After the Destiny events, The Typhon Pact and future novels

[PrimeDirective]

Christopher, you seem to be under the impression that just because a group of worlds join together to form an alliance, that they have humanitarian and peaceful intentions in mind. Jus like "DBall" mentioned, most of the Typhon Pact members have a score to settle with the Federation or one if its allies. If this wasn't the case, then I'd be more inclined to agree with your assessment. The Typhon Pact's agenda goes beyond competition. Regarding the actions of the "competition", I don't recall any of the Pact members stopping their more aggressive members from going to war with anybody. They didn't do anything because they knew none of their members were strong enough to take any action against the Federation, or any of its allies.

 

[Sci]

Christopher, you seem to be under the impression that just because a group of worlds join together to form an alliance, that they have humanitarian and peaceful intentions in mind. Jus like "DBall" mentioned, most of the Typhon Pact members have a score to settle with the Federation or one if its allies. If this wasn't the case, then I'd be more inclined to agree with your assessment. The Typhon Pact's agenda goes beyond competition.

But that hasn't been established at all.

You're just playing into an ethnocentric stereotype that "Federation=Good" and "alien power=conquering warmongers." And it's not fair or accurate.

 

[PrimeDirective]

I'm not saying that the worlds in the Federation are pure, and those outside are bad. I'm just saying that most of the civilizations (i.e the Holy Order of the Kinshaya, the Romulan Star Empire, the Tholians) that joined the Typhon Pact have a violent and expantionistic past, that's highly unlikely to change. Regarding your comment about "Federation=good, aliens=bad", you are aware that there are hundreds of member worlds that are populated by non-terrans, right?

 

[Christopher]

Christopher, you seem to be under the impression that just because a group of worlds join together to form an alliance, that they have humanitarian and peaceful intentions in mind.

First of all, that's not even remotely what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they've taken the first tentative step in the direction of mutual cooperation. There's a big difference between taking the first step and completing the journey. They obviously have a long way to go, but their realization that mutual cooperation is in their best interests is a promising beginning, something that the Federation should nurture through diplomacy rather than undermining by adopting a paranoid response to the Pact's existence.

Second, I'm not just voicing an "impression." The people who have been developing the Typhon Pact storyline are colleagues of mine. I've talked with them about it, learned about the development process from the inside, even participated in it to a limited extent. This isn't just my opinion -- this is actual insider knowledge of the intent behind the Typhon Pact storyline. The whole idea is to explore a more complex, subtle political dynamic. The Pact is not meant to be just another caricatured warmongering villain. This has been explained time after time after time on this forum, not just by me but by authors even more directly involved with the process, including KRAD, who created the Pact.

Regarding the actions of the "competition", I don't recall any of the Pact members stopping their more aggressive members from going to war with anybody.

Then you must not have read A Singular Destiny. And if you didn't read that book, which is the tale that introduces and defines the Typhon Pact, then you really aren't qualified to form any opinions about the Pact's nature at all.

 

[pookha]

Regarding the actions of the "competition", I don't recall any of the Pact members stopping their more aggressive members from going to war with anybody.

Then you must not have read A Singular Destiny. And if you didn't read that book, which is the tale that introduces and defines the Typhon Pact, then you really aren't qualified to form any opinions about the Pact's nature at all.[/QUOTE]


uh ..
we can make some assumptions based on prior history of what was on screen.


the breen always seemed to be hostile toward the federation.
the tholians didnt hesitate to turn on a federation base and kill most of the people.
yeah sisko had a friend who was a tholian ambassador but often they seemed erratic and willing to bite at a moments notice.

there have been a lot of powers through history with dubious aspirations who joined together.

 

[Sci]

I'm not saying that the worlds in the Federation are pure, and those outside are bad. I'm just saying that most of the civilizations (i.e the Holy Order of the Kinshaya, the Romulan Star Empire, the Tholians) that joined the Typhon Pact have a violent and expantionistic past,

Let's look at the Typhon Pact members:

* The Romulan Star Empire
* The Tholian Assembly
* The Holy Order of the Kinshaya
* The Gorn Hegemony
* The Breen Confederacy
* The Tzenkethi Coalition

Let's look at each.

The Romulan Star Empire had a history of aggressive imperialism up to the 22nd Century. Afterward the Earth-Romulan War, the Romulans locked themselves up behind the Neutral Zone for a century. When they re-emerged, it was with a history of cold war conflicts with the Federation and Klingon Empire (with at least one act of war on the Federation's part, where the Federation invaded Romulan space and stole a Romulan cloaking device).

