After the Destiny events, The Typhon Pact and future novels

[Christopher]

So, it's not all hunky dory.

Of course; nobody's saying that it is. Naturally there has to be tension between the Federation and the Typhon Pact, or else there's no story. The mistake some people are making, though, is assuming that the only possible kind of conflict between nations is warfare, that the only possible kind of adversary the Federation can have is one that's arming to conquer and destroy it. The idea with the Typhon Pact is to explore a rivalry that's more political, ideological, economic, etc. rather than military, and one that's more nuanced than a simple good-vs.-evil shooting match. After all, we've had the Dominion War, we've had the Borg Invasion, we've got the Earth-Romulan War going on in the ENT books, and ST Online has got two or three wars going on at once. What I'm telling people is, give the novelists a little more credit for imagination. War stories aren't the only thing we're capable of.

Yes, there's plenty of bad blood between the Pact members and the Federation. But -- and this is my original point -- the fact that these traditionally xenophobic cultures have chosen to band together for their mutual good is a promising sign. It shows they're potentially willing to change and adopt a more cooperative approach. And that's something that can be built upon. I'm not saying they've fundamentally reformed yet, but the potential is there. And that's what makes the Pact so interesting -- the fact that it isn't simplistically portrayed or defined. The fact that it has the potential to go either way. I'm not denying it could go in a very dark direction, but there's also an element of hope inherent in the Pact's very existence.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What I did say is that we shouldn't sugar-coat everything the Federation does and act as though it is by definition morally good. The Federation is culturally imperialist

The word "imperialist" has been used as an insult far too many times. It carries with it the implication of evil. So accusing the Federation of being imperialist implies that one believes it has evil or malicious intent, which is clearly not actually the case.

 

[DBall]

Why do people keep thinking that?? Why is it so hard for some people to get past this stereotype that every rival power must be warmongering aggressors? I'm going to remind you of what's been pointed out about fifty times on this forum by now: that when the Kinshaya and the Tholians went off on aggressive campaigns of their own, the rest of the Typhon Pact members stopped them. Read A Singular Destiny -- it's right there.

To me, it seems possible they halted those actions to wait until they become larger, more coherent. A blossoming new power in it's infancy stands far less of a chance than one that is a bit seasoned.

I don't believe that war will erupt immediately, but I can see a "this town ain't big enough for the two of us" scenario down the road.

Regardless of what happens... I will get these books the second they come out. I am super excited to see what happens here.

 

[JD]

I'm starting to think that part of our problem here, is that alot of people seem to think that when it comes to conflict with a foreign power, either everyone is getting along and thing is great, or it's all out war. This is not at all the case in most real life situations though, most conflicts tend to fall into many different levels in between those two, and I'm thinking the UFP/TP conflict will probably be on one of those medium levels.

Anyways, even if things are going to go all the way to full fledged war (which I doubt very much) then the TP would be pretty stupid to do it right now. They aren't even completely finished set up the alliance yet, so at this point things are way to much in flux to even begin to be ready to fight a way against the 200+ year old Federation. It will probably take several decades at least, before they would be anywhere near stable enough to even be able to stand up to the Federation.

 

[F. King Daniel]

A little OT, but this thread has me wondering:
I wonder, if the Federation ever came across another galactic alliance, one that somehow (the how doesn't really matter) managed to live up to the Federation's ideals better then it did or even improved upon the ideals themselves, would the Federation join up? Or would the human need for power and control rear it's ugly head? The Federation is far too human-centric for an alliance of 150 spiecies, I think most of us would agree. What if those humans were threatened with demotion from Alpha Male planet and people to "just another of our 150 new members (of this other, better, hypothetical alliance)"?

 

[Christopher]

I think there's got to be a maximum attainable size for a single political entity, even a federal system granting considerable local independence to its members. Past a certain size, it just becomes too impractical to administrate. I'd think the Federation would simply ally with those powers rather than joining them.

 

[TerraUnam]

I for one am glad that the writers are taking a nuanced approach to the Typhon Pact. I put down the "Cold War" marketing to executives of a certain age for whom that resonates. It doesn't resonate with me. The Berlin Wall fell when I was in Grade 1. A few years later I went off to summer camp for two weeks, and when I came home the Soviet Union was gone. I've known several Russians in my time, and they came to live near my home, I've never been to Russia.

