Should they bring back Janeway?

[Therin of Andor]

Yes I have noticed it, and I disagree with it. It existed for the very reason of not angering the fan of the different series by doing things just as they didn't with Admiral Janeway. Also it existed to help keep the canon (tv series, and movies) & non Canon (books) for having major conflicting storylines.

You are incorrect.

Those Submission Guidelines aren't ever aimed at the regular stable of ST authors, and never were. They are only aimed at first-time, would-be ST authors, so they can prove to Simon & Schuster and Pocket's editors that they can follow instructions and craft a ST story that reflects only canonical ST.

But if/when one your novel proposal is accepted, you can negotiate with the editors and CBS Licensing on any plot elements that might deviate from the guidelines you had to follow to get the right to pitch.

Any new non canon written from this point out now has to work with these non canon changes instead of being able to create works from within the established canon because if they do they cause conflict to the non canon.

Again, incorrect. In one ST novel series, Nurse Ogawa has an only child, a girl. In a different ST novel series, she has an only child, a boy.

Ensign Rager, now promoted, is seemingly serving on two starships at the same time.

"Crucible: McCoy" and "Crucible: Spock" deliberately ignore many other ST novels.

Admiral Janeway is alive and well in the Shatnerverse novels and the new "Star Trek Online" novel tie-in.

 

[Tidus79001]

So you have noticed that the rule you pointed to (which by the way only was applied when this is the writer's first trek book ever and NOT on any further trek books they write) isn't being used by Pocket for a while now.

Yes I have noticed it, and I disagree with it. It existed for the very reason of not angering the fan of the different series by doing things just as they didn't with Admiral Janeway.

So Riker and Troi should never have kids and Picard can't get married and be happy because this may anger the fans?

Because if that's the case these fictional characters need better fans.

Oh also the J/C would be shit out of luck if the writers were held to that rule.

Also it existed to help keep the canon (tv series, and movies) & non Canon (books) for having major conflicting storylines.

Yeah, JJ Abrams pretty much made sure that doesn't have to be a factor for the foreseeable future.

I didn't want get started about what JJ Abrams did to Star Trek, but I feel that CBS just doesn't care who it alienates in order to make a buck. Paramount may have made some bad decisions, but they never seemed hell bent on alienating the lifelong Star Trek fans.

I as many other Star Trek fans like the Roddenberry Star Trek I grew up knowing for all of these years. Seeing JJ Arbams who admitted he wasn't a Star Trek fan come along & hijack it, and make it a shallow version of what it was is the ultimate insult to a lifelong Star Trek fan such as myself.

It is like having people you don't know move into your house, & take it over, and you are either expected to be content with being forced to watch it happen, or move out.

Well now that I have gone totally off topic that is all I have to say on that matter. This is a discussion about the death of Admiral Janeway, and that rant about JJ Abrams is as far as I want to discuss that topic.

 

[Thestral]

Something I don't understand, maybe somebe can explain it to me.

Why are certain posters saying "I've been a Star Trek fan since ___" as though it matters?

I mean, I recognize the folks being tongue in cheek, , but I mean the ones who seem to include it as part of a serious point?

Is it some sort of hierarchy? "I've been around longer so my opinion is more important"? "I've been around longer so I know what I'm talking about, and you don't"?

I mean, if I'm, say... a second-generation Star Trek fan, do I get some kind of hereditary rights?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yes I have noticed it, and I disagree with it. It existed for the very reason of not angering the fan of the different series by doing things just as they didn't with Admiral Janeway.

So Riker and Troi should never have kids and Picard can't get married and be happy because this may anger the fans?

Because if that's the case these fictional characters need better fans.

Oh also the J/C would be shit out of luck if the writers were held to that rule.

Also it existed to help keep the canon (tv series, and movies) & non Canon (books) for having major conflicting storylines.

Yeah, JJ Abrams pretty much made sure that doesn't have to be a factor for the foreseeable future.

I didn't want get started about what JJ Abrams did to Star Trek, but I feel that CBS just doesn't care who it alienates in order to make a buck.

Outside of the novels and selling the DVD/Blu Rays of the series CBS hasn't had anything to do with Star Trek these days and they were the ones that put the Q ending in the book.

Paramount may have made some bad decisions, but they never seemed hell bent on alienating the lifelong Star Trek fans.

I as many other Star Trek fans like the Roddenberry Star Trek I grew up knowing for all of these years. Seeing JJ Arbams who admitted he wasn't a Star Trek fan come along & hijack it, and make it a shallow version of what it was is the ultimate insult to a lifelong Star Trek fan such as myself.

Many TOS fans and other trek fans in general myself included disagree. Also Paramount NOT CBS made Star Trek (2009).

It is like having people you don't know move into your house, & take it over, and you are either expected to be content with being forced to watch it happen, or move out.

