Janeway's Convient Morals

[AuntKate]

There is a prejudice against Janeway on this board, and I think most regular posters will concede that. As an example, your insistence that a site must be "Janeway only" to qualify as a sign of her popularity is just the sort of "angle" that posters take to discredit her popularity. The very title of this thread is basically inflammatory. Most Janeway fans have long since left this board because of it; just a few of us die-hards hang on, mainly to try to remind people that there are others out there who like Voyager and Janeway best of all.

Those who dislike her routinely refer to Tuvix or to her pact with the Borg or to many other hard decisions she made along the way as evidence of her "convient" morals. That other Trek captains made decisions just as controversial is never taken into account. For example, what about Sisko's poisoning of a Maquis camp/planet? What about Archer's threat to torture and kill a prisoner for information? All captains make tough decisions, many of them controversial. It isn't fair to say that Janeway is any worse than the others.

Voyager (and Janeway) are by far the most popular ST fanfic category on FFN. That there are so many Voyager centric sites online nine years after the last new episode aired says a lot IMHO. Mulgrew's appearances at cons are consistently standing room only. Janeway is well liked by many, many Star Trek fans, male and female.

Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Zameaze]

There is a prejudice against Janeway on this board, and I think most regular posters will concede that. As an example, your insistence that a site must be "Janeway only" to qualify as a sign of her popularity is just the sort of "angle" that posters take to discredit her popularity.

Whoa there hoss! All I did was question kimc's claim that there are a large number of sites dedicated to Captain Janeway.

The very title of this thread is basically inflammatory.

You do realize that this is a fictional character we're talking about, and that this is a discussion board open to all opinions?

Those who dislike her routinely refer to Tuvix or to her pact with the Borg or to many other hard decisions she made along the way as evidence of her "convient" morals.

Yes, murdering Tuvix completely destroyed any chance for some of us to look at Janeway as a moral character.

 

[SpyOne]

http://hubpages.com/hub/Five_Moral_Dillemas_in_Star_Trek

That is a remarkably good article. I like how he did one for each series. Deserves a thread of its own.

 

[Withers]

There is a prejudice against Janeway on this board, and I think most regular posters will concede that.

Granted, I've been here less than a full month (I think?) and probably don't have recall of the various posters you do- I still think declaring there's a "Janeway prejudice" on this board is going overboard. I'm as vociferous a critic of Voyager as anybody I've read from recently and I didn't have anything against Janeway. That's not to say that there weren't plenty of people who did... just that the most active critic of the show at the moment isn't one of them.

The only place I know of on this board where there's hate spewed at Voyager or her Captain in the way implied is in the fantasy realm of Anwar's posts where the "Hatedome" lives long and prospers.

-Withers-​

 

[AuntKate]

There is a prejudice against Janeway on this board, and I think most regular posters will concede that. As an example, your insistence that a site must be "Janeway only" to qualify as a sign of her popularity is just the sort of "angle" that posters take to discredit her popularity.

Whoa there hoss! All I did was question kimc's claim that there are a large number of sites dedicated to Captain Janeway.

And she, and others, illustrated a long list of sites that dedicated to Janeway. The fact that they might also include other characters on the show is not sufficient reason to disregard or discount them--that's all I'm saying.

The very title of this thread is basically inflammatory.

You do realize that this is a fictional character we're talking about, and that this is a discussion board open to all opinions?

Of course I know she's fictional. My point was that the title tipped us off that the poster's opinion of Janeway was pretty slanted against her--assuming that he/she meant "convenient" morals. If he/she intended to start a fair, unbiased discussion, that title wasn't a good way to start.

Those who dislike her routinely refer to Tuvix or to her pact with the Borg or to many other hard decisions she made along the way as evidence of her "convient" morals.

Yes, murdering Tuvix completely destroyed any chance for some of us to look at Janeway as a moral character.

And we can also say that Sisko is not a moral character because he poisoned the Maquis camp/planet, nor is Archer a moral for his torturing of a prisoner. What is good for Janeway applies to these captains, too. They all had moral lapses. I think Sisko should be charged for his crimes that day, and Archer, too. Let's just condemn them all!

 

[Brit]

The very title of this thread is basically inflammatory.

You do realize that this is a fictional character we're talking about, and that this is a discussion board open to all opinions?

Usually the last ditch argument from someone who is on the losing end of the argument.