Upon the Klingons signing the Khitomer Accords, tensions with the Romulans built up to the point of the Tomed Incident, at which point they once again retreated to behind the Neutral Zone for most of the 24th Century. Of the two confirmed instances of Romulan attacks during that period, one was the result of the Romulans being manipulated into thinking the Klingon colony at Khitomer was being used to develop a first strike WMD against them by the Cardassian Obsidian Order (The Lost Era: The Art of the Impossible).

Upon returning from their recluse, they once again adopted a stance of tension rather than outright aggression, and even allied with the Federation against the Dominion -- only to be rebuffed by the Federation when they asked them for help against the attacks of the Watraii (Vulcan's Soul).

Later, a Human assassinated most of the Senate, leaving the Star Empire in chaos. The Federation then chose to recognize the breakaway Imperial Romulan State (whose leader, honestly, has no less of a claim to power than Tal'Aura, given that both of them were in on Shinzon's coup).

So, all in all, while not a friend to the Federation, not exactly a Nazi army just lying in wait to capture Poland, either.

Tholian Assembly? Desperately tried to stop the Federation from reviving their former slavemasters, the Shedai, and regard the Federation's general refusal to acknowledge the dangers of the creatures they were awakening to constitute an act of wanton irresponsibility and aggression. When they talk about Federation crimes in the Taurus Reach, not even the Federation President contests that the Federation committed crimes against the Tholians. Since the 23rd Century, the Tholians have largely stayed behind their borders, though Bacco was convinced they'd take advantage of the Borg Crisis to annex some systems. I'd classify them as a moderately imperialistic power. I doubt they're out for galactic conquest, but it seems reasonable to presume they probably want more territory as a buffer zone if nothing else.

Breen Confederacy? Long history of extreme isolationism apart from participation in the Dominion War; unknown status of the Breen government that allied with the Dominion. Hard to predict them.

Kinshaya? Hostile, but hostile to the Klingons more than anyone else.

Tzenkethi? They seem to be highly xenophobic and anti-Federation, but we don't known under what circumstances the Federation-Tzenkethi war was started or for what reasons. There's no evidence of imperial ambitions, though they did try to open greater trade relations at one point with a Federation Member State, Nasat.

Gorn Hegemony? Only two Federation-Gorn conflicts. One was the result of interstellar miscommunication -- the Federation thought it had settled on an unclaimed world in Cestus III, and the Gorn thought the Federation was invading. This conflict was later resolved and the Gorn willingly gave up Cestus III. The only other incident was a result of a rogue faction temporarily gaining power -- a faction that was later stopped with Federation help. The present Gorn Imperator owes his position to the Federation. No evidence whatsoever of imperialistic tendencies on the part of the Gorn government.

that's highly unlikely to change. Regarding your comment about "Federation=good, aliens=bad", you are aware that there are hundreds of member worlds that are populated by non-terrans, right?

I assumed that in context, it was understood that "aliens" meant "non-Federation," not "non-Human."

 

[PrimeDirective]

I have read A Singular Destiny, so I am entitled to an opinion on the topic. Regarding the "insider knowledge" that you claim to have, until we actually see proof that what you say is true, we will remain justifiably suspicious.

 

[Turtletrekker]

^Define "we". I happily take Christopher at his word here, certainly over you and your specuations.

 

[Sci]

I have read A Singular Destiny

Then you cannot contradict the idea that the Typhon Pact's first official action was stopping two of its members' aggressions, as that is exactly what happens in A Singular Destiny.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Federation isn't forcing the Klingon Empire or anybody else, to adopt or change who they are;

I never said they were forcing anybody. As I've said from the start, they seek to persuade people to adopt their beliefs, not force them.

But make no mistake: They engage in a systematic campaign to persuade everyone they encounter to adopt their beliefs.

And they have every right to do so, IMHO.

In a very real sense, *everybody* does that. In the end, what is a political debate or argument, if not an attempt to persuade the other party to change their beliefs to more closely resemble your own? The very essence of the process is to convince your opponent that you're right and they're wrong. So why is the Federation on the hot seat for doing the same thing? As long as worlds are free to reject Federation membership, which has always been the case, then I can't see the problem here.

And about that last bit: We'll see how the Typhon Pact treats worlds that walk away from IT, eh?