Sigh, all the original stuff still exists JJ Abrams didn't send his "evil" minons to destroy it all.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I didn't want get started about what JJ Abrams did to Star Trek, but I feel that CBS just doesn't care who it alienates in order to make a buck. Paramount may have made some bad decisions, but they never seemed hell bent on alienating the lifelong Star Trek fans.

Again, you are incorrect. CBS owns the ST TV shows. Paramount owns the ST movies, and were behind giving the reigns to JJ Abrams and Bad Robot.

I as many other Star Trek fans like the Roddenberry Star Trek I grew up knowing for all of these years. Seeing JJ Arbams who admitted he wasn't a Star Trek fan come along & hijack it, and make it a shallow version of what it was is the ultimate insult to a lifelong Star Trek fan such as myself.

Again, you are incorrect. JJ Abrams spoke about attending the gala premiere of ST:TMP at the Smithsonian Institute. He admits to not enjoying ST:TMP and wondered why he, as a kid, responded better to the "Star Wars" films than developing an interest in "Star Trek".

It is like having people you don't know move into your house, & take it over, and you are either expected to be content with being forced to watch it happen, or move out.

Hate the script of JJ's movie all you like, but it was written by two guys who are so into TOS that they had read many of the ST novels before they became successful screenwriters. They added elements from the novels into their script. They also have a huge fondness for TNG, which is why the made sure that TNG characters featured in their story for the tie-in "Countdown" comic mini-series.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Isn't putting a character "in the freezer" exactly what DS9 did with Ben Sisko at the end of its TV finale? And what "Generations" did with James Kirk at the beginning of that movie? And, in ENT, Trip Tucker was actually put into a freezer in the finale: we saw Phlox sliding Trip's body into it on a morgue tray!

Errr... no. You're talking about morgue freezers. Brit is talking about freezers freezers.

"Women in freezers" refers to something that happened in the pages of Green Lantern about a decade ago. Kyle Rayner's girlfriend was, if I'm remembering correctly, captured by one his enemies, tortured to death, and then her body was stuffed in his refrigerator. So, he comes home, opens his refrigerator, and there's the body of his dead girlfriend.

The term "women in refrigerators" or "women in freezers," which is what Brit is referring to here, has to do with extreme and disproportionate violence shown toward female characters and that may be motivated because because of the character's gender.

The other classic example, though it didn't involve a refrigerator, was the death of the fourth Robin, Stephanie Brown, who was tortured by Black Mask with power drills.

Brit is trying to link Janeway's assimilation and death to the "women in refrigerators" motif. It's a false linkage, but that's where she's arguing from, Ian.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why are certain posters saying "I've been a Star Trek fan since ___" as though it matters?

To pre-empt other posters from asking them how long they've been a ST fan?

The pics I use as TrekBBS avatars are of me, from the early 80s, dressed as an Andorian. I have received PMs dressing me down for being such a young whippersnapper for not agreeing with them - not realising that I'm now 51 and the avatar pics depict Therin of Andor at ages 21 to 30.

 

[Tidus79001]

CBS owns the ST TV shows. Paramount owns the ST movies, and were behind giving the reigns to JJ Abrams and Bad Robot.

Oh good! Does this mean now the canon of the tv series can conflict with the canon of the movies? Oh wait! It already does conflict JJ Abrams saw to that!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Brit is trying to link Janeway's assimilation and death to the "women in refrigerators" motif .

Ok, I didn't bother trying to delve through the Tropes site - been there before and it's a horrendous task - and the term sounded to me Brit was complaining about the ST novels putting a character out of action for a while. Which is what sending Janeway to the Q did. But it's certainly not a tactic that only affects female characters.

I'm sure there are thousands of examples where male heroes get beaten up and are found by the women they loved. So I continue to fail to see the significance. Janeway's treatment by the Borg was pretty similar to what the Borg Queen did to Picard and Data, and Beverly Crusher had to nurse them both back to health.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The other classic example, though it didn't involve a refrigerator, was the death of the fourth Robin, Stephanie Brown, who was tortured by Black Mask with power drills.

Actually is found not to long after that that Leslie Thompkins had deliberately treated Brown's injuries improperly and that had been the actual cause of her death and had Thompkins treated brown's injuries properly she would have survived.

Spoiler: And most recently

The was reconted to Leslie Thompkins faking Stephanie Brown's death to protect her

Also at least Stephanie Brown wasn't beaten half to death by the Joker using a crowbar eho then then left a bomb behind to finish the job just because a bunch of comic fans voted to kill off the character like Jason Todd was.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Oh good! Does this mean now the canon of the tv series can conflict with the canon of the movies? Oh wait! It already does conflict JJ Abrams saw to that!

If a new ST TV show comes along, it will get to chose whether to be part of JJ Abrams' universe or whether it follows the timeline we know from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Both timelines seemingly share ENT.