The Cold War is book history for me. It doesn't mean much emotionally. Nuclear Weapons? Scary 'cause some cabal might get them, not because That Nasty Country has them.

Good to know the Typhon Pact won't be a Cold War trope.

 

[Herbert1]

^Perhaps since some fans don't remember the Cold War, they think that the only conflict between nations can be warfare. During the Cold War, even international sporting events like the Olympics were a conflict between the Western nations and the Warsaw Pact and were heavily politicized.

 

[captcalhoun]

Nuclear Weapons? Scary 'cause some cabal might get them, not because That Nasty Country has them.

clearly you've not been paying attention to the Iran and North Korea situations then.

 

[pookha]

Then why haven't we seen the Romulans invading the interstellar Sudetenland and demanding Czechoslovakia?
.

well they have made attempts to try but got their noses smacked for doing so.

no matter how sneaky they have been,,
such as the attempt in unification.

and as the tholian ambassador said..
these powers do feel hostility toward the federation.

and with the federation and starfleet being in such sorry shape now..
yeah i would be a little concerned.

things just look rather bleak except for whatever good the exploration vessesls such as the luna class bring about.

 

[David cgc]

and with the federation and starfleet being in such sorry shape now..
yeah i would be a little concerned.

Well, they're hardly unique in that respect. I'd imagine that was part of the behind-the-scenes reason for putting the Borg Interstellar Bypass square in the middle of the tri-border; the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans (and the adjacent powers) all got their asses kicked pretty much equally. And the foreign entities on the opposite border of the Federation would still be in rough shape from the Dominion War.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I think the main thing we have to keep in mind is that everyone must be far too confused to have any real agenda at this point. I mean, these societies were going about their business as normal, then suddenly the Federation started making a fuss about the Borg, so everyone stuck their fingers in their ears, then the Federation started being annoyingly persistant and essentially bullied everyone into joining them and--HOLY CRAP, BORG INVASION, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE AND-oh, wait, it's all over. And now the Federation is suddenly- within about a day- lying half in ruins, as are the Klingons, and we're all standing around with our mouths open in shock and thinking "well, the Gorn might be odd looking and annoying, but I'd rather have them standing beside me if something like that ever happens again". And then realizing "isn't that what the Federation always said?" This must be really confusing.

They perceive the Federation (rightly or wrongly doesn't matter) as an overbearing holier-than-thou superpower restricting and confining them, economically, territory-wise, philosophically, whatever. The Borg crisis merely reinforced their idea of the Federation as a bully who just happens to smile and speak pleasantly- yet it also proved in rather shocking fashion that the Federation has the right idea (even Tezrene admits up-front that the Federation is the model for the Pact, at least in terms of basic concept).

The Tholians and the Breen, and the Gorn and Tzenkethi and Romulan Star Empire, have spent many decades - or centuries in some cases- feeling confined and restricted by the Federation and its expansion, as well as the Klingon's aggression (the Kinshaya seem to base their entire foreign policy on "fight off Klingons"). Whether they have cause to feel so threatened and frustrated is another thing. Some of the Romulans clearly desire the old days of conquest and feel frustrated that the Federation sprung up and halted them in their tracks- other Romulans seem content to keep the empire as it is now but fear the Federation anyway- after all, might not closer ties with the Federation lead simply to Romulus becoming a second Vulcan? The Gorn seem highly territorial, but not expansionist. They don't seem to have a quarrel with the Federation- indeed, the Black Crest which did had to violently topple the ruling Crest before it could act- but they clearly find the Federation's "soft imperialism" a threat (see Ambassador Zogazin's comments in "Mere Mortals" about Qo'noS having been annexed by the UFP). The Breen are a mystery, of course, but we know the Tzenkethi have a near-insane fear of Federation expansion (or at least that's the Tzelnira's favourite demon with which to scare the populace). I don't think the Kinshaya really remember the Federation exists most of the time (I think their worldview overall seems to be "There's us, the Klingon demons we fight, and, oh, also a load of other unimportant stuff out there in the wider galaxy")

