Photonic torpedoes

[Crazy Eddie]

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/RestMass.html . I think you should read this, because it's going to prove that I am right

It actually does nothing of the sort. But we appreciate your enthusiasm.

It does. According to the page, if matter is traveling at a certain speed, it does have mass, so light is considered normal matter.

But "having mass" is not a defining property of "normal matter." Quarks have mass too, but a material composed entirely of quarks is NOT normal matter (physicists literally call this "strange matter" or "strangelet").

Anyway, the "relativistic mass" of light is just another way of expressing the rest energy of a hypothetical photon (which also depends on frequency, not just speed). That this is meant to be an abstraction describing an energy state cannot be overlooked, especially in the fact that photons do not have REAL mass in the way actual matter particles do. They may have more ENERGY than a particle, which can be converted into mass by some processes.

 

[Mytran]

What about colliding a photon with an anti-photon?

 

[Timo]

1) Starfleet didn't invent photon torpedoes, so using a Klingon standardization would make no sense

Why Klingon standardization? All I'm saying that the weapons stay the same from their first UE Starfleet appearance in 2152 to their latest 2370s UFP Starfleet appearances. Klingons probably have bigger and uglier torpedoes, and always have had, just because.

2) Despite your claims, torpedoes are NOT actually standardized, as many Russian designs use torpedo tubes of various sizes in order to support different types of cruise missiles and

The overwhelming commonality still is on 533 mm, which is perfectly fine for launching things like SS-N15. Indeed, the Kirov class battle cruisers use such standard torpedo tubes as the launchers for their cruise missiles, since it's so efficient in many respects. All western sub-to-sub or sub-to-land cruise missiles are also compatible with the 21in tube specifically.

3) Even torpedo tubes don't seem to be standardized, considering that the muzzle of the Galaxy's torpedo tube is large enough to enclose a small shuttlecraft

Yet the torpedoes clearly are of the exact same size and shape as the 22nd century originals, as seen for example in "In Theory".

Any argument for standardization becomes irrelevant, also, every time a torpedo tube is shown firing something OTHER than a photon torpedo (including probes, spatial torpedoes and phaser blasts).

Hmh? We have little idea whether Starfleet probes would differ in size from the standard torpedo. In "The Emissary", we see a probe that's identical to a torp; in a number of other TNG episodes, we see probes differing in shape but of undefined size; and in VOY, we see probes similar in shape to the TNG ones but definitely easily fitting inside the small, "standard" launch tubes of the ship.

Spatial torpedoes were never fired from photon torpedo tubes in ENT; photon torpedoes eventually were fired from (supposedly modified) spatial torpedo tubes. I get the point that Starfleet(s) sometimes use(s) ordnance that's smaller in diameter than the standard torp - but apparently only when a shape different from the standard "cricket" is crucial for the mission. This doesn't take away any of the advantages of having one casing that fits all yields, ranges and tracking modes of torpedo, in addition to being perfect for many types of probe, for burials in space, and no doubt other applications as well.

Unfortunately, even quantum torpedoes seen in "The Valiant" have the same casing as standard photon torpedoes.

And why would a q-torp require a triangular, red, or fluffy casing? What about q-torp-ness would make the weapon incompatible with the standard torpedo shape? These people may be building shuttlecraft the way we build cars, changing the exterior shape every decade or so simply because this sells better and attracts the chicks. But they apparently don't do anything quite as stupid with their torpedoes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

What about colliding a photon with an anti-photon?

There is no such thing.

Shining a light on antimatter would ordinarily net you exactly what you would expect, hotter antimatter.

 

[Mytran]

What about colliding a photon with an anti-photon?

There is no such thing.

Shining a light on antimatter would ordinarily net you exactly what you would expect, hotter antimatter.

No such thing? Come on, this is Star Trek!

Actually, my point was that in order to extract the energy from a photon in a manner analagous to the M/AM reaction, something like an anti-photon would be neccessary.
Does such a thing exist? That's up to the script writers

 

[Saquist]

To be sure, torpedoes in the real world have stayed the same externally for a century or more. There's a worldwide standardization to 533mm/21in caliber and counterrotating propellers that has worked very well and keeps on working. Additional "microtorps" have been introduced for ship, helicopter or coastal submarine use when the target is a submarine, but the 533mm torp remains the sole size and shape in antiship applications. Of course, the warhead no longer is TNT or even Torpex - there are advanced explosives, shaped charges, and nuclear tips. And the powerplant and guidance have changed several times, too.

There would be many advantages to standardizing the caliber like this in Star Trek, too. Why change that which works, when change would mean loss of compatibility?

