It simply does not. No matter how much we want it to.
Janeway's Convient Morals
- Thread starter Zameaze
- Start date
It simply does not. No matter how much we want it to.
I think that I'm not 100% sold on Janeway, and a lot of others do not like her for one simple reason:
Tuvix.
She commits open murder in that episode. Tuvix makes it quite clear that he is a comfortable integrated person. Never mind the logical point of 2 people > 1 person, she effectively kills that person against his will. And unlike the "In the Pale Moonlight Situation" for Sisko, or "Damage" for Archer, Federation/Earth/Ship was not at stake.
Murder (and terrible writing by the creators for not realising that they are making their leading character do this).
Tuvix.
She commits open murder in that episode. Tuvix makes it quite clear that he is a comfortable integrated person. Never mind the logical point of 2 people > 1 person, she effectively kills that person against his will. And unlike the "In the Pale Moonlight Situation" for Sisko, or "Damage" for Archer, Federation/Earth/Ship was not at stake.
Murder (and terrible writing by the creators for not realising that they are making their leading character do this).
I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but this comment made me laugh more than anything on Trek BBS ever!
Actually I wonder given the answers here just what you did put into the search engine. And you are right YouTube videos are not really an accurate gauge. Within the fandom I know people that make videos are only a small percentage of the members.
Hundreds of Voyager fans that love Kathryn Janeway have retreated from places like the BBS simply because they are sick and tired of the forever Janeway bashing. The general feeling among such fans is that some fan sites, and I am sorry to tell you this, but the Trek BBS in particular allows a small vocal group of fans to bully the Janeway fans. We don’t expect everyone to love her, but we also expect to have the respect from other fans that we do.
I did a simple search using the Google Search Engine; I didn’t look at the sites but simply the count of hits.
J/C Fan Fiction – 3,230 hits
Kathryn Janeway – 18,600 hits
Captain Janeway – 28,100 hits
Voyager – 479,000 hits
But one thing you may not know is most of the sites for Janeway fans are also Chakotay fans, so if you search on Janeway/Chakotay you will get Janeway fans too.
Janeway / Chakotay – 2,720,000 hits
Last year someone tried to use the number of Voyager stories on FanFiction.net as an indicator of how many Janeway fans there were. This is a completely inadequate number because most of the Janeway/Chakotay fan fiction isn’t posted on that site. The other fact is that the best of the fan fiction writers have their own sites or are concentrated in group sites where the owner is hosting others’ fic. Because of this FanFiction.net is mostly for beginner fic writers and shouldn’t be used as an indicator of quality.
There are at least three Live Journal groups
http://community.livejournal.com/daily_jc/
http://community.livejournal.com/janewaychakotay/
http://community.livejournal.com/voyager_fans/
There are several Face Book Groups
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=366418642046
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=79829576214
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6879775459
http://www.facebook.com/kathrynjonvoy?v=info&ref=name#!/group.php?gid=2224399613
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=366418642046
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=340987848709
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2245778325
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2294869924
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2325263994
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2222195109
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=34756558282
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=299972605461
With the announcement of a new Voyager book, there have been two more groups opened. A Facebook site and a Twitter Account devoted to letting Pocket Books know that we want a living Janeway.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=366418642046&ref=nf
http://twitter.com/BrgBackJaneway
By the way, J/CVille at this point in time is not an accurate indication of numbers of fans either. This site owner also has an Internet business that used the same server and domain; she suffered a severe virus attack several months ago and completely lost her business pages and the J/CVille links. She is slowly building it back. It’s a great site, built by a loving fan and we are hoping that soon Amanda can build it back to what it used to be.
You just need to know how to look.
Brit
Then typing it was time well spent.
Considering one episode had Voyager's bridge so badly damaged that they had to run the ship from Engineering and the next one had it back to prestine condition with no explaination that isn't really a good way to judge the situation.
From a moral point of view (as opposed to a logic point of view) its no different to being forced to give up your organs to save multiple lives. No matter the circumstances of birth, Tuvok and Nelix were effectively dead and Tuvix was alive.
Look at the scene were he goes to everyone on the bridge and pleads with them before he is (forcibly) taken to sickbay.
Its murder and the only person who recognised this was the Doctor.
Look at the scene were he goes to everyone on the bridge and pleads with them before he is (forcibly) taken to sickbay.
Its murder and the only person who recognised this was the Doctor.