The Pact members have had quite a shock, I imagine. They had a powerful opponent (or at least a rival), who is polite and friendly but overbearing and moralizing and who is scooping up territory and resources at an alarming rate. Plus, the big, tough bruiser (Klingons) is standing at their side and looking menacing. Suddenly, this powerful opponent is set upon by an insanely powerful outside force which cares nothing for the petty politics of the region, and before their very eyes the rival has the crap beaten out of them. It's obvious everyone else is next, but then the threat's over suddenly. So, for the first time ever, the Federation and Klingons are lying there in a bloody heap and there is no longer any threat to anyone else (the Borg are now gone, after all). There must on one level be the desire to scream "now's our chance! Kick them while they're down!"- which the Kinshaya of course quickly embraced. But it's nowhere near that simple, because the Borg invasion also proved the Federation was correct in trying to get everyone to stand together. The rival is finally down and beaten, but it's finally been made clear that the rival was in fact right, and that their way works. So what do the Tholians, Breen, etc, do? Where do they go from here?

The confusion must be intense, and there must be so many feelings to come to terms with as a society: relief that the Borg didn't reach them, excitement at the new opportunities in a galaxy where the UFP and Klingons are no longer holding everyone else back, glee that the "overbearing" Federation got a bloody nose, shock that the Federation had it right all along, and above all the possibility of looking at their neighbours in a new way. The entire situation must be as confusing as hell! I doubt the peoples of the Pact quite know what to do- everything's changed, and they're probably still trying to work it all out. They've thrown this historic union together so quickly, they probably can't even be fully sure what it is they're truly doing. They probably aren't even sure how to relate to one another yet, much less the tricky question of "what do we do about the Federation?".

I mean, the Breen and the Romulans hate each other- this is well established in the novels. But now Tal'aura won't accept aid from Donatra (a fellow Romulan) but she apparently will accept it from the Breen and the (no doubt "lesser") Tholians and Gorn. What? And, wait, aren't we Romulans?, cry the traditionalists- is it not our destiny to one day rule over all the lesser peoples? Now you tell us the giant crystal scorpions and green lizards and colourful griffins are our equals? In that case, who are we, then? The internal struggles and difficulties must come first, then the question of how this Pact is going to work- I'm guessing the Federation question is a distinct third to most (a few particularly spiteful Tholians excepted).

 

[PrimeDirective]

I think the main thing we have to keep in mind is that everyone must be far too confused to have any real agenda at this point. I mean, these societies were going about their business as normal, then suddenly the Federation started making a fuss about the Borg, so everyone stuck their fingers in their ears, then the Federation started being annoyingly persistant and essentially bullied everyone into joining them and--HOLY CRAP, BORG INVASION, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE AND-oh, wait, it's all over. And now the Federation is suddenly- within about a day- lying half in ruins, as are the Klingons, and we're all standing around with our mouths open in shock and thinking "well, the Gorn might be odd looking and annoying, but I'd rather have them standing beside me if something like that ever happens again". And then realizing "isn't that what the Federation always said?" This must be really confusing.

They perceive the Federation (rightly or wrongly doesn't matter) as an overbearing holier-than-thou superpower restricting and confining them, economically, territory-wise, philosophically, whatever. The Borg crisis merely reinforced their idea of the Federation as a bully who just happens to smile and speak pleasantly- yet it also proved in rather shocking fashion that the Federation has the right idea (even Tezrene admits up-front that the Federation is the model for the Pact, at least in terms of basic concept).

The Tholians and the Breen, and the Gorn and Tzenkethi and Romulan Star Empire, have spent many decades - or centuries in some cases- feeling confined and restricted by the Federation and its expansion, as well as the Klingon's aggression (the Kinshaya seem to base their entire foreign policy on "fight off Klingons"). Whether they have cause to feel so threatened and frustrated is another thing. Some of the Romulans clearly desire the old days of conquest and feel frustrated that the Federation sprung up and halted them in their tracks- other Romulans seem content to keep the empire as it is now but fear the Federation anyway- after all, might not closer ties with the Federation lead simply to Romulus becoming a second Vulcan? The Gorn seem highly territorial, but not expansionist. They don't seem to have a quarrel with the Federation- indeed, the Black Crest which did had to violently topple the ruling Crest before it could act- but they clearly find the Federation's "soft imperialism" a threat (see Ambassador Zogazin's comments in "Mere Mortals" about Qo'noS having been annexed by the UFP). The Breen are a mystery, of course, but we know the Tzenkethi have a near-insane fear of Federation expansion (or at least that's the Tzelnira's favourite demon with which to scare the populace). I don't think the Kinshaya really remember the Federation exists most of the time (I think their worldview overall seems to be "There's us, the Klingon demons we fight, and, oh, also a load of other unimportant stuff out there in the wider galaxy")