Timo Saloniemi

The only difference I see between a photonic and photon torpedo, is that the photon torpedo is the result of advances in the understanding of how to harness power from an atom, the same with the quantum torpedo used in the 24th century. The more advanced the torpedo is, the deeper the source of power inside the atom is.

That's the real problem. there is NO change

They're the same size as torpedoes with not difference in shape. They glow and take out ships...

No change in 250 years of complex weapon making...absurd.

It would be absurd to assume that there were no major differences between Photonic and Photon torpedoes.

Timo for example makes an excellent point in this retrospect.

At the same time, I do not think that SF would continue to use the outer casing of a torpedo for much longer.
The quantum torpedo might shift things into a different direction, and we have no idea how Tri-Cobalt devices look like for example, or Romulan Plasma torpedoes.

Lets find out how absurd that is.

Wiki Research
The Early torpedo: Spar Torpedo 1860's
It was basically a Bomb at the end of a lance. 30'ft long

-First Self Propelled: 1866
Range 910 meters: Speed. 11 kph
Powered: Compressed Air
Ordinance: Single Charge of Gun Cotton

-1890 Whitehead Series
Largest 18": dia 19 ft long
Powered: 3 cyliner Compressed Air Engine
Ordinance: 200 lb Gun Cotton Warhead

-1894 Whitehead Series-Bliss Leavit
larger than 18" dia
Powered: Turbine Engine


-Mark 10 torpedo

-Mark 14 torpedo 1931
21" dia 20'- 6" long
Range 4.1 Km Speed: 85 kph
Powered: Wet-heater combustion / steam turbine with Methanol fuel
compressed air tank
Ordinance: 638 lbs of Torpex

-Mark 15 torpedo 1938-1956
Diameter: 21 in
Length: 24 ft
Range: 5,500 meters at 83 km/h)
Powered: Wet-heater combustion / steam turbine with Methanol fuel
Ordinance: Warhead: 825 lb (375 kg) of Torpex
Lighter than mark 14

Mark 16 torpedo (Standard for 20 years)
Powered: hydrogen-peroxide-propelled
Dia: 21-inch (53-cm) 20' 6" Long
Weight: 2 tons (1800 kg).[1]
Ordiance: 732 pounds (333 kg) of explosive

Mark 17 Torpedo 1943-1975
21" dia 24 ft long
Powered: Turbine
Range 16.45 Kilometers Speed: 85.19 kph
Ordinance 879.5 pounds HBX

Mark 18 Torpedo 1943-1950

Dia 21" 20 ft Long
Powered: Electric Motor
Range 4,000 yards , Speed 53 kph
Ordinance:

Skip to Mark 48 Torpedo 1971 TO PRESENT
Dia: 21" Length 19 Ft.
Range Classified Speed Classified
Powered: Positive displacement piston-type engine
------

Okay in reality these weapons look very different from one another. None of them are more than 21" Diameter. (likely to fit the tube standard in American Subs) and like I spoke of before in the other thread this concept lends credence to Spock's word where space is an issue.

Note the difference between the Photonic torpedo and the Photon Torpedo. The casings are exactly the same except for the change in color.

I think you guys are really good at understatement.

Link to the images of US Torpedoes
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/jolie/index.htm

 

[C.E. Evans]

What about colliding a photon with an anti-photon?

There is no such thing.

Shining a light on antimatter would ordinarily net you exactly what you would expect, hotter antimatter.

I've always thought that the term "photon torpedo" was just a moniker for a torpedo that could travel at the speed of a photon (if not faster) or that it looked a particle of light when fired. I never thought that its warhead actually consisted of photons (as a kid, I thought it was a pretty lame weapon if it did).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What about colliding a photon with an anti-photon?

There's no such thing as an antiphoton. The closest thing you could get to that is a photon with a ninety degree phase shift, the result of which is both of them cancel each other out and become nothing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What about colliding a photon with an anti-photon?

There is no such thing.

Shining a light on antimatter would ordinarily net you exactly what you would expect, hotter antimatter.

I've always thought that the term "photon torpedo" was just a moniker for a torpedo that could travel at the speed of a photon (if not faster) or that it looked a particle of light when fired. I never thought that its warhead actually consisted of photons (as a kid, I thought it was a pretty lame weapon if it did).

Actually, I think "photon" is a moniker devoid of any meaning at all. Sort of like "Exocet" or "Harpoon." There are about a dozen different versions of the Exocet, all of which happen to be called "Exocets," especially when the captain orders them to be fired. That might also explain why photon torpedo casings never seem to change; they're different improved models of the same basic weapon over the course of 200 years.