Thank you. You put in a lot of work into your list, and I'm sure many members are having fun checking it out now. But that's not what kimc was saying. She said a large number of websites were dedicated to Captain Janeway.
Actually I do know what she said, but I also have a pretty good idea of what she meant, which is why I posted the listing. Just because the fandom identifies its self as J/C doesn't mean it is not dedicated to Kathryn Janeway. There couldn't be a J/C fandom with out the J.
Brit
Not really, no. They weren't dead.
Eh, what were they then?
They certainly were not alive in any conventional sense of the word.
Rather hard to have a fruitful discussion if we don't stand by what we say. Also, mind reading tends to gum up the works.
They were trapped due to the bizarre results of a transporter accident, not dead but denied their continued existence due to said "accident". The accident was then undone to fully restore them to life.
Seriously, the most bizarre thing about that episode was that afterward Neelix and Tuvok didn't voice out their opinions on what it was like to be ALIVE again. That undercut the ambiguity of the situation and made it too much anti-Janeway (for SAVING two members of her crew).
Of course, had it been Kirk trying to de-merge Spock and McCoy if THEY had been fused together no one would have a problem...
I love it! You must be a Monty Python fan.
Which appears more like an effort to deny the existence of real Janeway fans. If you don't acknowledge us we don't exist. That's not how it works. Just because we identify ourselves as J/C sites does in no way negate the fact we are Janeway fans and should be counted as such.
Why is it so important to you that we not be counted as Janeway fans? Do we scare you? Is it possible that while you have driven us away for a while, the thought that we actually exist and can produce over two million hits on a search engine blow your mind?
Brit
That makes absolutely no sense, unless you're saying "real Janeway fans" don't stand by what they say and use mind reading as a way to put words in other people's mouths.
I'm sure that's not what you meant. Please explain.
There is an element here on the BBS that has been present on various Trek Boards, which would like to deny that there are any Janeway fans. Or if they are, they are few and almost non existence. A J/C site is a dedicated Janeway site, it represents a very real Janeway fan. So it appears that you are trying to deny us a place just because we don't exactly fit into the parameters you yourself have chosen.
We are Janeway fans, our sites are dedicated Janeway sites even though they are also coupled with the relationship element with Chakotay. We do fit into your parameter of dedicated Janeway site. I think I know what KimC meant because she goes to these sites herself; she even put up the link to one of these sites.
Just because you don't want to count us, doesn't mean we don't count.
Like Spock when I drop a hammer I really don't need to see it hit the ground to know that it has.
Brit
We are Janeway fans, our sites are dedicated Janeway sites even though they are also coupled with the relationship element with Chakotay. We do fit into your parameter of dedicated Janeway site. I think I know what KimC meant because she goes to these sites herself; she even put up the link to one of these sites.
Just because you don't want to count us, doesn't mean we don't count.
Like Spock when I drop a hammer I really don't need to see it hit the ground to know that it has.
Brit
No, they were gone. We hear nothing from them during the episode. I'm betting that when they were seperated that they had NO knowledge of the entire thing.
Tuvix as an individual existed. Not them. From a logical point of view Janeway probably did what was best for the crew, but from the moral point of view: no way at all. Look at the scene at the end. He is practically dragged to his death. How else can you explain the Doctor's reluctance to perform the operation? Do No Harm to the patient. He's certainly not a malfunction in the doc's eyes.
If it was Spcok/McCoy I would want them seperated. However, I would not kid myself into thinking that I am doing the MORAL thing.
From
http://hubpages.com/hub/Five_Moral_Dillemas_in_Star_Trek
"Tuvix had been a unique creation with his own personality. He had come about through no fault of his own and had not set out to destroy Tuvok or Neelix. His murder might be comparable to keeping Tuvok and Neelix alive by killing a third party and harvesting their organs. Yet ironically when Neelix's own organs were harvested, Janeway let it go. That kind of confused morality was an unfortunate hallmark of Star Trek Voyager as well as Captain Janeway's continued inability to distinguish between crew and family."
However, I see that this has been debated before and I have a feeling that I will not change your mind.
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=97557&page=3
So lets agree to disagree.
I will certainly not argue with your feelings. Just because someone disagrees with you on what constitutes a dedicated site does not mean that they're out to get you and other Janeway fans. And let's not forget, this is just a fictional character we're talking about.
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