 

[Dayton Ward]

It's worth noting that Bacco's last meeting with the Tholian ambassador at the end of A Singular Destiny was anything but cordial. When asked point-blank by Bacco why the Tholian Assembly joined the Pact:

Ambassador Tezrene: "The alternative was to be surrounded by a heavily armed hostile power. Instead, by joining the Typhon Pact, we assure that you are the one surrounded by a heavily armed hostile power. I suggest you get used to it."

So, it's not all hunky dory.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Excellent point. Although how much of that is a genuine Tholian desire to hurt the Federation, and how much is just Tezrene being a jackass, is open to interpretation...

 

[PrimeDirective]

I'm not saying that the worlds in the Federation are pure, and those outside are bad. I'm just saying that most of the civilizations (i.e the Holy Order of the Kinshaya, the Romulan Star Empire, the Tholians) that joined the Typhon Pact have a violent and expantionistic past,

Let's look at the Typhon Pact members:

* The Romulan Star Empire
* The Tholian Assembly
* The Holy Order of the Kinshaya
* The Gorn Hegemony
* The Breen Confederacy
* The Tzenkethi Coalition

Let's look at each.

The Romulan Star Empire had a history of aggressive imperialism up to the 22nd Century. Afterward the Earth-Romulan War, the Romulans locked themselves up behind the Neutral Zone for a century. When they re-emerged, it was with a history of cold war conflicts with the Federation and Klingon Empire (with at least one act of war on the Federation's part, where the Federation invaded Romulan space and stole a Romulan cloaking device).

Upon the Klingons signing the Khitomer Accords, tensions with the Romulans built up to the point of the Tomed Incident, at which point they once again retreated to behind the Neutral Zone for most of the 24th Century. Of the two confirmed instances of Romulan attacks during that period, one was the result of the Romulans being manipulated into thinking the Klingon colony at Khitomer was being used to develop a first strike WMD against them by the Cardassian Obsidian Order (The Lost Era: The Art of the Impossible).

Upon returning from their recluse, they once again adopted a stance of tension rather than outright aggression, and even allied with the Federation against the Dominion -- only to be rebuffed by the Federation when they asked them for help against the attacks of the Watraii (Vulcan's Soul).

Later, a Human assassinated most of the Senate, leaving the Star Empire in chaos. The Federation then chose to recognize the breakaway Imperial Romulan State (whose leader, honestly, has no less of a claim to power than Tal'Aura, given that both of them were in on Shinzon's coup).

So, all in all, while not a friend to the Federation, not exactly a Nazi army just lying in wait to capture Poland, either.

Tholian Assembly? Desperately tried to stop the Federation from reviving their former slavemasters, the Shedai, and regard the Federation's general refusal to acknowledge the dangers of the creatures they were awakening to constitute an act of wanton irresponsibility and aggression. When they talk about Federation crimes in the Taurus Reach, not even the Federation President contests that the Federation committed crimes against the Tholians. Since the 23rd Century, the Tholians have largely stayed behind their borders, though Bacco was convinced they'd take advantage of the Borg Crisis to annex some systems. I'd classify them as a moderately imperialistic power. I doubt they're out for galactic conquest, but it seems reasonable to presume they probably want more territory as a buffer zone if nothing else.

Breen Confederacy? Long history of extreme isolationism apart from participation in the Dominion War; unknown status of the Breen government that allied with the Dominion. Hard to predict them.

Kinshaya? Hostile, but hostile to the Klingons more than anyone else.

Tzenkethi? They seem to be highly xenophobic and anti-Federation, but we don't known under what circumstances the Federation-Tzenkethi war was started or for what reasons. There's no evidence of imperial ambitions, though they did try to open greater trade relations at one point with a Federation Member State, Nasat.

Gorn Hegemony? Only two Federation-Gorn conflicts. One was the result of interstellar miscommunication -- the Federation thought it had settled on an unclaimed world in Cestus III, and the Gorn thought the Federation was invading. This conflict was later resolved and the Gorn willingly gave up Cestus III. The only other incident was a result of a rogue faction temporarily gaining power -- a faction that was later stopped with Federation help. The present Gorn Imperator owes his position to the Federation. No evidence whatsoever of imperialistic tendencies on the part of the Gorn government.

that's highly unlikely to change. Regarding your comment about "Federation=good, aliens=bad", you are aware that there are hundreds of member worlds that are populated by non-terrans, right?

I assumed that in context, it was understood that "aliens" meant "non-Federation," not "non-Human."