OTOH, I'm one of those dickheads who thinks the ENT timeline is the progenitor of the Abramsverse, in which case Quantum torpedoes will probably replace Photons by the 2270s (Starfleet having developed the technology a hundred years earlier than expected).

 

[PrimeDirective]

There is no such thing.

Shining a light on antimatter would ordinarily net you exactly what you would expect, hotter antimatter.

I've always thought that the term "photon torpedo" was just a moniker for a torpedo that could travel at the speed of a photon (if not faster) or that it looked a particle of light when fired. I never thought that its warhead actually consisted of photons (as a kid, I thought it was a pretty lame weapon if it did).

Actually, I think "photon" is a moniker devoid of any meaning at all. Sort of like "Exocet" or "Harpoon." There are about a dozen different versions of the Exocet, all of which happen to be called "Exocets," especially when the captain orders them to be fired. That might also explain why photon torpedo casings never seem to change; they're different improved models of the same basic weapon over the course of 200 years.

OTOH, I'm one of those dickheads who thinks the ENT timeline is the progenitor of the Abramsverse, in which case Quantum torpedoes will probably replace Photons by the 2270s (Starfleet having developed the technology a hundred years earlier than expected).

Can you please explain why you think that Quantum torpedoes are going to be used in the 23rd century instead of the 24th century, where the technology and understanding of antimatter exist to create such a weapon? Where does it say that Starfleet created said technology, 100 years earlier than expected?

 

[Deks]

In the Abramverse, it's possible that quantum torpedoes might be used earlier than what we saw in the regular time-line.
But not 100 years before their time ... 25, up to maybe 50 years earlier might be a good time-frame.

The advancement of technology in Abramverse was accelerated due to Nero's interference.
Regardless of the fact if SF got a good look at the Narada or not, it provided SF with incentive to bring new technologies forward faster taking into consideration the threat it presented.
Of course, SF would be idiotic not to take into account the premise that numerous alien cultures in the 23rd century would be more advanced than the Federation.
Look at how the Borg invasion and Dominion war changed the Federation's mindset regarding new techs (ultimately some idiotic mistakes were made on part of the writers of course ... but ultimately, progress did happen).

Plus, Spock prime is also there.
We do not know how much he will divulge to SF to begin with, and with all changes that happened already, the timeline in which he's now will be different than the prime one.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I've always thought that the term "photon torpedo" was just a moniker for a torpedo that could travel at the speed of a photon (if not faster) or that it looked a particle of light when fired. I never thought that its warhead actually consisted of photons (as a kid, I thought it was a pretty lame weapon if it did).

Actually, I think "photon" is a moniker devoid of any meaning at all. Sort of like "Exocet" or "Harpoon." There are about a dozen different versions of the Exocet, all of which happen to be called "Exocets," especially when the captain orders them to be fired. That might also explain why photon torpedo casings never seem to change; they're different improved models of the same basic weapon over the course of 200 years.

OTOH, I'm one of those dickheads who thinks the ENT timeline is the progenitor of the Abramsverse, in which case Quantum torpedoes will probably replace Photons by the 2270s (Starfleet having developed the technology a hundred years earlier than expected).

Can you please explain why you think that Quantum torpedoes are going to be used in the 23rd century instead of the 24th century, where the technology and understanding of antimatter exist to create such a weapon?

For all we know, Quantum torpedoes are actually a 22nd century weapon that was returned to service when the Treaty of Algernon lapsed (sort of like cloaking devices, another technology Starfleet refrained from using for well over a century). There's also the fact that by STXI, Starfleet has been using photon torpedoes for a hundred years; what makes you think they DON'T have the technology?

Where does it say that Starfleet created said technology, 100 years earlier than expected?

Because alot of crucial things apparently happened 100 years earlier than expected, phasers and cloaking devices being the most obvious examples.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In the Abramverse, it's possible that quantum torpedoes might be used earlier than what we saw in the regular time-line.
But not 100 years before their time ... 25, up to maybe 50 years earlier might be a good time-frame.

The advancement of technology in Abramverse was accelerated due to Nero's interference.

Actually, I'm convinced the Abramverse is an offshoot of the ENT timeline and is itself a consequence of the Temporal Cold War.

 

[PrimeDirective]

Actually, I think "photon" is a moniker devoid of any meaning at all. Sort of like "Exocet" or "Harpoon." There are about a dozen different versions of the Exocet, all of which happen to be called "Exocets," especially when the captain orders them to be fired. That might also explain why photon torpedo casings never seem to change; they're different improved models of the same basic weapon over the course of 200 years.

OTOH, I'm one of those dickheads who thinks the ENT timeline is the progenitor of the Abramsverse, in which case Quantum torpedoes will probably replace Photons by the 2270s (Starfleet having developed the technology a hundred years earlier than expected).

