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Should they bring back Janeway?

Bring back Janeway?

  • Bring her back

    Votes: 151 57.2%
  • Keep her dead

    Votes: 113 42.8%

  • Total voters
    264
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Why don't you have them kill Picard or Sisko and then only allow their fans flashback stories.

<shrug> Ok, sure. I'd have been fine if Sisko never actually came back in Unity, and I've been happy with the very sparing way they've used him so far. I wouldn't mind seeing Picard die/retire either.

Actually, in Picard's case I might, but for a very particular reason - not because of Picard, but Crusher, who's already lost one husband and had to raise a child pretty much on her own. So I'd rather see them both retire to Earth.

I don't agree. If you introduce a massive change in a story and then just reset it rather than facing its consequences, that's a copout and it cheapens the whole storytelling process. This attitude that any death can be reversed at any time is far too pervasive in SF, fantasy, and comics these days, and acted on far too often. Even if it's true that a single such story here and there might be doable in a way that minimizes the cheapness of it, it's just been done far too often by now. It's already too cheap and hackneyed a plot device to be redeemable.

Well, there's ways to bring somebody back without doing an actual reset. Looking at comics, there's a difference between a Green Lantern: Rebirth and a Flash: Rebirth. And the return of Colossus was handled very well, IMO (although I hear they've done little useful with him sense Whedon went off the book). And Bucky Barnes/Winter Soldier might be the best example there is of a character going from "sacrosanct cannot-be-resurrected" to "well-done resurrection."

Agreed. Plenty of examples of that.

The story of the "Death of the Phoenix" was such a groundbreaker in comics, and bringing her back, especially the cheap, contrived way they did, put a dent in a comics classic.

Now we see "deaths" as marketing tools (Superman, Batman, Captain America), when we KNOW there is NO intention to leave them dead.

I call foul.

Well, like I said above, I think there's a difference and a death can be well-done. Captain America's, for example, which led to Bucky becoming Cap. And Batman's death has led to Dick taking up the cowl - apparently for at least another two years (and it's been, what, one so far?).

A flash back is only that and the end is still a dead Janeway, and that is unacceptable.

Everything dies.
 
Let's make everybody happy. We'll have a story where Robau and Kirk and Data and Janeway are all brought back to life to fight a resurrected Khan and Dukat and Borg Queen and Nero to finish the Temporal Cold War and reunite the original timeline and the new movie timeline and save both Vulcan and Romulus. And in a battle of great cosmic significance, the only person who has to die is, I dunno, some Suliban guy or something. So everybody except somebody nobody actually cares about lives happily ever after.

You would kill off Some Suliban Guy? Despite the great potential in the character? The ambiguity of his identity, the uncertainty as to his wider role in galactic events, the mystery of his loyalties and ambitions? The existential, philosophical significance of the character's status as just "some guy"? The ability to tell fresh new stories unreliant on tired old named characters and instead push back the boundaries of Suliban-related tie-in fiction?
 
Well, like I said above, I think there's a difference and a death can be well-done. Captain America's, for example, which led to Bucky becoming Cap. And Batman's death has led to Dick taking up the cowl - apparently for at least another two years (and it's been, what, one so far?).

Yes, and those are good stories. But if you KNOW the previous character is returning and the status quo is pretty much going to be reset...then all that kinda was for nothing.

It takes something that should be profound and turns it into a gimmick.

HE'S DEAD! WOE! Oh, wait, not really, everyone can come back now.

That's just cheap.
 
Possibilities for HER. There happen to be about a dozen other characters in that series, and I like their possibilities without her just fine. Better, in fact.

But the "Militant Janeway Fans" (Brit's own characterization) don't care about the other characters. For whatever reason, they're not Voyager fans, they're Kathryn Janeway fans. So their perspective on Voyager fiction is never going to be the same as that of people who see Voyager as what it is, an ensemble series, rather than merely a vehicle for Kathryn Janeway.


Why don't you have them kill Picard or Sisko and then only allow their fans flashback stories.

If there were good stories to be told about the aftermath of their deaths and the changed circumstances and relationships of the other characters, indeed, why not? And again, I think the majority of Trek fans are fans of the shows or the franchise overall, not tunnel-vision fixated on only one character. No Trek series has ever been a star vehicle for only one performer, and all the 24th-century series were pretty much equal ensembles.



Well, there's ways to bring somebody back without doing an actual reset. Looking at comics, there's a difference between a Green Lantern: Rebirth and a Flash: Rebirth. And the return of Colossus was handled very well, IMO (although I hear they've done little useful with him sense Whedon went off the book). And Bucky Barnes/Winter Soldier might be the best example there is of a character going from "sacrosanct cannot-be-resurrected" to "well-done resurrection."