The Pact members have had quite a shock, I imagine. They had a powerful opponent (or at least a rival), who is polite and friendly but overbearing and moralizing and who is scooping up territory and resources at an alarming rate. Plus, the big, tough bruiser (Klingons) is standing at their side and looking menacing. Suddenly, this powerful opponent is set upon by an insanely powerful outside force which cares nothing for the petty politics of the region, and before their very eyes the rival has the crap beaten out of them. It's obvious everyone else is next, but then the threat's over suddenly. So, for the first time ever, the Federation and Klingons are lying there in a bloody heap and there is no longer any threat to anyone else (the Borg are now gone, after all). There must on one level be the desire to scream "now's our chance! Kick them while their down!"- which the Kinshaya of course quickly embraced. But it's nowhere near that simple, because the Borg invasion also proved the Federation was correct in trying to get everyone to stand together. The rival is finally down and beaten, but it's finally been made clear that the rival was in fact right, and that their way works. So what do the Tholians, Breen, etc, do? Where do they go from here?

The confusion must be intense, and there must be so many feelings to come to terms with as a society: relief that the Borg didn't reach them, excitement at the new opportunities in a galaxy where the UFP and Klingons are no longer holding everyone else back, glee that the "overbearing" Federation got a bloody nose, shock that the Federation had it right all along, and above all the possibility of looking at their neighbours in a new way. The entire situation must be as confusing as hell! I doubt the peoples of the Pact quite know what to do- everything's changed, and they're probably still trying to work it all out. They've thrown this historic union together so quickly, they probably can't even be fully sure what it is they're truly doing. They probably aren't even sure how to relate to one another yet, much less the tricky question of "what do we do about the Federation?".

I mean, the Breen and the Romulans hate each other- this is well established in the novels. But now Tal'aura won't accept aid from Donatra (a fellow Romulan) but she apparently will accept it from the Breen and the (no doubt "lesser") Tholians and Gorn. What? And, wait, aren't we Romulans?, cry the traditionalists- is it not our destiny to one day rule over all the lesser peoples? Now you tell us the giant crystal scorpions and green lizards and colourful griffins are our equals? In that case, who are we, then? The internal struggles and difficulties must come first, then the question of how this Pact is going to work- I'm guessing the Federation question is a distinct third to most (a few particularly spiteful Tholians excepted).

You make a very good point regarding the sorry state of affairs that not only the Federation and its allies are in, but practically everyone in the galaxy. I like the way you discuss the Typhon Pact's reason for forming, and its likely intentions. You don't patronize those on here who are rightfully suspicious of the Pact's agenda, but you also don't glorify the Federation(you make them and their allies seem very humble). It's good to know that there is someone in Starfleet Command that has a good head on their shoulders

 

[Deranged Nasat]

You make a very good point regarding the sorry state of affairs that not only the Federation and its allies are in, but practically everyone in the galaxy. I like the way you discuss the Typhon Pact's reason for forming, and its likely intentions. You don't patronize those on here who are rightfully suspicious of the Pact's agenda, but you also don't glorify the Federation(you make them and their allies seem very humble).

Indeed, I think everyone in the galaxy has been humbled. The Federation is no longer the big superpower nor the only force working for peace and unity. It can't feel quite so superior anymore. On the other hand, the Pact members have been humbled too, because after all this time more or less sneering at the Federation way, they've finally realized the Federation was right. I think everyone is going to have to readjust.

I imagine that when the Gorn, say, got the Federation's request for aid against the Borg, they thought "Oh here we go again. It's Dominion War mark two- the Federation is being attacked because it stuck its nose out and attracted the wrong kind of attention, and now it's insisting we have some sort of obligation to send our ships and warriors to help them. The arrogant bastards. Okay, we owe them one for that Black Crest business, and we have no quarrel with them because they are trustworthy and won't invade our territory, but still..." So they make a fuss and drag their feet and cause problems. Of course, we readers know the Federation is right- everyone does need to stand together to face the Borg. The Gorn don't have our big-picture knowledge, though. All they can see is that the Federation is insisting everyone else come and fight for them. And the Gorn have a point; the Federation is certainly the "good guy", definitely, but it isn't perfect and it may not realize just how it looks to the other nations, what with being so casually complacent.

