After the Destiny events, The Typhon Pact and future novels

[JD]

Just a thought: That "110+" year ago Romulan incident? That may seem a lifetime ago to us, but not for Romulans, who have lifespans much longer then ours (I don't know their limits but I'm guessing it's a lot closer to Vulcan's 250-300 years then 24th century humans' 140-ish). There may still be bitter Romulans in high places who were friends with that first Romulan Commander.

Well, according the Memory Beta the Romulan Commander from Enterprise Incident is still alive after Nemsis, so that's not completely out of the realm of possibility. Although even if there are still Romulans from the TOS era still around, that doesn't necessarily mean that they still hate the Federation. A person changes can change alot in 110+ years.

 

[PrimeDirective]

Kinda forgot that whole "coming across the border and destroying Federation outposts" thing from Balance of Terror.

That was, what, 110+ YEARS before the Typhon Pact was formed. That's like saying the Japanese are not to be trusted because of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Remember the fall of the Soviet Union? That happened over, like, a weekend. They were the existential enemy of the entire Western World until we woke up one day and read in the morning papers that, suddenly, they didn't exist any more.

Political winds change; everything we think we know about politics among the Romulans based on TOS is completely null and void by the 2380's. Hell, everything we think we know about the political winds in the Romulan Empire based on Nemesis is pretty much out the window by 2381. So, not only do political winds change, they can change pretty damn fast when the players undergo profound stress. Which both the Federation and the RSE have in the last couple of years.

And that's a big reason why I'm looking forward to the Typhon Pact novels. Because I have absolutely no idea what to expect!

I'm excited, too! When are they expected to come out, anyway?

 

[F. King Daniel]

^End of the year, with the last in Jan 2011.

 

[Christopher]

Just a thought: That "110+" year ago Romulan incident? That may seem a lifetime ago to us, but not for Romulans, who have lifespans much longer then ours (I don't know their limits but I'm guessing it's a lot closer to Vulcan's 250-300 years then 24th century humans' 140-ish). There may still be bitter Romulans in high places who were friends with that first Romulan Commander.

So? The Soviet Union fell only about 20 years ago, well within the lifetimes of the people in power today. Back then, Germany was split in two, now it's reunited. Whole countries have come into being or ceased to exist, and the people running the countries that exist now still remember the way things were before. It doesn't mean they're all trapped in the past and incapable of altering the status quo, because politics and history are bigger than a few people's resistance to change.

Besides, I'd think that any friends of the "Balance of Terror" commander would be more likely to blame his demise on the warmongering Praetor who sent him on an unnecessary mission of aggression rather than on the Federation. Especially if you go with the John Byrne version from the comics. But given how many governmental purges the Romulans have gone through in the interim, I doubt there are that many of the old guard left (although Sherman & Shwartz have a rehabilitated Charvanek, their name for the "Enterprise Incident" Commander, holding a high post in the 24th-century Romulan government).

There may be living witness Tholians still pissed that Jonathan Archer didn't hand over that time ship in 2152, or that Enterprise didn't piss off immediately after the Defiant warbled off to the mirror universe.

I believe The Sundered established that individual Tholians have extremely short lifespans, but they have somewhat of a hive mentality. Anyway, it's already well-established in the books that the Tholian government does hold a grudge against the Federation for the events of Vanguard. Of all the Pact members, the Tholians are clearly the most hostile toward the Federation. But that's balanced out by the Gorn, who have apparently always had amiable relations with the UFP save for two incidents (and whose current regime owes its existence to Picard and Data).

Anyway, even granted that most of the members of the Pact have some history of tension with the Federation, that doesn't mean that's the one and only issue that defines them as governments or as species. From the perspective of the Trek viewer, it seems as if the whole universe revolves around the Federation and that neighboring powers are defined solely in relation to it; but realistically, from the perspective of one of these other governments, the Federation would be just one of many concerns, internal and external, that it had to deal with. The Pact is going to have to deal with all those issues -- their internal economic and social problems, their relations with neighboring nations other than the UFP and the Khitomer Accord signatories, the effort to balance the priorities and agendas of the Pact's own members, etc. Even if some of their members do have grudges against the Federation, that doesn't mean that's necessarily going to be the singular thing defining their policies and actions as an alliance, because it's just one of many things they'll have to weigh -- including the wildly conflicting agendas of the Pact's own members, their jockeying for status in the fledgling alliance, etc.