PrimeDirective:
* Just because the Romulans, after they came out of a century-long seclusion, only had a few cold war-style skirmishes with the Federation, doesn't mean that they didn't want to escalate them into full-out war. You say the Romulans aren't a nazi-like army waiting for conflict, but they are like them. The Romulans just want to get rid of the Federation, so that they have one less enemy to worry about. An example of their evil intentions is the TNG episode where LaForge and the helmswoman of the Enterprise D are supposedly killed, but in reality are just phased out of existance so that the Romulans could take over the ship or destroy it(I'm not sure which). Another example of Romulan treachery is when a Romulan admiral pretended to want peace with the Federation, just so he could do something to harm the crew of the Enterprise-D, and by extension the Federation(come on, you take out the flagship of Starfleet and its legendary captain, the Federation is bound to respond with military action). Regarding the Romulan Imperial State with Donotra as empress, she actually does have a claim to power. Although she helped Shinzon rise to power, she later realized that what she had done was wrong and made amends by helping Captain Picard get rid of Shinzon and his army. She cemented her right to power by saying to Picard: " You have made a friend in the Empire, today. I hope the first of many." Another example of her empire's legitimacy, is that she decided to risk the lives of her people to help the Federation-led alliance fight the Borg when they invaded the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. I'd say that's a pretty solid sign of her intentions and good heart.

*The Tholians, although not as aggressive as the Romulans, aren't a nice and peaceful civilization. I say this because if they were as you say they are, they would've aided the Federation in whatever way they could. Did they do that? No. They instead decided to close themselves off from everybody, and only look out for themselves(that's pretty selfish in my opinion, and is enough to warrant suspicion of their intentions).

* The Breen's intentions are very suspicious because they allied with the Dominion and the Cardassians, in a conflict that claimed countless of Starfleet and allied lives. Why couldn't they see that they were on the side of a conflict, whose members only wanted to conquer and make the lives of the beings they conquered, miserable?

 

[PrimeDirective]

^Define "we". I happily take Christopher at his word here, certainly over you and your specuations.

By "we", I mean others like me who aren't very optimistic about the Typhon Pact's intentions towards not only the Federation, but other governments spread across the galaxy. Regarding my "speculations", they aren't that. They are statements based on the reading of novels, and the watching of the television series and movies.

 

[PrimeDirective]

The Federation isn't forcing the Klingon Empire or anybody else, to adopt or change who they are;

I never said they were forcing anybody. As I've said from the start, they seek to persuade people to adopt their beliefs, not force them.

But make no mistake: They engage in a systematic campaign to persuade everyone they encounter to adopt their beliefs.

And they have every right to do so, IMHO.

In a very real sense, *everybody* does that. In the end, what is a political debate or argument, if not an attempt to persuade the other party to change their beliefs to more closely resemble your own? The very essence of the process is to convince your opponent that you're right and they're wrong. So why is the Federation on the hot seat for doing the same thing? As long as worlds are free to reject Federation membership, which has always been the case, then I can't see the problem here.

And about that last bit: We'll see how the Typhon Pact treats worlds that walk away from IT, eh?

You make a very good point; both on the persuading others topic, and the Typhon Pact. With its membership consisting mostly of not-very-nice- civilizations( The Romulan Star Empire, the Tholians, and the Breen), I doubt they'll be as forgiving as the Federation regarding those that reject its invitation to join.

 

[Thrawn]

(For the record, posting three times in a row like that is frowned upon around here. Just edit earlier posts to add information.)

 

[PrimeDirective]

(For the record, posting three times in a row like that is frowned upon around here. Just edit earlier posts to add information.)

Thanks for the heads-up

 

[Sci]

The Federation isn't forcing the Klingon Empire or anybody else, to adopt or change who they are;

I never said they were forcing anybody. As I've said from the start, they seek to persuade people to adopt their beliefs, not force them.

But make no mistake: They engage in a systematic campaign to persuade everyone they encounter to adopt their beliefs.

And they have every right to do so, IMHO.

In a very real sense, *everybody* does that. In the end, what is a political debate or argument, if not an attempt to persuade the other party to change their beliefs to more closely resemble your own? The very essence of the process is to convince your opponent that you're right and they're wrong. So why is the Federation on the hot seat for doing the same thing? As long as worlds are free to reject Federation membership, which has always been the case, then I can't see the problem here.

There can be problems insofar as it carries the risk of alienating potential allies, but I never said it was a bad thing per se.

What I did say is that we shouldn't sugar-coat everything the Federation does and act as though it is by definition morally good. The Federation is culturally imperialist -- and maybe that is a good thing. Maybe it isn't. But it's important to be aware of a behavior pattern rather than sugar-coating it, irrelevant of its moral content.