I don't particularly care for the Sims players that deliberately murder their less attractive characters either, opinions even about fictional characters are colored with an individual's attitudes and prejudice. Just because a character is fictional doesn't mean your attitude is also fictional.

Those who dislike her routinely refer to Tuvix or to her pact with the Borg or to many other hard decisions she made along the way as evidence of her "convient" morals.

Yes, murdering Tuvix completely destroyed any chance for some of us to look at Janeway as a moral character.

But you are not all of us, nor is your constant harping on this point going to win everyone to your side, and neither is mine. But the kindly and encompassing attitude should be to consider others on the board before you post something like "Janeway's Convenient Morals," it really makes you all look bad and it makes the board look like a bunch of Janeway bashers. This is a very common opinion among Janeway fans.

Oh and by the way, I am not preaching to you, but to those that read this, you are not going to change your mind but perhaps I can change someone else's. That is the real reason I am here.

Brit

 

[Zameaze]

And we can also say that Sisko is not a moral character because he poisoned the Maquis camp/planet, nor is Archer a moral for his torturing of a prisoner. What is good for Janeway applies to these captains, too. They all had moral lapses. I think Sisko should be charged for his crimes that day, and Archer, too. Let's just condemn them all!

Yes, you can say what you want about all the male captains and I will not take it personally, nor will I try to bully you into taking my point of view. I am not living vicariously through them.

Newsflash: The Janeway character was not Miss "Universe" nor was she a very good captain.

 

[Zameaze]

...you are not going to change your mind but perhaps I can change someone else's. That is the real reason I am here.
Brit

Oh no, a crusade!

(Help, all of the Janeway avatars are attacking!)

 

[blackzoid]

There is a prejudice against Janeway on this board, and I think most regular posters will concede that. As an example, your insistence that a site must be "Janeway only" to qualify as a sign of her popularity is just the sort of "angle" that posters take to discredit her popularity.

Whoa there hoss! All I did was question kimc's claim that there are a large number of sites dedicated to Captain Janeway.

And she, and others, illustrated a long list of sites that dedicated to Janeway. The fact that they might also include other characters on the show is not sufficient reason to disregard or discount them--that's all I'm saying.



Of course I know she's fictional. My point was that the title tipped us off that the poster's opinion of Janeway was pretty slanted against her--assuming that he/she meant "convenient" morals. If he/she intended to start a fair, unbiased discussion, that title wasn't a good way to start.

Those who dislike her routinely refer to Tuvix or to her pact with the Borg or to many other hard decisions she made along the way as evidence of her "convient" morals.

Yes, murdering Tuvix completely destroyed any chance for some of us to look at Janeway as a moral character.

And we can also say that Sisko is not a moral character because he poisoned the Maquis camp/planet, nor is Archer a moral for his torturing of a prisoner. What is good for Janeway applies to these captains, too. They all had moral lapses. I think Sisko should be charged for his crimes that day, and Archer, too. Let's just condemn them all!

"And we can also say that Sisko is not a moral character because he poisoned the Maquis camp/planet, nor is Archer a moral for his torturing of a prisoner. What is good for Janeway applies to these captains, too. They all had moral lapses. I think Sisko should be charged for his crimes that day, and Archer, too. Let's just condemn them all"

And the problem with condemning them for those situations is?

Archer did torture a prisioner (and go pirating as well in Damage) for what he considered the good of Earth. Result: A flawed human being.
Sisko did poison a camp/planet (with many casualities) for reasons based partly on his pride and ego at being hoodwinked. Result: A flawed human being.
Janeway did murder a sentient being partly based on emotional reasons to the loss of her friends. Result: A flawed human being.

I don't see what the problem here is, no-one in Star Trek is perfect. No one is a perfect moral creature. Neither Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway or Archer.

 

[Anwar]

And the problem with condemning them for those situations is?

That everyone points to Janeway's actions as horrific, when they aren't any different than any of the bad stuff Sisko and the others did. It's near-double standard.

 

[jaegermistress]

*Yawn* what a dramatic thread. Flames and a misspelled thread title.

Janeway was chill. Of course her morals were "convenient." It's called writing for a show that has to stay on for 7 seasons. She's not the best Starfleet captain but she's not the worst.

 

[Akiraprise]

...you are not going to change your mind but perhaps I can change someone else's. That is the real reason I am here.
Brit

Oh no, a crusade!