Can you please explain why you think that Quantum torpedoes are going to be used in the 23rd century instead of the 24th century, where the technology and understanding of antimatter exist to create such a weapon?

For all we know, Quantum torpedoes are actually a 22nd century weapon that was returned to service when the Treaty of Algernon lapsed (sort of like cloaking devices, another technology Starfleet refrained from using for well over a century). There's also the fact that by STXI, Starfleet has been using photon torpedoes for a hundred years; what makes you think they DON'T have the technology?

Where does it say that Starfleet created said technology, 100 years earlier than expected?

Because alot of crucial things apparently happened 100 years earlier than expected, phasers and cloaking devices being the most obvious examples.

Starfleet could've been upgrading the photon torpedo, making minor changes to its design and destructive power, until they designed the quantum torpedo.

 

[blssdwlf]

In the Abramverse, it's possible that quantum torpedoes might be used earlier than what we saw in the regular time-line.
But not 100 years before their time ... 25, up to maybe 50 years earlier might be a good time-frame.

The advancement of technology in Abramverse was accelerated due to Nero's interference.

Actually, I'm convinced the Abramverse is an offshoot of the ENT timeline and is itself a consequence of the Temporal Cold War.

I'd also argue that the unaltered Abramverse was already accelerated and is simply another alternate universe. There are things that are happening that are already pretty advanced for their time before Nero shows up.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Can you please explain why you think that Quantum torpedoes are going to be used in the 23rd century instead of the 24th century, where the technology and understanding of antimatter exist to create such a weapon?

For all we know, Quantum torpedoes are actually a 22nd century weapon that was returned to service when the Treaty of Algernon lapsed (sort of like cloaking devices, another technology Starfleet refrained from using for well over a century). There's also the fact that by STXI, Starfleet has been using photon torpedoes for a hundred years; what makes you think they DON'T have the technology?

Where does it say that Starfleet created said technology, 100 years earlier than expected?

Because alot of crucial things apparently happened 100 years earlier than expected, phasers and cloaking devices being the most obvious examples.

Starfleet could've been upgrading the photon torpedo, making minor changes to its design and destructive power, until they designed the quantum torpedo.

Sure. Or they could have developed the quantum torpedo at the end of the Earth-Romulan War and been barred from using it because of the neutral zone treaty.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In the Abramverse, it's possible that quantum torpedoes might be used earlier than what we saw in the regular time-line.
But not 100 years before their time ... 25, up to maybe 50 years earlier might be a good time-frame.

The advancement of technology in Abramverse was accelerated due to Nero's interference.

Actually, I'm convinced the Abramverse is an offshoot of the ENT timeline and is itself a consequence of the Temporal Cold War.

I'd also argue that the unaltered Abramverse was already accelerated and is simply another alternate universe. There are things that are happening that are already pretty advanced for their time before Nero shows up.

I thought so too. That's why I think the two timelines probably diverged during First Contact: drunken Deanna probably dropped her tricorder under the barstool for somebody to find a week after Enterprise left.

Lilly's time spent on the Enterprise can't be overlooked either. If she was as good an engineer as she seemed to be, her insights on starship design probably set Earth Starfleet ahead of the game by at least half a century.

 

[Saquist]

I think that's a bit presumptuous.
Lilly would have to have seen ...one...engineering concept marvel on the ship (designs) that would change everything and I don't know if that ever happened. Observing technology is so very different from knowing how it works.

I think with all the Star Fleet engineers on Earth at the wrong time that's where I think the leak occurred...Barclay especially.

 

[blssdwlf]

I think that's a bit presumptuous.
Lilly would have to have seen ...one...engineering concept marvel on the ship (designs) that would change everything and I don't know if that ever happened. Observing technology is so very different from knowing how it works.

I think with all the Star Fleet engineers on Earth at the wrong time that's where I think the leak occurred...Barclay especially.

LOL - Barclay! However, even if Lilly got zero technical information she got inspiration as the very existence of the Enterprise-E and what she seen it can do would affirm to her a certain course of development that will work in the future... In a way, it could influence Lilly and her students/apprentices/team/etc that certain technologies should be concentrated on rather than wasting time on alot of trial-and-error technology and dead ends if they didn't know any better.

 

[Saquist]

You could see a transporter work but unless you have the specs you'll be no closer to actually making it work. That's just one example.

I think Barclay may explain how the Enterprise has impulse and warp technology aswell as transporter tech.

Many people don't think about it in these terms but the NX should never have had both warp and impulse. Warp drive is nothing more than a set of coils emitting a spatial field powered by plasma. Fusion could power warp, impulse could power warp (what ever it is)