ETA:

* Just because the Romulans, after they came out of a century-long seclusion, only had a few cold war-style skirmishes with the Federation, doesn't mean that they didn't want to escalate them into full-out war.

Actually, it does. Wanna know why?

Because if they wanted to escalate it into full-out war, they would have escalated it into full-out war.

You say the Romulans aren't a nazi-like army waiting for conflict, but they are like them.

Then why haven't we seen the Romulans invading the interstellar Sudetenland and demanding Czechoslovakia?

An example of their evil intentions is the TNG episode where LaForge and the helmswoman of the Enterprise D are supposedly killed, but in reality are just phased out of existance so that the Romulans could take over the ship or destroy it(I'm not sure which). Another example of Romulan treachery is when a Romulan admiral pretended to want peace with the Federation, just so he could do something to harm the crew of the Enterprise-D, and by extension the Federation(come on, you take out the flagship of Starfleet and its legendary captain, the Federation is bound to respond with military action).

Don't be silly. The various powers of the Alpha Quadrant destroy one-another's ships all the time without it being something that leads to war. It's brinksmanship and power plays and skirmishes, not warmongering.

Regarding the Romulan Imperial State with Donotra as empress, she actually does have a claim to power. Although she helped Shinzon rise to power, she later realized that what she had done was wrong and made amends by helping Captain Picard get rid of Shinzon and his army. She cemented her right to power by saying to Picard: " You have made a friend in the Empire, today. I hope the first of many."

So, being a friend of Picard's gives you the right to rule as an unelected dictator? Wow. I should try that some day!

Face it, Donatra has no more legitimacy than Tal'Aura. They're both unelected leaders who took advantage of political chaos to seize power without any sort of mandate from the Romulan people. The only difference between them is that Donatra's ingratiated herself with the Federation.

Another example of her empire's legitimacy, is that she decided to risk the lives of her people to help the Federation-led alliance fight the Borg when they invaded the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. I'd say that's a pretty solid sign of her intentions and good heart.

Or a sign that she was willing to fight with anyone should could when the Borg were coming for Archernar Prime. Or a sign that she wants on the Federation's good side to help solidify her power base.

Even if she does have good intentions and a good heart -- and I question whether or not someone who appoints herself absolute monarch (aka, hereditary dictator) can be said to have a good heart -- that's not the same thing as having a legitimate right to power.

*The Tholians, although not as aggressive as the Romulans,

Don't be silly; they're much worse. The Romulans weren't out to use the Borg Invasion as an excuse to annex Federation systems.

They instead decided to close themselves off from everybody, and only look out for themselves(that's pretty selfish in my opinion, and is enough to warrant suspicion of their intentions).

Dude, isolationism is not the same thing as imperialism.

* The Breen's intentions are very suspicious because they allied with the Dominion and the Cardassians, in a conflict that claimed countless of Starfleet and allied lives.

I agree. But their being suspicious is not the same thing as their having a history of imperialism -- their alliance in the Dominion War was a clear outlier from their isolationist history. I'm not saying they're NOT imperialists right now, I'm saying we don't know.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Second, I'm not just voicing an "impression." The people who have been developing the Typhon Pact storyline are colleagues of mine. I've talked with them about it, learned about the development process from the inside, even participated in it to a limited extent. This isn't just my opinion -- this is actual insider knowledge of the intent behind the Typhon Pact storyline. The whole idea is to explore a more complex, subtle political dynamic. The Pact is not meant to be just another caricatured warmongering villain. This has been explained time after time after time on this forum, not just by me but by authors even more directly involved with the process, including KRAD, who created the Pact.

Interesting.

Christopher, how do you reconcile your 'insider knowledge' with the info on the upcoming Typhon Pact books - which depict a full-fledged cold war between the Federation and the Pact?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Face it, Donatra has no more legitimacy than Tal'Aura. They're both unelected leaders who took advantage of political chaos to seize power without any sort of mandate from the Romulan people. The only difference between them is that Donatra's ingratiated herself with the Federation.

According to federation/democratic law, neither Tal'Aura nor Donatra are legitime leaders. More like military dictators.

I doubt the Romulan Star Empire is a democratic political structure, though.
Indeed, Star Trek:Nemesis implied that the Senate's support came from the military - meaning military dictatorship IS the legal form of government of the empire.

The difference between the Senate and Tal'Aura/Donatra is that the latter rule alone - they removed the aristocracy from power. An indication that this higher class lost much of its influence on the military?