(Help, all of the Janeway avatars are attacking!)

Oh, knock it off.
You asked to see some Janeway fan sites. A substantial list was provided.

I'm not even sure what we're supposed to be discussing here. Like exodus pretty much said in the second post, every Captain has convenient morals that serve the shows plot at some point.

 

[Zameaze]

Flames and a misspelled thread title.

Flames? Hardly. Just an unpopular opinion. Really, I'm amazed at how some people are so invested in this fictional character that they can't even discuss a contrary point of view without getting personal.

Misspelled thread? Yeah, you got me. Typed too fast.

Oh, knock it off.

Knock what off exactly? Having an opinion on a discussion board that does not agree with everyone else's?

You asked to see some Janeway fan sites. A substantial list was provided.

That is not what this thread is supposed to be about. I just questioned that there are a large number of websites dedicated to Captain Janeway as another poster stated. I still haven't seen such a list, but as I said previously, I won't argue with what a person feels are such sites.

Now, I'm tired of defending myself for not agreeing that the Janeway character is a moral person. You can tell the fictional characters to "knock it off" all you want, but please refrain from being rude to me as I have not been rude to any of you.

Now, do you have anything to back up you opinion that Janeway either is a moral character or is not a moral character?

 

[exodus]

There is a prejudice against Janeway on this board, and I think most regular posters will concede that. As an example, your insistence that a site must be "Janeway only" to qualify as a sign of her popularity is just the sort of "angle" that posters take to discredit her popularity. The very title of this thread is basically inflammatory. Most Janeway fans have long since left this board because of it; just a few of us die-hards hang on, mainly to try to remind people that there are others out there who like Voyager and Janeway best of all.

I don't see how Janeway fans are being run off this board when the MOD of the Voyager forum itself is a self admitted J/C'er.

 

[AuntKate]

I can't speak for KimC. I applaud her intestinal fortitude for being the mod of a forum that attracts people who don't like the series or its characters.

As for convenient morals, I think we all have times when we compromise our beliefs, especially if there are lives at stake. All the captains do it at one time or another, from Kirk on down. But do we go to the DS9 forum and start a thread on "Sisko's Convenient Morals"? Or to the Ent forum and start one on Ashers'? If we did so, would their fans react to such allegations differently than Voyager fans have to this thread? I'm guessing their reaction would be similar to what we see here--especially those with Sisko or Archer avatars.

As for Janeway, a double standard exists, whether you are willing to admit it or not. And where there is injustice, there am I!

 

[Withers]

I'm going to throw something out on the stoop and see if the cat licks it up;

I think there are as many hardcore Captain Janeway fans as there are of any other Captain except maybe Kirk (by virtue of being an icon- everybody knows how Captain Kirk is... that's just not true of the others.) I don't know where this "Voyager is being crucified" bit comes from really as if any of the series was torpedoed hard and heavy, repeatedly, and continually it was TNG followed then by Enterprise and then Voyager. There plenty of Janeway/Voyager fans. It isn't you vs. the rest of the fandom. So... you know, enough with the persecution complex. After so long its kind of played out.

Secondly, there's no "double standard" at work here. A person can dislike Captain Janeway for having less than desirable morals and still like Captain Sisko. Liking or disliking a Captain is the ultimate factor in deciding whether or not to excuse amoral behavior. I like Sisko so I'm going to forgive him. I didn't like Janeway so I'm not going to be as forgiving. It happens all over the place here. It ultimately comes down to what you like whether or not you'll forgive its shortcomings.

Finally, I want to throw this out-

Geocities closed down not that long ago (it was like...last summer I think.) "Back in the day," if you wanted to create a fansite you did it on either Geocities or Angelfire (no idea whether that's around anymore). I guarantee a mass ton of Janeway fansites were washed away when that finally closed down. Just food for thought when talking about how Janeway sites are or are not around.

-Withers-​

 

[SpyOne]

I do think Janeway might be more harshly criticized than other Starfleet Captains, and I think I have a reason why: a lack of oversight.