But even if the individual stories are well-done, they're still symptoms of an unfortunate syndrome in the comics industry as a whole. Nothing is moving forward anymore. Every story these days is about nostalgia and returning to the status quo that the creators grew up with. Comics are trapped in a loop, enslaved to their own past. When was the last time a major new superhero came along and became a success? When was the last time an established character got to go through any real growth rather than just the illusion of change that got reset a few years later? Even good changes that were made in years past, like Peter Parker growing up and getting married, have been cast aside in favor of nostalgia. The only new ideas we get are gimmicks like turning the Green Lantern Corps into the Care Bears, with lots of multicolored promotional rings and t-shirts. And even that storyline involved bringing back a lot of dead characters -- including characters who were killed solely so that they could be brought back as zombies and then resurrected at the end. (And sure, they say that now death is permanent in the DC Universe again, but how long is that going to stick? And will it bring about any other kinds of real, lasting change, in a creative climate that's so obsessed with reliving past glories?)

Don't get me wrong -- there's value in retelling old stories. This week's Batman: The Brave and the Bold episode, in which Paul Dini retold the original story of Batman's origin and his discovery of his parents' killer, was a superb example. But in the case of an ongoing series or companywide continuity, something that's nominally about characters actually moving forward continuously in time, there should be actual forward movement. Revisiting the past should be saved for adaptations, alternate realities, and so forth. Nostalgia has its place, but it shouldn't take the place of progress.
 
^The Shatnerverse is a vehicle for Kirk over everyone else. Just saying.

The phrase "Militant Janeway Fans" is just...weird.
 
These days the arguments are over whether Janeway should be alive or dead, but there used to be equally obsessive and rabid arguments over whether she should be paired off with Chakotay or not.

Not to mention that many of the Janeway fans claiming to have blackballed Kirsten Beyer's novels weren't buying Pocket's VOY novels for years. Forgive me if I'm misremembering, but weren't some of them proudly praising their own free fanfic instead, a source of VOY stories which gave them total control over what they did to the VOY crew.

If Janeway was to return from the dead in the official tie-in novels, I really doubt that Brit and friends would suddenly take a renewed interest in commercial VOY novels.
 
[No Trek series has ever been a star vehicle for only one performer"

That's not exactly accurate. Classic Trek wasn't an ensemble show by any means. There's a reason that only Shatner and Nimoy (and later De Kelley) were in the main credits. They were the stars. The other cast members were day players cast on an episode by episode basis. That's why they could get away with not playing Uhura, Chekov, Sulu or Scotty in every ep. They weren't contracted for the entire series. They were brought back to give the crew continuity... Except for Nichelle Nichols who Roddenberry was porking. It's safe to say that Kirk, Spock and McCoy were Star Trek.

I also have to say that Kirk's resurrection in The Return was far more emotional, exciting and memorable to me than his empty death in Generations was.

While I don't like Janeway and I'm happy she's dead I do feel for her fans and hope that one day they can have their captain back. The way I see it the current editors and writers for licensed Trek will move on one day and some other editor or writer probably will bring back Janeway sometime in the future so all this griping is probably for nothing.
 
Don't get me wrong -- there's value in retelling old stories. This week's Batman: The Brave and the Bold episode, in which Paul Dini retold the original story of Batman's origin and his discovery of his parents' killer, was a superb example. But in the case of an ongoing series or companywide continuity, something that's nominally about characters actually moving forward continuously in time, there should be actual forward movement. Revisiting the past should be saved for adaptations, alternate realities, and so forth. Nostalgia has its place, but it shouldn't take the place of progress.

I personally don't understand this attitude. In Star Trek to a large extend but ESPECIALLY in comic books, which have been written and published for decades -- if we take this principle of "progress" vs "nostalgia" to its fullest extent, then Batman would have needed to retire and/or be a senior citizen for decades now. Not much fun.

Of course, we've been able to play with "old Batman" in Dark Knight returns and other fun things while still getting to have him month after month to be the Dark Knight Detective (I assume, I haven't read Batman for almost 20 years!), or whatever -- and none of that is lessened by a lack of "progress". Not to be downer, but these are comic books (and TV-show-fiction) -- not high art or even a movie or limited-run TV show -- there is only so much room for change without doing violence to the concept, and only so much room for deviation from formula, and this is not a slight at all -- this is what I come back for time after time -- to explore strange new worlds, etc. When I want something else I read original fiction.