Humans appear to have shorter lifespans then the majority of Trek aliens. This Typhon Pact, although only publicized and revealed recently, may have been the life's work of Gorn, Romulan, Breen (how long to Breen live?), Kinshaya and Tholian ambassadors.

Not according to what we were explicitly told about its formation in A Singular Destiny. It was a reaction to the events of the Destiny trilogy.

Also, we have no information on the life expectancies of Gorn, Breen, Kinshaya, or Tzenkethi. There is a Strange New Worlds story depicting the Gorn captain from "Arena" encountering Ben Sisko, but SNW stories generally aren't treated as part of the overall novel continuity.

 

[JD]

Well, alot of Earth reptiles have a pretty long life span, so the chances are that the Gorn probably do too. I know they aren't from Earth, but when creating aliens based on real world animals alot of authors seem to keep traits from those animals.

 

[BillJ]

Kinda forgot that whole "coming across the border and destroying Federation outposts" thing from Balance of Terror.

That was, what, 110+ YEARS before the Typhon Pact was formed. That's like saying the Japanese are not to be trusted because of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Remember the fall of the Soviet Union? That happened over, like, a weekend. They were the existential enemy of the entire Western World until we woke up one day and read in the morning papers that, suddenly, they didn't exist any more.

Political winds change; everything we think we know about politics among the Romulans based on TOS is completely null and void by the 2380's. Hell, everything we think we know about the political winds in the Romulan Empire based on Nemesis is pretty much out the window by 2381. So, not only do political winds change, they can change pretty damn fast when the players undergo profound stress. Which both the Federation and the RSE have in the last couple of years.

And that's a big reason why I'm looking forward to the Typhon Pact novels. Because I have absolutely no idea what to expect!

Just pointing it out because the incident involving entering Romulan space and stealing a cloaking device only happened two years later.

 

[PrimeDirective]

Kinda forgot that whole "coming across the border and destroying Federation outposts" thing from Balance of Terror.

That was, what, 110+ YEARS before the Typhon Pact was formed. That's like saying the Japanese are not to be trusted because of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Remember the fall of the Soviet Union? That happened over, like, a weekend. They were the existential enemy of the entire Western World until we woke up one day and read in the morning papers that, suddenly, they didn't exist any more.

Political winds change; everything we think we know about politics among the Romulans based on TOS is completely null and void by the 2380's. Hell, everything we think we know about the political winds in the Romulan Empire based on Nemesis is pretty much out the window by 2381. So, not only do political winds change, they can change pretty damn fast when the players undergo profound stress. Which both the Federation and the RSE have in the last couple of years.

And that's a big reason why I'm looking forward to the Typhon Pact novels. Because I have absolutely no idea what to expect!

Just pointing it out because the incident involving entering Romulan space and stealing a cloaking device only happened two years later.

The Federation and Starfleet Command didn't give the go-ahead for that mission, without first giving it some serious consideration. Stealing the cloaking device was probably the best thing that could've happened to the galaxy, because with the Federation having it, they could use it as a deterrent against any future Romulan threat to the galaxy.

 

[Sci]

That was, what, 110+ YEARS before the Typhon Pact was formed. That's like saying the Japanese are not to be trusted because of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Remember the fall of the Soviet Union? That happened over, like, a weekend. They were the existential enemy of the entire Western World until we woke up one day and read in the morning papers that, suddenly, they didn't exist any more.

Political winds change; everything we think we know about politics among the Romulans based on TOS is completely null and void by the 2380's. Hell, everything we think we know about the political winds in the Romulan Empire based on Nemesis is pretty much out the window by 2381. So, not only do political winds change, they can change pretty damn fast when the players undergo profound stress. Which both the Federation and the RSE have in the last couple of years.

And that's a big reason why I'm looking forward to the Typhon Pact novels. Because I have absolutely no idea what to expect!

Just pointing it out because the incident involving entering Romulan space and stealing a cloaking device only happened two years later.

