Should they bring back Janeway?

[Defcon]

I don't speak German either, however I've had a lot of experience last fall with good old Google The major problem is that it translates almost too literally and usually picks the most used words instead of the right ones. My experience was helping a German woman who spoke little English to translate her fic into English. To complicate this I speak no German at all.

I have asked some of my German contacts and was told that the post was made in jest as a joke, and from experience I've found google is notorious at not getting jokes. However as a mod from message board myself and a junior administrator from another, your mod should be able to sort it out, only they have to look at all votes no matter which side they are on.

I'm not sure I'm buying the "it was all a joke" view of that thread. It came to our attention because Defcon pointed it out and I'm pretty sure he's German and he didn't give an indication those posts were said in jest.

Yeah, I'm German and a post like this (9th post of the page) pretty much makes it impossible to see the multi-accounting as a joke:

Aber nicht dass das auffällt, mit mehreren Email Adressen...

und die Abstimmung nachher ungültig ist

das wäre schade!

Translation (by me):

But take care that it isn't to obvious with the multiple Email adresses so that the vote isn't invalid in the end that would be a shame!

I have to admit the first sentence is somewhat difficult to translate verbatim, so if other German speaking posters have a different translation feel free to add it.

Later in the thread (and interestingly enough after I posted the link to the board here), they began to say it was a joke because Kathryn J., who I assume is the same poster here, told them she was asked (probably by Brit according to her post above) if it was a joke.

Doesn't help that some of them aren't able to play along after they have decided to cover it up with the "joke" explanation, when for example one poster says that nobody can say anything if her Grandma votes, too.


ETA:

6) It was a Next Generation novel, not a Voyager one.

Not that that helps anything.

But is shows how "well" informed some of the MJFers are about the whole situation.

 

[Thrawn]

Right. And what I'm saying is, they still managed to get a total number of votes that's almost too small to even be considered "laughable". They can stack the poll all they want; all they're doing is making my point even stronger - these people are virulent, but there's no evidence they exist in the kinds of numbers they continuously claim.

Google hits and fan fiction numbers mean nothing; we need proof that there are enormous numbers of people who:
1) Were buying the books before,
2) But aren't buying them now,
3) Because Janeway died and for no other reason, and
4) Would buy them if Janeway came back, no matter what.

This is a very VERY different set of people than "Janeway fans". Yes, there are a ton of Janeway fans. I myself am one; she was definitely my favorite character on Voyager (though probably not for reasons the Janeway fans would find appealing; I basically liked her because she was an unapologetic war criminal, and I found that interesting.) But just because there are a million hits for Janeway or whatever does not mean that ANY of the four conditions above are met.

KRAD's oft-quoted line coming into play, as always - never mistake the bitching of a few fans on the internet for any kind of trend.

 

[Thrawn]

I mean, at the risk of sounding a little batshit insane, I had picked up a couple of Trek books in early '08 (The Buried Age, Vanguard) because they sounded nifty, but when I heard they KILLED JANEWAY, that sounded so ballsy and interesting that I began to investigate the main continuity further... and then heard about Destiny, so started buying the books I'd need for Destiny...

...and two years later, I've purchased 173 Star Trek books, mostly out of print ones for Kindle. 173! Look at how much money they made off of ME because they were ballsy enough to kill Janeway. I bet by the end of this year, it'll be around 250. So, in 2.5 years, I'd have amassed more purchasing power than that ENTIRE poll's worth of people buying Full Circle & Unworthy.

I realize I am an outlier... a far, far outlier. But seriously.

(You can check, too - some of my very first posts here are about Before Dishonor and how much I liked it, and my first large presence came in the Janeway death threads. This BROUGHT me to TrekLit as a real obsession.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

Look at how much money they made off of ME because they were ballsy enough to kill Janeway.