Of course the final invasion hammered home the point that the Federation was right all along. The Gorn could now see it; but they still find the Federation's overbearing nature offensive. Of course, the Federation is also humbled now- it can't be overbearing anymore, because it's so damaged and no longer the superpower. It might have to listen when the Gorn say "you're really arrogant sometimes, you know that?" And the Gorn are humbled in turn because they were perhaps too busy moaning about the messanger's faults to see that the message was the right one.

I think that's the main issue behind the Typhon Pact- these cultures can now see the Federation is right, but they still have issues as to how the Federation conducts itself in regards to other nations. Some of those concerns are understandable and justified, some aren't. For every Gorn with legitimate complaints about Federation arrogance, there's a Tholian who is just spiteful. Maybe some Tzenkethi have genuine concerns about Federation soft imperalism, while other Tzenkethi just believe the conspiracy theories about the eeeeevvvillll Federation. Some Breen might be thoughtful as to what the Federation has to offer as an ally to the Pact as well as an inspiration, while some other Breen might be gleefully insisting it's time to get aggressive and kick the Federation in the butt again.

I think overall the Pact needs to decide what exactly it is and how it's going to balance six major voices, themselves split between dozens of lesser perspectives, before it can make any move regarding the Federation- regardless of whether that move turns out to be an olive branch or a large stick (or neither).

 

[PrimeDirective]

You make a very good point regarding the sorry state of affairs that not only the Federation and its allies are in, but practically everyone in the galaxy. I like the way you discuss the Typhon Pact's reason for forming, and its likely intentions. You don't patronize those on here who are rightfully suspicious of the Pact's agenda, but you also don't glorify the Federation(you make them and their allies seem very humble).

Indeed, I think everyone in the galaxy has been humbled. The Federation is no longer the big superpower nor the only force working for peace and unity. It can't feel quite so superior anymore. On the other hand, the Pact members have been humbled too, because after all this time more or less sneering at the Federation way, they've finally realized the Federation was right. I think everyone is going to have to readjust.

I imagine that when the Gorn, say, got the Federation's request for aid against the Borg, they thought "Oh here we go again. It's Dominion War mark two- the Federation is being attacked because it stuck its nose out and attracted the wrong kind of attention, and now it's insisting we have some sort of obligation to send our ships and warriors to help them. The arrogant bastards. Okay, we owe them one for that Black Crest business, and we have no quarrel with them because they are trustworthy and won't invade our territory, but still..." So they make a fuss and drag their feet and cause problems. Of course, we readers know the Federation is right- everyone does need to stand together to face the Borg. The Gorn don't have our big-picture knowledge, though. All they can see is that the Federation is insisting everyone else come and fight for them. And the Gorn have a point; the Federation is certainly the "good guy", definitely, but it isn't perfect and it may not realize just how it looks to the other nations, what with being so casually complacent.

Of course the final invasion hammered home the point that the Federation was right all along. The Gorn could now see it; but they still find the Federation's overbearing nature offensive. Of course, the Federation is also humbled now- it can't be overbearing anymore, because it's so damaged and no longer the superpower. It might have to listen when the Gorn say "you're really arrogant sometimes, you know that?" And the Gorn are humbled in turn because they were perhaps too busy moaning about the messanger's faults to see that the message was the right one.

I think that's the main issue behind the Typhon Pact- these cultures can now see the Federation is right, but they still have issues as to how the Federation conducts itself in regards to other nations. Some of those concerns are understandable and justified, some aren't. For every Gorn with legitimate complaints about Federation arrogance, there's a Tholian who is just spiteful. Maybe some Tzenkethi have genuine concerns about Federation soft imperalism, while other Tzenkethi just believe the conspiracy theories about the eeeeevvvillll Federation. Some Breen might be thoughtful as to what the Federation has to offer as an ally to the Pact as well as an inspiration, while some other Breen might be gleefully insisting it's time to get aggressive and kick the Federation in the butt again.

I think overall the Pact needs to decide what exactly it is and how it's going to balance six major voices, themselves split between dozens of lesser perspectives, before it can make any move regarding the Federation- regardless of whether that move turns out to be an olive branch or a large stick (or neither).

I guess we have to wait and see, to trully find out the future of the Trek universe.