The Federation and Starfleet Command didn't give the go-ahead for that mission, without first giving it some serious consideration. Stealing the cloaking device was probably the best thing that could've happened to the galaxy, because with the Federation having it, they could use it as a deterrent against any future Romulan threat to the galaxy.

In other words, if the FEDERATION invades a sovereign state's territory, attacks their ships, and steals their technology, that's okay and is in no way evidence of Federation imperialism. But if the ROMULANS invade Federation territory, that's irrefutable evidence that they intend to conquer the entire galaxy.

Who says nationalism is dead?

 

[DBall]

And this, to me, is what's so particularly amazing about the current direction of TrekLit. After Destiny, we genuinely have a whole new paradigm, one in which no one really has any idea what to expect. It's incredibly exciting as a reader to be able to even have a thread like this, where the argument under consideration is essentially what the entire alien population of near-Federation space will do next! Because we really have no idea. This story could go in a million directions.

So cool.

I agree with this 100%... this is a great time in TrekLit for certain!

 

[BillJ]

Just pointing it out because the incident involving entering Romulan space and stealing a cloaking device only happened two years later.

The Federation and Starfleet Command didn't give the go-ahead for that mission, without first giving it some serious consideration. Stealing the cloaking device was probably the best thing that could've happened to the galaxy, because with the Federation having it, they could use it as a deterrent against any future Romulan threat to the galaxy.

In other words, if the FEDERATION invades a sovereign state's territory, attacks their ships, and steals their technology, that's okay and is in no way evidence of Federation imperialism. But if the ROMULANS invade Federation territory, that's irrefutable evidence that they intend to conquer the entire galaxy.

Who says nationalism is dead?

Well... I think when someone enters your space and starts blowing up your outposts, they probably aren't interested in your general well-being.

I always saw actions in The Enterprise Incident being directly influenced by the Romulan actions in Balance of Terror.

 

[Sci]

The Federation and Starfleet Command didn't give the go-ahead for that mission, without first giving it some serious consideration. Stealing the cloaking device was probably the best thing that could've happened to the galaxy, because with the Federation having it, they could use it as a deterrent against any future Romulan threat to the galaxy.

In other words, if the FEDERATION invades a sovereign state's territory, attacks their ships, and steals their technology, that's okay and is in no way evidence of Federation imperialism. But if the ROMULANS invade Federation territory, that's irrefutable evidence that they intend to conquer the entire galaxy.

Who says nationalism is dead?

Well... I think when someone enters your space and starts blowing up your outposts, they probably aren't interested in your general well-being.

I always saw actions in The Enterprise Incident being directly influenced by the Romulan actions in Balance of Terror.

"Freddie, stop hitting Ronnie!"

"But he STARTED it!"

 

[BillJ]

In other words, if the FEDERATION invades a sovereign state's territory, attacks their ships, and steals their technology, that's okay and is in no way evidence of Federation imperialism. But if the ROMULANS invade Federation territory, that's irrefutable evidence that they intend to conquer the entire galaxy.

Who says nationalism is dead?

Well... I think when someone enters your space and starts blowing up your outposts, they probably aren't interested in your general well-being.

I always saw actions in The Enterprise Incident being directly influenced by the Romulan actions in Balance of Terror.

"Freddie, stop hitting Ronnie!"

"But he STARTED it!"

Some days I wonder if you actually watch the show?

The Enterprise did not fire a shot in The Enterprise Incident. The entire mission was based on maintaining a balance of power.

If someone was sneaking in and destroying your outposts two years earlier, would you want them to have a technology that allows them to enter and exit your space at will without being detected? Or do you believe that the Romulans upgraded their cloaking technology for the Federation's general well being?

KIRK: The design of the ship is the same. Mister Spock, you said you had a theory on why your sensors didn't pick up the new ships until they were upon us.
SPOCK: I believe the Romulans have developed a cloaking device which renders our tracking sensors useless.
KIRK: If so, Romulans could attack in Federation territory before we knew they were there, before a vessel or planet could get even begin to get their defences up.

 

[Sci]

Well... I think when someone enters your space and starts blowing up your outposts, they probably aren't interested in your general well-being.