As Marco used to indicate, he'd rather edit a book that polarized the readership - really got people talking, debating, thinking - than a totally forgettable, inoffensive novel that just sat there on shelves garnering lukewarm reviews.

 

[Gorf]

Later in the thread (and interestingly enough after I posted the link to the board here), they began to say it was a joke because Kathryn J., who I assume is the same poster here, told them she was asked (probably by Brit according to her post above) if it was a joke.

Actually, I believe that was me. I asked the question on another board after reading your message here. My German leaves much to be desired and since I don't trust Google to translate properly, I decided to ask.

I got the same reply, they meant it only as a joke; however, not being able to read it myself, I'm not quite sure what to think, but I do know one thing; such statements make this poll a bit pointless because once the seed of mistrust has been sown the truth never matters.

For the record, I voted once and once only!

 

[Brit]

Look at how much money they made off of ME because they were ballsy enough to kill Janeway.

As Marco used to indicate, he'd rather edit a book that polarized the readership - really got people talking, debating, thinking - than a totally forgettable, inoffensive novel that just sat there on shelves garnering lukewarm reviews.

The point has never been how much money they made by being "ballsy" as you call it, but rather how much money they have lost and lose every day by not keeping Janeway and writing the kind of story her fans are dying to read. That's always been the point.

To back up your side, you say she has no fans or that they are few and non existent. You say prove Janeway fans exist. It cannot be proved unless you are ballsy enough to bring her back and write the kind of story we want to read, that would be what would take courage, much more courage than using Janeway in a third rate story based on a much used and now distained comic book trope. A trope that is thought of by a great number of fans, and writers as being anti female.

It is very interesting that Pocket Books chose Peter David to write the death of Janeway, as he is familiar with the trope and actually tries to defend it as a viable plot devise. I gave you all the link, now go back and read it.

Brit

 

[elaithin]

There is absolutely zero valid comparison to Janeway's death and the women in refrigerators trope, Brit. Your point is completely invalid, please stop repeating it.

And again - there is no evidence at all that Pocket has lost ANY money - because it seems the overwhelming majority of the protestors do not read the books, did not read the books, and will not read the books.

Which means, to the editors and all the people responsible for the Star Trek novel line, their opinion means precisely dick.

 

[Brit]

There is absolutely zero valid comparison to Janeway's death and the women in refrigerators trope, Brit. Your point is completely invalid, please stop repeating it.

It is a valid comparison, and many other people think so, your opinion is only that yours and I will continue to make a comparison that is vary valid. There is an ignore button if you don't want to see my points, you are welcome to use it.

Brid

 

[brcarthey]

1) The people that DO hold the creative rights to the Star Trek must approve, in full, every outline and manuscript published. They DID approve of Janeway's fate.

2) In fact, they were the ones that decided to make Janeway become a Q instead of die completely, but they did not make any mandate that she return. They only required that the story be written so that, if desired, she could return at some future point.

you're both right and wrong, thrawn. PB did ask for a story where janeway was killed off, but they had no intention of bringing her back. it was CBS (who you know owns all the television trek properties) requested that she not be killed off permanently after PD had really already finished the novel. he had to go back and tack on that final chapter with janeway and lady Q.

as a VOY fan, i sympathize with the janeway fans and was saddened by her demise, even disappointed that it happened in a TNG novel. however, i have really enjoyed KB's books and don't mind if janeway is left dead for now. even though i do hope she comes back, i won't lose sleep over it if she doesn't.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Not to sound like a broken record, but the problem I have is that at no point did I believe Janeway died in Before Dishonor. I went into the book with a "The bitch is finally gonna get what's coming to her!" attitude (getting into the spirit of things, you might say ), and although I enjoyed the book her "death" was awful. It doesn't deserve to be called a death no matter how "final" everyone in charge said it was after the point.

I don't see why CBS wanted such an obvious, blatant and ruining "out". Sci-fi characters have come back from far, far worse. A definitive death could have been gotten around just as easily as the rubbish one we got.

