one else (and the same for the direction) then we would of had much stronger films.
 
Lucas could have done with Tom Stoppard's help in writing the first two prequels. It's widely rumoured that he helped out on RotS but I don't know if that's ever been confirmed.
 
Lucas could have done with Tom Stoppard's help in writing the first two prequels. It's widely rumoured that he helped out on RotS but I don't know if that's ever been confirmed.

ROTS was no better written than the others, but it had the benefit of containing The Scene We'd All Waited Decades to See. All they had to do is have intense visuals for Mustafar and a well-choreographed fight. Neither of those elements have much to do with the writing quality.

I hope Stoppard wasn't responsible for NOOOOOOO!!!! :rommie: Even if he did help with the script, he probably wants to keep it a deep, dark secret.
 
In a way I think Star Wars suffered too much from being Lucas's brainchild.

Had he be happy to write the story outline etc and left the actual script work to some-one else (and the same for the direction) then we would of had much stronger films.

You're probably right although of course, we have to live with the movies we got and, for the most part, they were plenty enjoyable IMHO. The ongoing Clone Wars series is helping with filling in some gaps between AOTC and ROTS, particularly since we got relatively little of the Clone Wars during the aforementioned movies.
I would like some more OT stories personally and I believe that there would be plenty of room for a similar series featuring OT characters set between ANH and ESB. or post-ROTJ.
 
In a way I think Star Wars suffered too much from being Lucas's brainchild.

Had he be happy to write the story outline etc and left the actual script work to some-one else (and the same for the direction) then we would of had much stronger films.

You're probably right although of course, we have to live with the movies we got and, for the most part, they were plenty enjoyable IMHO. The ongoing Clone Wars series is helping with filling in some gaps between AOTC and ROTS, particularly since we got relatively little of the Clone Wars during the aforementioned movies.
I would like some more OT stories personally and I believe that there would be plenty of room for a similar series featuring OT characters set between ANH and ESB. or post-ROTJ.

Problem is that The Clone Wars is contradicted by ROTS with Skywalker being a Jedi Master and having a Padawan.
 
Guess what George?----the 'resistance' movements in WWII didn't defeat the Nazis----giant armies with tanks and planes and ships did!
So don't give me some crap about asymetrical warfare and try and shove it down my throat.

This argument that the Ewoks defeated the Empire is a huge misinterpretation. What exactly did the Ewoks do? With help from the Rebels, they were able to stop an mini-invasion of their planet. That's really about it.

They didn't do jack with the Death Star (shield generator aside). They had nothing to do with taking down the Emperor or Vader. And after the Battle of Endor, the Empire is still around everywhere else in the galaxy. True, the Emperor was dead and the Empire probably became disorganized at the top, but it was still there.

If there were no Eworks, Luke still would have gone to the Death Star and the Emperor and Vader would still have died.

Sure, the Ewoks helped, but I find their contribution in taking down the Empire is grossly overstated by fans.
 
Guess what George?----the 'resistance' movements in WWII didn't defeat the Nazis----giant armies with tanks and planes and ships did!
So don't give me some crap about asymetrical warfare and try and shove it down my throat.

This argument that the Ewoks defeated the Empire is a huge misinterpretation. What exactly did the Ewoks do? With help from the Rebels, they were able to stop an mini-invasion of their planet. That's really about it.

They didn't do jack with the Death Star (shield generator aside). They had nothing to do with taking down the Emperor or Vader. And after the Battle of Endor, the Empire is still around everywhere else in the galaxy. True, the Emperor was dead and the Empire probably became disorganized at the top, but it was still there.

If there were no Eworks, Luke still would have gone to the Death Star and the Emperor and Vader would still have died.

Sure, the Ewoks helped, but I find their contribution in taking down the Empire is grossly overstated by fans.

Broccoli, the ewoks occupied half of 'The return of the jedi'. This means that, as far as on-screen events go, their contribution to defeating the empire was essential. For most people (except for die-hard fans, the only ones who discuss EU's logical integrity and take into account EU events) the ewoks defeated the empire.


And yes, 1 meter tall, not strong/fast at all teddy-bears defeating an interstellar travel level army with stones and wooden spears is ludicrous.
Of course, Lucas wasn't going for realism when he made the ewoks; their design and actions were specificaly targeted at selling lots of ewoks toys - the fact that 'The return of the jedi' has arguably become targeted at children, greatly decreasing its value for any adult audience was of secondary importance.
 
Sure, the Ewoks helped, but I find their contribution in taking down the Empire is grossly overstated by fans.

Agreed. While their actions helped decapitate the Empire, so to speak, the loss of the Death Star and the Executor doesn't mean that the Empire's tens of thousands of ships and millions of troops suddenly disappeared.

The real balance between the Empire and the Rebellion can be seen in the Battle of Hoth - Rebels firing tiny pop guns at giant Imperial Walkers and then being forced to run for their lives when they had no effect.
 
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