I have no problem with character arcs (or things like changing ships/crews to some extent, Picard/Sisko/Riker having babies, etc) being the exception even in the extremely well-written and nominally "progressive" Pocket Books universe. As unrealistic as it might be to have people go through so many consecutive adventures and not grow old and die, I am not bothered! I can play along because of the joy these adventures provide. I definitely want to see Janeway, Picard, Sisko, etc experience new things and not just re-watch the shows (though I do that, too!) but progress to my mind shouldn't come at the expense of what enamored me to the shows in the first place, and that includes the main characters. This isn't nostalgia, though - its the artistic equivalent to comfort food - sure it might be pizza again but WOW is that some good pizza! ;)
 
but progress to my mind shouldn't come at the expense of what enamored me to the shows in the first place, and that includes the main characters. This isn't nostalgia, though - its the artistic equivalent to comfort food

However, do we really want to know that all the main characters of the Star Trek franchise will lead totally unrealistic, charmed lives *and cannot be killed permanently* no matter what happens?
 
but progress to my mind shouldn't come at the expense of what enamored me to the shows in the first place, and that includes the main characters. This isn't nostalgia, though - its the artistic equivalent to comfort food

However, do we really want to know that all the main characters of the Star Trek franchise will lead totally unrealistic, charmed lives *and cannot be killed permanently* no matter what happens?

No. Just Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Nobody else matters. :D
 
That's not exactly accurate. Classic Trek wasn't an ensemble show by any means.

Which is precisely why CLB said, "No Trek series has ever been a star vehicle for only one performer."

Indeed. No matter how much Shatner wanted TOS to be a star vehicle for him, Spock ended up being more popular with fans and the network and the pressure was to make him the star. So the compromise was to feature them both equally, with McCoy running a close third due to his links to both characters.
 
but progress to my mind shouldn't come at the expense of what enamored me to the shows in the first place, and that includes the main characters. This isn't nostalgia, though - its the artistic equivalent to comfort food

However, do we really want to know that all the main characters of the Star Trek franchise will lead totally unrealistic, charmed lives *and cannot be killed permanently* no matter what happens?

No. Just Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Nobody else matters. :D

Haha! yeah, okay - I'm good with that!

But seriously, I wasn't put off by the fact that any week on TNG when the Enterprise was in "mortal danger" I knew somehow they'd get out of it -- the fun was in seeing how they'd get out of it! And it did require a bit of suspension of disbelief on my part, which I was happy to provide!

I could have looked at any episode and spoiled the fun going "fake! there's no way a space ship can go faster than light!" or when Riker said "Fire!" and then it said "To Be Continued..." I could have said "oh big deal, Picard can't die!" or whatever, but where's the fun in that? To me the characters that never die is just part of the deal, and beside the point in terms of storytelling/adventure.

That and I want that Data/Robau/Suliban story!
 
That's not exactly accurate. Classic Trek wasn't an ensemble show by any means.

Which is precisely why CLB said, "No Trek series has ever been a star vehicle for only one performer."

Indeed. No matter how much Shatner wanted TOS to be a star vehicle for him, Spock ended up being more popular with fans and the network and the pressure was to make him the star. So the compromise was to feature them both equally, with McCoy running a close third due to his links to both characters.

Yeah. My bad. Where's my lollypop? :p
 
when Riker said "Fire!" and then it said "To Be Continued..." I could have said "oh big deal, Picard can't die!" or whatever, but where's the fun in that? To me the characters that never die is just part of the deal, and besides the point in terms of storytelling/adventure!

The real fun was that Patrick Stewart was in a contract renegotiation! Had his agent decided otherwise, Riker and Shelby would have earned sudden promotions come the next season!
 
but progress to my mind shouldn't come at the expense of what enamored me to the shows in the first place, and that includes the main characters. This isn't nostalgia, though - its the artistic equivalent to comfort food

However, do we really want to know that all the main characters of the Star Trek franchise will lead totally unrealistic, charmed lives *and cannot be killed permanently* no matter what happens?

No. Just Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Nobody else matters. :D

Except in the Prime Universe Kirk died in 2371 and Spock will go MIA and presumed dead in 2387 making McCoy the only one left assuming he hasn't died of old age by that point :(
 
However, do we really want to know that all the main characters of the Star Trek franchise will lead totally unrealistic, charmed lives *and cannot be killed permanently* no matter what happens?

No. Just Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Nobody else matters. :D

Except in the Prime Universe Kirk died in 2371 and Spock will go MIA and presumed dead in 2387 making McCoy the only one left assuming he hasn't died of old age by that point :(

I assure you that Kirk is presumed dead. He was really placed in stasis by Gary Seven and recruited as an agent for his organization! His next mission is to cross over to the nuTrek Universe and recruit Spock! It's true! It's all true I tells ya! I fired it out me cannon while I was on the crapper! :D :D :D
 
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