 

[RonG]

The point has never been how much money they made by being "ballsy" as you call it, but rather how much money they have lost and lose every day by not keeping Janeway and writing the kind of story her fans are dying to read. That's always been the point.

This had been said several times in this thread already. If Janeway's fans are "dying to read" one kind of story (in which she's alive, and for some - Captain of Voyager), then prove it - *buy* some TV-era or Relaunch VOY novels and write to Pocket Books about your wishes. Some sayings come to mind - one about actions being loude than words and another about putting your money where your mouth is.

To back up your side, you say she has no fans or that they are few and non existent. You say prove Janeway fans exist. It cannot be proved unless you are ballsy enough to bring her back and write the kind of story we want to read, that would be what would take courage, much more courage than using Janeway in a third rate story based on a much used and now distained comic book trope. A trope that is thought of by a great number of fans, and writers as being anti female.

No one *ever* said there were no Janeway fans..., and your repeated rhetoric about a plot device in a TNG book being anti-female (!) over and over makes people take your point.. a bit less seriously, to be *very* gentle

It is very interesting that Pocket Books chose Peter David to write the death of Janeway, as he is familiar with the trope and actually tries to defend it as a viable plot devise. I gave you all the link, now go back and read it.

Brit

Imagine that - an author thinks a part of his plot is valid - the nerve..

 

[Brit]

Women in Refrigerators Syndrome describes the use of the death or injury of a female comic book character as a plot device in a story starring a male comic book character. It is also used to note the depowerment or elimination of a female comic book character within a comic book universe.

Cases of 'Women in Refrigerators Syndrome' deal with a gruesome injury or murder of a female character at the hands of a supervillain, usually as a motivating personal tragedy for a male superhero to whom the victim is connected. The death or injury of the female character then helps cement the hatred between the hero and the villain responsible.

Lets see, Janeway assimilated, turned into the Borg Queen and made the villain of the story so that Star Fleet has to hunt her down and kill her. Kathryn Janeway was kidnapped, raped and then murdered. All to further the development of the male character or characters of the story. It has a horrible death as are most of the ones covered under the header “Women in Refrigerators.” But there is one other problem.

John Bartol wrote Dead Men Defrosting and argued that when male heroes are killed or altered, they are more typically returned to their status quo. According to Bartol, after most female characters are altered they are, "never allowed, as male heroes usually are, the chance to return to their original heroic states. And that's where we begin to see the difference.

You not only have a dead Kathryn Janeway, you are also demanding that she have to suffer to be returned and that can be interpreted as “diminished.” We want her back, as Kathryn Janeway, Admiral in Starfleet. A person that has ties to others through friendship and love. You even replaced the Kathryn Janeway character with another woman who is subordinate to other male characters. Just because you don’t like “women” in charge, doesn’t mean everyone likes the same.

You are the ones that didn’t read Voyager Books, you had your Next Generation books and your DS9 books but you commandeered our books and then tell us we don’t count, that your preferences are the popular ones. You have no idea what is popular or not, you all set here in your little cocoon of “Trek Literature” and think you are the final word of what Trek Literature should be.

I’ve told you before and I will say it again, we want Janeway back. We will use any venue to promote that goal be it the Trek BBS or Facebook or Twitter or anything else. You are not all the fans, you are not even a fraction of the fans, and yet you demand all of Trek, all of Trek Literature as if it was your right and it’s not. We have been shouted down the last time, we will not go away, and whenever a pole is here we will see and announce it to our fandom.

We would care nothing for your pole except that Trek authors post here and Trek editors have posted here at times, there is a Pocket Books presence here and it’s time they heard everyone, not just the usual voices of Trek Lit. No one has to like what we say, but we have the right to say it and say it we will, over and over until our goal is met.