I always saw actions in The Enterprise Incident being directly influenced by the Romulan actions in Balance of Terror.

"Freddie, stop hitting Ronnie!"

"But he STARTED it!"

Some days I wonder if you actually watch the show?

Gasp!

My secret revealed.

Yes, it is true. I've never seen any episodes of Star Trek. Ever.

I'm actually a Babylon 5 fan sent to infiltrate the Trekkie ranks.

The Enterprise did not fire a shot in The Enterprise Incident. The entire mission was based on maintaining a balance of power.

I'm aware. I'm also aware that the entire concept of "balance of power" requires intense, nationalistic hypocrisy on the part of the political actors -- the ability to condemn the other side for doing the very thing one's self is doing. It requires, as George Orwell might put it, a certain amount of doublethink.

If someone was sneaking in and destroying your outposts two years earlier, would you want them to have a technology that allows them to enter and exit your space at will without being detected? Or do you believe that the Romulans upgraded their cloaking technology for the Federation's general well being?

Nope. But I also don't think that the Federation can lay claim to the moral high ground, especially since they had obviously managed to detect enough problems with the cloaking device to track the Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror."

If you're going to engage in balance of power and realpolitick, at least spare us the moral superiority act. Realpolitick requires a deliberate choice to relinquish the moral high ground and willingness to accept moral equivalency, at least in terms of short-term behavior, with those with whom one is struggling.

 

[Christopher]

Well... I think when someone enters your space and starts blowing up your outposts, they probably aren't interested in your general well-being.

Yes, clearly the Praetor who was in power in 2266 (either Vrax, established in Summon the Thunder, or the Caligula-esque Praetor of John Byrne's comics) was interested in aggression against the Federation. The dialogue in "Balance of Terror" told us that much. But assuming that has any bearing whatsoever on the agenda of the Romulan Star Empire ruled by Tal'Aura in 2381 and after makes about as much sense as assuming that the current prime minister of Japan plans to invade China just because the Meiji Emperor did so in 1895. We're talking about totally different regimes, totally different eras. There have been at least half a dozen intervening Romulan Praetors and governments in the interim between "Balance of Terror" and The Typhon Pact, most of them coming to power by violently overthrowing their predecessors. So it makes absolutely no sense to treat the Romulan government of the 2260s as the same entity as the Romulan government of the 2380s -- especially when the political body called the Romulan Star Empire as of the 2380s is only a portion of the state of that name that existed prior to 2380.

And we've seen canonically that the Romulan Star Empire has gone through multiple different foreign policies over that interval as well. The expansionism of the 2260s gave way to an extended period of isolationism by 2311, then a renewed period of aggression starting in 2364, then alliance with the Federation and Klingons in the last year or two of the Dominion War, then a period of detente with the Federation until Shinzon's brutal coup in 2379 killed off most of the sitting Romulan government. And the books thereafter have shown the Romulans in chaos and civil war in the wake of that event, leading eventually to the schism of the whole empire between Tal'Aura's remnant RSE and Donatra's Imperial Romulan State, both of which have equally legitimate (or illegitimate) claims to being the "true" Romulan government.

So to assume any simplistic continuity of policy over that whole span of time, when the evidence overwhelmingly shows otherwise, just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Penta]

Uh, Japan has never had a President. </Pedant>

 

[Christopher]

Fixed.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Not according to what we were explicitly told about its formation in A Singular Destiny. It was a reaction to the events of the Destiny trilogy.

I find that a little hard to believe. Wasn't ASD only a few months after Destiny? To create a political alliance with it's own currency isn't the sort of thing you do over the weekend. A loose alliance? Fine, I could belive that. But the Pact is (supposedly) much more.

Even if the events of Destiny kicked things into high gear, and got the plan off the ground, there had to have been years of preliminary talks, at least between some of the powers involved.

 

[Christopher]

Even if the events of Destiny kicked things into high gear, and got the plan off the ground, there had to have been years of preliminary talks, at least between some of the powers involved.

If so, it would've surely included the more moderate members of the Pact such as the Gorn. It would've taken something really big to shock xenophobic powers like the Tholians and Kinshaya into realizing there was benefit in cooperating with their neighbors. After all, the Pact's member species are just as alien to each other as the Federation is to any of them.