 

[Tidus79001]

Oh good! Does this mean now the canon of the tv series can conflict with the canon of the movies? Oh wait! It already does conflict JJ Abrams saw to that!

If a new ST TV show comes along, it will get to chose whether to be part of JJ Abrams' universe or whether it follows the timeline we know from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Both timelines seemingly share ENT.

I hope that Gene Roddenberry is haunting JJ Abrams even as we speak.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I hope that Gene Roddenberry is haunting JJ Abrams even as we speak.

How ironic that Majel Barrett, Mrs Gene Roddenberry, embraced JJ Abrams' script, and agreed to voice the ship's computer one last time, her final acting role before her death.

So I can see Majel - in full Mrs Troi mode - berating Gene for daring to consider haunting JJ.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I hope that Gene Roddenberry is haunting JJ Abrams even as we speak.

How ironic that Majel Barrett, Mrs Gene Roddenberry, embraced JJ Abrams' script, and agreed to voice the ship's computer one last time, her final acting role before her death.

Not to mention I believe Roddenberry once said he didn't have a problem with rebooting TOS.

 

[Tidus79001]

I hope that Gene Roddenberry is haunting JJ Abrams even as we speak.

How ironic that Majel Barrett, Mrs Gene Roddenberry, embraced JJ Abrams' script, and agreed to voice the ship's computer one last time, her final acting role before her death.

Not to mention I believe Roddenberry once said he didn't have a problem with rebooting TOS.

I am not totally opposed to a reboot, but I do think it could be done without conflicting with the already established canon.

On that note please lets get back on topic. This discussion is about the death of Admiral Janeway, and IS NOT a discussion about Abrams-Trek.

 

[Therin of Andor]

This discussion is about the death of Admiral Janeway

And she'll probably be back, just in time for the next significant "Star Trek: Voyager" anniversary. The problem will be, as it was before she died, what to do with her?

A Starfleet admiral is usually used, in the TV series and the licensed fiction, as a figurehead. A "giving orders from above" role. Peter David made sure his newly-promoted Admiral Shelby had a space station and two starships under her admiralty supervisory duties, but his "New Frontier" books usually keep within their own community.

What can be done with Janeway that will link her intrinsically with the VOY TV series and the supporting characters whom she used to lead - that she has seemingly outgrown? Not to mention that death and exposure to the Q Continuum should change her in some way. She cannot be the old Captain/Admiral any more. I cannot think of anything that will pacify angry Janeway fans, barring a reversal of actual history.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Maybe if she came back with full Q powers. That way the Janeway fans finally see their heroine achieve godhood, and nobody will be able to stand between JaneQuay and her self-righteous, holier-than-thou, mother-to-the-galaxy goals.

She will make there be coffee in that damn nebula!

 

[Therin of Andor]

I just braved that horrid "TV Tropes" site again and it mentions, about the "Women in the Refrigerator" trope, that "the original site focused on just the treatment of women in comics but over time, other sources have added men to the list, creating the blanket term "Stuffed In The Fridge" to cover more ground".

So, again, I fail to see that the Janeway case is necessarily a feminism/stereotyping issue. (But then, as a man, of course I'd say that!)

 

[Tidus79001]

This discussion is about the death of Admiral Janeway

And she'll probably be back, just in time for the next significant "Star Trek: Voyager" anniversary. The problem will be, as it was before she died, what to do with her?

A Starfleet admiral is usually used, in the TV series and the licensed fiction, as a figurehead. A "giving orders from above" role. Peter David made sure his newly-promoted Admiral Shelby had a space station and two starships under her admiralty supervisory duties, but his "New Frontier" books usually keep within their own community.

What can be done with Janeway that will link her intrinsically with the VOY TV series and the supporting characters whom she used to lead - that she has seemingly outgrown? Not to mention that death and exposure to the Q Continuum should change her in some way. She cannot be the old Captain/Admiral any more. I cannot think of anything that will pacify angry Janeway fans, barring a reversal of actual history.

They can have Admiral Janeway take up the misson responsibilities of Admiral Willem Batiste since he is no longer on the misssion, and since the Starfleet had intended for an Admiral to oversee the mission. There is no one in in Starfeet more qualified than her to oversee this mission.

As for Captain Afsarah Eden her role was temporary & she is a disposable character. I think that I speak for all true Voyager fans when I say they can kill Captain Afsarah Eden off, and no one will care.

Admiral Janeway may have been opposed to sending Voyager back out the Delta Quadrant, but now that they are there she would want to be there to protect them. Admiral Janeway is nothing else if not devoted to the well being of her crew.

 

[timewarped]

there is a reason voyager fans and janeway fans in particular do not visit this forum. I came here strictly to vote.
If i wanted to hear whiny baby boys all day, i'd sit in a daycare.