Brit

 

[F. King Daniel]

Brit, I really think you're reading too deep into Janeway's death. A character was (supposedly) killed in a Star Trek book. It wasn't part of some greater anti-feminism scheme. If it were Janeway wouldn't be alive and well in Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many or Captain's Glory - she would have been shut down for good.

Star Trek's universe is a 100% equal society. That's not being subverted.

This reminds me of all that rubbish about STXI being sexist.

 

[RonG]

Lets see, Janeway assimilated, turned into the Borg Queen and made the villain of the story so that Star Fleet has to hunt her down and kill her. Kathryn Janeway was kidnapped, raped and then murdered. All to further the development of the male character or characters of the story. It has a horrible death as are most of the ones covered under the header “Women in Refrigerators.” But there is one other problem.

I'm sorry, but how can you claim that Janeway's fate was pnly done in order to "further development of male character/s"? What about Seven, who was a central character in BD, perhaps the biggest character on VOY (after Janeway), and the one who has felt the impact of her death just about the most?

I don't think Janeway's death was made to further developments in other characters per se, but rather to move the Borg threat plot forward. *But*, if any characters were affected the most, they were Seven (AFAIK a strong female character) and Chakotay (Janeway's "soulmate", according to the supposedly-legion of K/C fans)

You not only have a dead Kathryn Janeway, you are also demanding that she have to suffer to be returned and that can be interpreted as “diminished.” We want her back, as Kathryn Janeway, Admiral in Starfleet. A person that has ties to others through friendship and love. You even replaced the Kathryn Janeway character with another woman who is subordinate to other male characters. Just because you don’t like “women” in charge, doesn’t mean everyone likes the same.

Wasn't Captain Eden, the "replacement", made to be Fleet Commander in Unworthy? Where do you get your information from, exactly? Have you even *read* the book?

Also, do you want Janeway to return as VOY's Captain and central character, or as the supporting character she was as an Admiral?

You are the ones that didn’t read Voyager Books, you had your Next Generation books and your DS9 books but you commandeered our books and then tell us we don’t count, that your preferences are the popular ones. You have no idea what is popular or not, you all set here in your little cocoon of “Trek Literature” and think you are the final word of what Trek Literature should be.

No one "commandeered your books", Brit. Many of "you" never even read the blasted things. And AFAIK, the authors and editors *are* the final word on Trek Lit on any given moment - not any of the readers / fans, who have a choice - to spend their hard-earned money on the product, or not (or to *not* spend money on it, and bitch and moan all the same)

I’ve told you before and I will say it again, we want Janeway back. We will use any venue to promote that goal be it the Trek BBS or Facebook or Twitter or anything else. You are not all the fans, you are not even a fraction of the fans, and yet you demand all of Trek, all of Trek Literature as if it was your right and it’s not. We have been shouted down the last time, we will not go away, and whenever a pole is here we will see and announce it to our fandom.

I do so want to see your Social Media (or any other, for that matter) campaign.. If it succeeds, more power to you . For the moment, you're all words...

We would care nothing for your pole except that Trek authors post here and Trek editors have posted here at times, there is a Pocket Books presence here and it’s time they heard everyone, not just the usual voices of Trek Lit. No one has to like what we say, but we have the right to say it and say it we will, over and over until our goal is met.

Indeed you do, Brit. Just *define* what your goal is first...

 

[JoeP]

All to further the development of the male character or characters of the story.

Wrong. Seven is female, B'elanna is female, Miral is female, Naomi Wildman is female. Stop ignoring the facts. Repeating over and over that the motives to kill off Janeway were sexist does not make it true.

You even replaced the Kathryn Janeway character with another woman who is subordinate to other male characters. Just because you don’t like “women” in charge, doesn’t mean everyone likes the same.

Again not true.

Spoiler: Unworthy spoilers

Eden is commanding the entire fleet after Batiste rejoined 8472.

