5x02 The Beast Below (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[Pindar]

Good I enjoyed it.

Would have liked to see Katy Brand doing her Queen, in the episode Liz X remind me of her.

 

[Starkers]

Hopefully not enough to matter.

Especially since it'd be pretty amusing, given the ethnic changes the Royal Family has undergone in the past. They weren't always of German descent, for instance -- nor were they always of Scottish descent, or Norman descent! An ancient Anglo-Saxon might be pretty upset at the thought of the English throne falling into the hands of a Scottish, and then a German, dynasty.

And, of course, there's nothing in particular to stop the throne from falling into the hands of a Briton of African descent just within our lifetimes. If Prince William were to marry a black woman, they may well have biracial children by the time he ascends to the throne -- and from there, his heir could easily marry another black person, producing an heir who is him/herself visibly almost completely black. Were that to happen, the Royal Family would be black within two generations!

Actually I think it would have been more radical if the queen had been of Indian/Pakistani decent, especially considering that today those people make up a far larger portion of the UK population than those of afro-carribean origin. It's a weird quirk I've noticed, the news couldn't stop going on about whether we'd ever have a black PM after Obama was elected, I thought the same then, the liklihood is we'd have an Indian PM first.

I'd argue that the issue that determines the likelihood of a member of a given group ascending to high office is not so much population size as the question of to what extent that group is discriminated against or oppressed.

To put it another way: Jewish Americans make up a much smaller percentage of the American population than African-Americans. Yet, because Jews have not historically been hated and discriminated against to anywhere near the extent African-Americans have, it seemed much more likely that we'd see a Jewish American President before an African-American President than vise versa. That we ended up with an African-American President before a Jewish American President is actually a bit of a surprise.

So I'd argue the question is, are African Britons discriminated against as much as South Asian Britons? Are they as hated or as oppressed? The group that is less oppressed, to me, seems more likely to come to high office first, irrelevant of population size.

Well one could argue that at the moment its the South Asians who might be being discriminated against more, in particular the Muslim ones.

Personally I don't think a black man was the least likely choice of president, frankly I'll be more shocked and amazed when America elects an openly athiest or agnostic President. Or a gay one!

Anyway, watched this again last night and thought it was better on second viewing- still a bit plot holey but perhaps not as bad as I'd originally thought.

The voting booths don't explain how come people don't notice the Queen's been around forever though, the Doctor clearly says that the mind wipe machine only erases about 20 minutes of memory (just long enough for the video.) People know they've seen the video, know they've chosen to forget as well. It might have become an instrument of social control, but I imagine it started out with nobler intentions.

Shame there wasn't more time to go into the nature of the winders and the Smilers more. Definitely a story that could have done with more time to breathe, but still good.

 

[Venardhi]

Personally I don't think a black man was the least likely choice of president, frankly I'll be more shocked and amazed when America elects an openly athiest or agnostic President. Or a gay one!

I remember being the only one in my class (4th grade I think) who thought it more likely to see a black president in my lifetime than a woman or a non-christian. Even now I think we're more likely to see a Hispanic than a woman win the presidency. The various Asians (middle-east through far-east) are the only major racial/cultural groups that I think less likely, but only for the next 25 years or so and in large part due to religion. Atheists wont stand a chance for considerably longer.

 

[Starkers]

^ Yeah, and Hollywood had been prepping the American people for the idea of a black president for so long people probably thought they were voting for Morgan Freeman. I can see a woman President, my only worry is that it'd be Sarah Palin!

 

[Australis]

I also don't get why Liz10's options were "Forget" and "Abdicate."

Well, what other choices were there? "Do something"?

I know what you mean, but I'm shot if I can think of anything else they could have had.

Maybe there could have been a "Freedom" button that freed the creature without her having to abdicate. I guess they became so bound up in doing things one way and one way only, as the secret police wanted, that other options faded away. But that's just me, I'm really not sure.

 

[Starkers]

Well it seemed for abdicate it should have read "Condemn yourself and your people to cold and certain death" ?