 

[BillJ]

The Romulan Star Empire had a history of aggressive imperialism up to the 22nd Century. Afterward the Earth-Romulan War, the Romulans locked themselves up behind the Neutral Zone for a century. When they re-emerged, it was with a history of cold war conflicts with the Federation and Klingon Empire (with at least one act of war on the Federation's part, where the Federation invaded Romulan space and stole a Romulan cloaking device).

Upon the Klingons signing the Khitomer Accords, tensions with the Romulans built up to the point of the Tomed Incident, at which point they once again retreated to behind the Neutral Zone for most of the 24th Century. Of the two confirmed instances of Romulan attacks during that period, one was the result of the Romulans being manipulated into thinking the Klingon colony at Khitomer was being used to develop a first strike WMD against them by the Cardassian Obsidian Order (The Lost Era: The Art of the Impossible).

Upon returning from their recluse, they once again adopted a stance of tension rather than outright aggression, and even allied with the Federation against the Dominion -- only to be rebuffed by the Federation when they asked them for help against the attacks of the Watraii (Vulcan's Soul).

Later, a Human assassinated most of the Senate, leaving the Star Empire in chaos. The Federation then chose to recognize the breakaway Imperial Romulan State (whose leader, honestly, has no less of a claim to power than Tal'Aura, given that both of them were in on Shinzon's coup).

So, all in all, while not a friend to the Federation, not exactly a Nazi army just lying in wait to capture Poland, either.

Kinda forgot that whole "coming across the border and destroying Federation outposts" thing from Balance of Terror.

 

[Daddy Todd]

Kinda forgot that whole "coming across the border and destroying Federation outposts" thing from Balance of Terror.

That was, what, 110+ YEARS before the Typhon Pact was formed. That's like saying the Japanese are not to be trusted because of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Remember the fall of the Soviet Union? That happened over, like, a weekend. They were the existential enemy of the entire Western World until we woke up one day and read in the morning papers that, suddenly, they didn't exist any more.

Political winds change; everything we think we know about politics among the Romulans based on TOS is completely null and void by the 2380's. Hell, everything we think we know about the political winds in the Romulan Empire based on Nemesis is pretty much out the window by 2381. So, not only do political winds change, they can change pretty damn fast when the players undergo profound stress. Which both the Federation and the RSE have in the last couple of years.

And that's a big reason why I'm looking forward to the Typhon Pact novels. Because I have absolutely no idea what to expect!

 

[Thrawn]

Kinda forgot that whole "coming across the border and destroying Federation outposts" thing from Balance of Terror.

That was, what, 130 YEARS before the Typhon Pact was formed. That's like saying the Japanese are not to be trusted because of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Remember the fall of the Soviet Union? That happened over, like, a weekend. They were the existential enemy of the entire Western World until we woke up one day and read in the morning papers that, suddenly, they didn't exist any more.

Political winds change; everything we think we know about politics among the Romulans based on TOS is completely null and void by the 2380's. Hell, everything we think we know about the political winds in the Romulan Empire based on Nemesis is pretty much out the window by 2381. So, not only do political winds change, they can change pretty damn fast when the players undergo profound stress. Which both the Federation and the RSE have in the last couple of years.

And that's a big reason why I'm looking forward to the Typhon Pact novels. Because I have absolutely no idea what to expect!

And this, to me, is what's so particularly amazing about the current direction of TrekLit. After Destiny, we genuinely have a whole new paradigm, one in which no one really has any idea what to expect. It's incredibly exciting as a reader to be able to even have a thread like this, where the argument under consideration is essentially what the entire alien population of near-Federation space will do next! Because we really have no idea. This story could go in a million directions.

So cool.

 

[Daddy Todd]

So cool.

Exactly!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Just a thought: That "110+" year ago Romulan incident? That may seem a lifetime ago to us, but not for Romulans, who have lifespans much longer then ours (I don't know their limits but I'm guessing it's a lot closer to Vulcan's 250-300 years then 24th century humans' 140-ish). There may still be bitter Romulans in high places who were friends with that first Romulan Commander.

There may be living witness Tholians still pissed that Jonathan Archer didn't hand over that time ship in 2152, or that Enterprise didn't piss off immediately after the Defiant warbled off to the mirror universe.

Humans appear to have shorter lifespans then the majority of Trek aliens. This Typhon Pact, although only publicized and revealed recently, may have been the life's work of Gorn, Romulan, Breen (how long to Breen live?), Kinshaya and Tholian ambassadors.