You are the ones that didn’t read Voyager Books, you had your Next Generation books and your DS9 books but you commandeered our books and then tell us we don’t count, that your preferences are the popular ones. You have no idea what is popular or not, you all set here in your little cocoon of “Trek Literature” and think you are the final word of what Trek Literature should be.

We certainly did read the Voyager books. They are not YOUR books. They were never YOUR books.

I’ve told you before and I will say it again, we want Janeway back. We will use any venue to promote that goal be it the Trek BBS or Facebook or Twitter or anything else. You are not all the fans, you are not even a fraction of the fans, and yet you demand all of Trek, all of Trek Literature as if it was your right and it’s not. We have been shouted down the last time, we will not go away, and whenever a pole is here we will see and announce it to our fandom.

YOU are the ones irrationally demanding changes. If "we" are not a fraction of the fans, YOU are an even smaller part. It makes no sense creatively or financially to tailor the Trek line of books to your every whim, regardless of whatever baseless claims about lost sales you come up with.

We would care nothing for your pole except that Trek authors post here and Trek editors have posted here at times, there is a Pocket Books presence here and it’s time they heard everyone, not just the usual voices of Trek Lit. No one has to like what we say, but we have the right to say it and say it we will, over and over until our goal is met.

And we have every right to shout you down and point out the irrationality of your positions. You don't have to like what we say, but we have the right to say it, and say it we will.

 

[William Leisner]

I wonder how many extra copies of Before Dishonor, Full Circle and Unworthy this thread is responsible for selling?

 

[Galekarens]

It is not irrational to want the MAIN character of a TV show, which her fans invested seven and more years of their viewing life into, be placed back into the only professional media that is now available, the "Voyager" books. They are not "Voyager" without Kathryn Janeway. There are many people who think so, not just the brave and sensible ones who are posting here. Even if Pocket Books is recalcitrant (bad move, less "VOY" books will be bought), we will have succeeded, as so many KJ fans have come "out of the wood work" and are supporting her and the effort to right such a wrong. KJ Lives! GS (30 yr. Trek- TOS, TNG, DS9, AND VOY -fan).

 

[JoeP]

It is not irrational to want the MAIN character of a TV show, which her fans invested seven and more years of their viewing life into, be placed back into the only professional media that is now available, the "Voyager" books. They are not "Voyager" without Kathryn Janeway. There are many people who think so, not just the few brave ones who are posting here. Even if Pocket Books is recalcitrant (bad move, less "VOY" books will be bought), we will have succeeded, as so many KJ fans have come "out of the wood work" and are supporting her and the effort to right a wrong. KJ Lives! GS (30 yr. Trek- TOS, TNG, DS9, AND VOY -fan).

Arguments and claims of sexism ARE irrational. The reasons behind the decision to off Janeway have been stated and re-stated MANY MANY MANY times, but the congregation of the Church of the Living Janeway refuses to accept them, instead hurling insults at the editors and authors. Which is fine, but we then move past the point of tolerance and reasoned debate with them to ridicule, which is fun too.

As for the "lost sales", I'm confident there are those that will now "come out of the wood work" and read Voyager books precisely BECAUSE of the renewed creative direction. They're supporting the right decision of setting Voyager down the path that it has gone. It's certainly brought back me into the fold. I read the books during the series run, and the first two post-finale books. They were pretty lame, so I skipped the Spirit Walk books. I then picked up Full Circle precisely because of the storytelling possibilities a dead Janeway provides and it, along with Unworthy were grand slam homeruns.

Voyager is dead! Long live Voyager!!

Joe (20 yr. Trek- TOS, TNG, DS9 AND VOY -fan)

 

[elaithin]

I wonder how many extra copies of Before Dishonor, Full Circle and Unworthy this thread is responsible for selling?

Many, I hope. Very, very many.

 

[JoeP]

I wonder how many extra copies of Before Dishonor, Full Circle and Unworthy this thread is responsible for selling?

Many, I hope. Very, very many.

Seconded.