 

[Checkmate]

I also don't get why Liz10's options were "Forget" and "Abdicate."

Well, what other choices were there? "Do something"?

I know what you mean, but I'm shot if I can think of anything else they could have had.

I know, but anything would make as much sense as "Abdicate." How does "give up your throne" translate to anything that would happen by pressing it? Even a "Release" or even "Murder" label would make more sense.

Just kinda odd all around. Even moreso since, by pressing it (even if it was really Amy who did it), she's now no longer the queen. So...

 

[Pseudo]

I also don't get why Liz10's options were "Forget" and "Abdicate."

Well, what other choices were there? "Do something"?

I know what you mean, but I'm shot if I can think of anything else they could have had.

I know, but anything would make as much sense as "Abdicate." How does "give up your throne" translate to anything that would happen by pressing it? Even a "Release" or even "Murder" label would make more sense.

Just kinda odd all around. Even moreso since, by pressing it (even if it was really Amy who did it), she's now no longer the queen. So...

The way I see it is why couldn't she have chosen to remember but not protest the situation. Why did she not have the choice to live with the knowledge that their lives were sustained at the expense of another?

The price of power is often having to choose the least bad option and by removing the memory of that decision do you not remove the lessons that can be learned from it?

Or perhaps that was the point. If Liz had to live with that knowledge it might gnaw at her conscience and eventually either release the Whale or kill herself.

As George Santayana said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Maybe the only way that they could continue to imprison the Whale in perpetual torture was by forgetting the past and thus repeating it.

Anyway, back to your question of how does Abdicate translate in to the consequences of pressing that button.

The assumption they made was that by releasing the Whale the country would be destroyed. So yes, she would be abdicating if it were to be pressed. She'd also be taking everyone else with her. She'd be making the choice for everyone to abdicate from life.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Was away in Whitby at the weekend, so had to catch yesterday's BBC3 repeat.
That was fun again - a nice quick romp, and the Doctor and Amy are personable heroes.

Is there going to be a "Scottish" Easter Egg gag every week? The speech about the 29th century folks leaving Earth was the only bit that felt Tennant-lite this week. Magpie Electricals! You have the right to know the truth? Can't really be the UK then, which is notoriously secrecy-based. "Artoo, shut down all the garbage mashers in the-" oh, no wait, it's "this is no cave". I'd do Sophie Okonedo, and figured who she'd be pretty much immediately. The Demon Headmaster only had about two lines, what was up with that? Oh, they're torturing a spaceborne lifeform for propulsion, right so we've seen Voyager's "Equinox" as well as the first two Star Wars movies...

Speaking of Star Trek, though, it surprises me that the Doctor thought he only had three choices about the space whale: Release it, lobotomise it, let it be tortured. Cos, and I know some DW types look down on Trek as be pro-authoritarian and so on, but how the hell did the Doc (remember this is the guy who gave Erato a blowjob just in case he wasn't really an astrologer-eating monster, talks to cows, etc) not continue on (as I did) to option 4, communicate with it and ask its opinion. Obviously Moffat thought of it because he has Amy come to this conclusion when she sees it communicate with the kids, but it's *very* odd that the Doctor doesn't think of it.

It's also odd that there were lots of holes and unexplained bits left- what were the Smilers, then? Were all the Winders also Smilers? Still, it was all good fun, some good gags, and better direction than last week. (The theme music has been tweaked - you could hear the underbeat from the start this time - but it's still shit.)

When Matt Smith does his sort of stiff mannerisms he reminds me of somebody but I can't think who. Overall he still comes over as kind of Davison-ish but he's already got his own tone too. There was a disturbing moment when we have a view over his shoulder and the hair and jawline looking Adric, but other than that... Amy was cool too- and bonus wet T-shirt look.