We look as Sisko in For The Uniform, and we wonder if he was justified in taking such extreme measures, but then we realize that Starfleet Command received a full report on that incident. They apparently either thought it was justified, or at least didn't think is was too big a deal, because he wasn't relieved of command or demoted or anything. If there is a black mark on his record because of it, it is never mentioned on screen.
Janeway, however, has had no contact with her superiors, which leaves people free to assume that if they knew what she had done, they would disapprove.
Even after they make contact with Starfleet, the amount of information they exchange is limited, and one might assume that anything unlikely to get them home or to build morale might be given a low priority. Again, there is room to believe that the relevant logs haven't yet gotten to Starfleet.


My problem with Janeway was really the inconsistent writing. At the Internet Movie Database, the entry for Kate Mulgrew includes this under "trivia":

Her character on "Star Trek: Voyager" (1995), Captain Kathryn Janeway, is regarded by fans as having Bipolar disorder because of her erratic actions. Ms. Mulgrew said she blames the writers.

I remember a reviewer who referred to Janeway as a tag-team character; Momma Janeway and Action Kate.

It also bothered me that Janeway was several years younger than Mulgrew. It seemed to me to have been done to stroke Mulgrew's ego ("you're still young and beautiful"). I have no evidence to support that, it just seemed that way to me. I have recently figured out that Johnathen Frakes was about 5 years older than Riker, and since Chakotay and Riker were about the same age, and Robert Beltran and John Frakes are about the same age, .... It still bothers me, because on the one hand it seems like Janeway actually got younger as the show went on, and also because they made her young enough that her first command becomes implausible.
See, Janeway was in High School in 2354 (Future's End Part 1). She might have been a senior, or a freshman, but that pretty well nails her birthdate at somewhere from 2336 to 2340. I could go on and narrow it further, but:
Janeway completed her first Starship Command assignment in 2365. Riker was offered his first Starship Command in 2364, and Riker was on a meteoric rise to command and was at least 1 year older than Janeway.
I'm tempted to blame that kind of thing on the fact that the series bible was written with an actress 13 years older in the role of Janeway, but that little fact wasn't dropped on us until Season Four (Revulsion), so it isn't like they didn't have time to fix it.

Sorry, got ranty. I just meant to say that I, too, blame the writers. I like Kate Mulgrew just fine. I try not to blame anyone on Voyager for what their character was like.

 

[kimc]

I don't see how Janeway fans are being run off this board when the MOD of the Voyager forum itself is a self admitted J/C'er.

Hi, my name is kimc and I'm a J/C'er. I also kick kittens in my spare time and once I set my pomeranians on the mail carrier. That was really an accident though since I was trying to train them to fetch my slippers and the mail carrier likes REALLY comfy shoes...

As much as I hate to admit it I'm not THE mod. Please don't ignore akiraprise - he's a nice guy.

I can't speak for KimC. I applaud her intestinal fortitude for being the mod of a forum that attracts people who don't like the series or its characters.

Time for a digestion joke then? Maybe not...

As for Janeway, a double standard exists, whether you are willing to admit it or not. And where there is injustice, there am I!

Back to topic I agree (surprise!) that a double standard exists but then they exist everywhere and for many reasons - gender, race, socio-economic status, etc. I wish I had an answer on how to combat them though.

 

[exodus]

I don't see how Janeway fans are being run off this board when the MOD of the Voyager forum itself is a self admitted J/C'er.

Hi, my name is kimc and I'm a J/C'er. I also kick kittens in my spare time and once I set my pomeranians on the mail carrier. That was really an accident though since I was trying to train them to fetch my slippers and the mail carrier likes REALLY comfy shoes...

As much as I hate to admit it I'm not THE mod. Please don't ignore akiraprise - he's a nice guy.

While this is true, I'm pretty sure the J/C and Janeway love in this forum has grown due to your influence.

 

[Zameaze]

I don't see how Janeway fans are being run off this board when the MOD of the Voyager forum itself is a self admitted J/C'er.

Hi, my name is kimc and I'm a J/C'er. I also kick kittens in my spare time and once I set my pomeranians on the mail carrier. That was really an accident though since I was trying to train them to fetch my slippers and the mail carrier likes REALLY comfy shoes...

As much as I hate to admit it I'm not THE mod. Please don't ignore akiraprise - he's a nice guy.

While this is true, I'm pretty sure the J/C and Janeway love in this forum has grown due to your influence.

And, Exodus, I think that anyone who does not think that the Janeway character is "Miss Universe" is reluctant to post because of the "Janeway or no way" attitude in this forum. I'm rather pleased that at least a few have spoken up in this thread.