So it's still not logical to argue that the Pact's only reason for existing is to be black-hat villains twirling their moustaches while they assemble a warfleet to destroy the Federation. Any years of prior talks would've been between moderate, less xenophobic states and thus would probably have been geared more toward cooperation and mutual economic benefit, not driven by hatred toward the UFP.

 

[BillJ]

Well... I think when someone enters your space and starts blowing up your outposts, they probably aren't interested in your general well-being.

Yes, clearly the Praetor who was in power in 2266 (either Vrax, established in Summon the Thunder, or the Caligula-esque Praetor of John Byrne's comics) was interested in aggression against the Federation. The dialogue in "Balance of Terror" told us that much. But assuming that has any bearing whatsoever on the agenda of the Romulan Star Empire ruled by Tal'Aura in 2381 and after makes about as much sense as assuming that the current prime minister of Japan plans to invade China just because the Meiji Emperor did so in 1895. We're talking about totally different regimes, totally different eras. There have been at least half a dozen intervening Romulan Praetors and governments in the interim between "Balance of Terror" and The Typhon Pact, most of them coming to power by violently overthrowing their predecessors. So it makes absolutely no sense to treat the Romulan government of the 2260s as the same entity as the Romulan government of the 2380s -- especially when the political body called the Romulan Star Empire as of the 2380s is only a portion of the state of that name that existed prior to 2380.

And we've seen canonically that the Romulan Star Empire has gone through multiple different foreign policies over that interval as well. The expansionism of the 2260s gave way to an extended period of isolationism by 2311, then a renewed period of aggression starting in 2364, then alliance with the Federation and Klingons in the last year or two of the Dominion War, then a period of detente with the Federation until Shinzon's brutal coup in 2379 killed off most of the sitting Romulan government. And the books thereafter have shown the Romulans in chaos and civil war in the wake of that event, leading eventually to the schism of the whole empire between Tal'Aura's remnant RSE and Donatra's Imperial Romulan State, both of which have equally legitimate (or illegitimate) claims to being the "true" Romulan government.

So to assume any simplistic continuity of policy over that whole span of time, when the evidence overwhelmingly shows otherwise, just doesn't make any sense.

I actually was just pointing out that Sci had left out the original attacks in his analysis while including the Federation going in and stealing the cloaking device. Also pointing out that the actions taken in The Enterprise Incident were a direct result of Romulan aggression in Balance of Terror.

But then again it is always good to evaluate every piece of information at hand when dealing with a potential enemy.

 

[BillJ]

"Freddie, stop hitting Ronnie!"

"But he STARTED it!"

Some days I wonder if you actually watch the show?

Gasp!

My secret revealed.

Yes, it is true. I've never seen any episodes of Star Trek. Ever.

I'm actually a Babylon 5 fan sent to infiltrate the Trekkie ranks.

The Enterprise did not fire a shot in The Enterprise Incident. The entire mission was based on maintaining a balance of power.

I'm aware. I'm also aware that the entire concept of "balance of power" requires intense, nationalistic hypocrisy on the part of the political actors -- the ability to condemn the other side for doing the very thing one's self is doing. It requires, as George Orwell might put it, a certain amount of doublethink.

If someone was sneaking in and destroying your outposts two years earlier, would you want them to have a technology that allows them to enter and exit your space at will without being detected? Or do you believe that the Romulans upgraded their cloaking technology for the Federation's general well being?

Nope. But I also don't think that the Federation can lay claim to the moral high ground, especially since they had obviously managed to detect enough problems with the cloaking device to track the Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror."

If you're going to engage in balance of power and realpolitick, at least spare us the moral superiority act. Realpolitick requires a deliberate choice to relinquish the moral high ground and willingness to accept moral equivalency, at least in terms of short-term behavior, with those with whom one is struggling.

You're really overthinking it. No where in the episode does Kirk claim the supposed "high-ground". Just the simple fact the the Romulans have a new toy that allows them to avoid motion sensors and that the Federation can't afford for them to have that advantage.

No where in the episode is there a claim of right or wrong... just of what is necessary.