Guest-cast-wise it's amazing that they've found, for the second episode in a row, a proper child actress - I mean one who actually properly acts. Terence Hardiman was hideously underused, but Sophie Okonedo was great. Wish we had more of her. Like, keep her as a companion. On a side note, I can't help noticing that there's a distinct lack of fan comments that "oh, having the black woman be the one who started torturing the space whale, and the black guy turn into a monstrous Smiler proves that the writer is an Evil Racist Misogynist (TM)" - cos while that is indeed a load of bollocks, you just *know* that's what people would be saying if RTD's name was in the credits, even though it would still have been a load of bollocks. It's just interesting to see the difference in attitudes by fandom (well, at least on LJ) to the two showrunners...

Anyhow, the crack! Churchill and Daleks! What a trailer...

So, overall, another good one, 8/10

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Checkmate is right about Moffatt's approach to Amy Pond - unlike Rose or Martha or Donna, Amy's been living with her initial encounter with the Doctor and its effects on her ideas and view of the word, most of her life.

One of the negative aspects of that kind of thing, in story terms, could be eventual disillusionment of some sort - it'll be interesting to see whether Moffatt goes in that direction or not.

 

[Starkers]

But surely she's already had some disillusionment? I mean he said he'd be five minutes and was gone for 12 years, then he buggered off for another 2 years without warning. Plus she'll have seen how quickly he can turn on her now.

I dunno, if he is travelling with her because of the crack in the universe I can imagine she won't be too happy when she finally realises this...

 

[Mr Awe]

Gave this what would've been an Above Average, in a regular grading system. Very nearly an excellent. I loved the premise of this episode, the setting, etc. It really worked to create a good atmosphere. The sets didn't quite pull off a city in space feel but what can you do with budget constraints? The revelation about the Queen was good and so was the truth behind the decision to Protest or Forget. The Doctor added a lot to the story but so did Amy. She figured it out.

Only marks down were because it seemed too rushed and, relatedly, they were helped a bit much along the way.

Mr Awe

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Are these episodes shorter than the first few seasons?

This was a better "first time adventure" episode than the previous nuWho companions got, because it was more emotionally affecting as a story and dug into the relationship between the Doctor and the companion more than the previous ones - the latter, again, being largely a function of Amy already having a fairly long-term attachment to the Doctor at the opening.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Checkmate is right about Moffatt's approach to Amy Pond - unlike Rose or Martha or Donna, Amy's been living with her initial encounter with the Doctor and its effects on her ideas and view of the word, most of her life.

One of the negative aspects of that kind of thing, in story terms, could be eventual disillusionment of some sort - it'll be interesting to see whether Moffatt goes in that direction or not.

Nobody's saying whether she'll be in the Xmas special or next season, and the Radio Times teasers for the season had a quote for, I think episode 10, that suggests he will go in that direction, even if only temporarily.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Are these episodes shorter than the first few seasons?

This was a better "first time adventure" episode than the previous nuWho companions got, because it was more emotionally affecting as a story and dug into the relationship between the Doctor and the companion more than the previous ones - the latter, again, being largely a function of Amy already having a fairly long-term attachment to the Doctor at the opening.

No, in fact the first episode was 20 minutes LONGER than the norm. That's probably what made this one feel short. It was actually, as far as I can tell, right on the money for length compared to Series 1 through 4.

 

[Gepard]

It was actually, as far as I can tell, right on the money for length compared to Series 1 through 4.

It was 41 minutes long while most of Seasons 1 -4 were about 45, IIRC. So it was a few minutes short of "normal."

 

[Starkers]

Odd really cos if anything the episode needed some fleshing out!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It was actually, as far as I can tell, right on the money for length compared to Series 1 through 4.

It was 41 minutes long while most of Seasons 1 -4 were about 45, IIRC. So it was a few minutes short of "normal."

I suspected as much - two or three minutes makes a big difference in this kind of thing.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

Just as I was thinking we need a serial of old to do this justice, so that the Doctor could mull over his choice like he did on Skaro in the Dalek mutant breeding chamber, I realised RTD had done that for NuWho already.

The episode Dalek felt a lot weightier and the decisions the characters made more important. The choice between whale and people just came across like one of those flash scenes some video games have where you have to choose terribly quickly what you want to do with a click of a button.

So... average, distinctly so.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Was it that short? Funny, I thought it was 45 minutes.