Exactly - but you'll know not to spend your resources on developing meta-quadporter (example) technology when you know for sure transporter tech will work. Rather than 100 years to randomly hit upon a working transporter because all the engineering teams are spread out on different work, you do it in 30 because everybody focused on something they knew would work because they saw it in the future (to detail out my example.) I'm not saying that's how it went down, but it could be an influencing factor in the alteration of a timeline. In your example, Barclay could've left behind even more tidbits for say, Lilly to followup on.
Photonic torpedoes
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Exactly - but you'll know not to spend your resources on developing meta-quadporter (example) technology when you know for sure transporter tech will work. Rather than 100 years to randomly hit upon a working transporter because all the engineering teams are spread out on different work, you do it in 30 because everybody focused on something they knew would work because they saw it in the future (to detail out my example.) I'm not saying that's how it went down, but it could be an influencing factor in the alteration of a timeline. In your example, Barclay could've left behind even more tidbits for say, Lilly to followup on.
But inspiration goes a long way, especially once you've had a good look at what sort of designs are being used by a more advanced civilization and what sort of techniques are going to be effective.
For example: because of the Jeffries tube scene, Lilly now knows that it's possible to construct "forcefields" that can hold back atmosphere. She also knows that directed energy weapons called "phasers" will be in use that have variable power settings. If she's been listening to some of Picard's technobabble, she knows about turbolifts and has a very good idea about how the ship's internal structure is laid out.
That isn't enough to actually plagiarize the Enterprise-E's design (obviously) but for someone with decent engineering skills it's enough to sit around in a lab for a couple of decades and figure out how to make it work yourself. Arguably, some of that inspiration found its way into the designs for the NX-class and its predecessors, which would go a long way to explaining why Starfleet ships look the way they do in the 22nd century.
That too. But again, being a raging alcoholic and occasional slacker I'm a little dubious as to how much influence Cochrane really had on future designs. Other engineers--Lilly included--probably co-opted his THEORIES, but I doubt he did much actual work himself.
Or, as I have sometimes theorized, he or probably Deanna might have dropped a tricorder while puking up a gutfull of Tequila in the bar's bathroom.
Time Travel+Tequila=Time Corruption
Or ya know, what would've prevented those Vulcan explorers from picking up a dropped communicator or tricorder and examining the tech for themselves? There sensors might've picked up those trinkets while they were on the ground...
^ This is something I actually take issue with.
It seems to me the human attitude of "Why are you holding back technology from us?!" is massively immature and a little degrading. The Vulcans have no obligation whatsoever to share ANYTHING with Earth, and yet rather than be thankful for the help they have received, we get Archer's antipathy and scorn despite the fact that from day one he gives no indication that he has any idea what the hell is going on outside of his own little planet.
The very idea that the Vulcans "withheld" anything is reflected in massive human arrogance that the Vulcans were supposed to give them anything in the first place. I mean, it's not as if the Vulcans invaded Earth and bombed our infrastructure in an ill-concieved shock-and-awe campaign and then wasted a trillion bars of latinum on failed no-bid contracts to Sarek Brown and Root that botched the reconstruction; they literally landed on Earth right after we were finished nuking ourselves halfway into oblivion, so from where comes this "You didn't give us enough!" attitude?
It seems to me the human attitude of "Why are you holding back technology from us?!" is massively immature and a little degrading. The Vulcans have no obligation whatsoever to share ANYTHING with Earth, and yet rather than be thankful for the help they have received, we get Archer's antipathy and scorn despite the fact that from day one he gives no indication that he has any idea what the hell is going on outside of his own little planet.
The very idea that the Vulcans "withheld" anything is reflected in massive human arrogance that the Vulcans were supposed to give them anything in the first place. I mean, it's not as if the Vulcans invaded Earth and bombed our infrastructure in an ill-concieved shock-and-awe campaign and then wasted a trillion bars of latinum on failed no-bid contracts to Sarek Brown and Root that botched the reconstruction; they literally landed on Earth right after we were finished nuking ourselves halfway into oblivion, so from where comes this "You didn't give us enough!" attitude?
It seems the Archers had factual reasons for thinking the Vulcans were holding something back, though.
Archer Sr was developing a warp drive that would be on par with the local norm. He probably had a good idea of the local norm, too. And since he had to develop an indigenous drive, it's more or less a given that cultures with good warp drives aren't in the habit of donating their secrets to others. What Archer would quite justifiably argue is that even if the Rigelians didn't want to sell certain secrets, or asked for a very high price, Vulcans might be expected to be more willing to sell or to lower the price due to them being friends.
That is, the definition of friend would be the willingness to help. "Holding back" would merely be a synonym for "being unfriendly". Nobody is "obligated" to be friendly, either by outside forces or by internal reasons, but if you aren't friendly, you are of course considered hostile to some degree.
It does seem that a prerequisite for interacting with the interstellar community is a good warp drive. Sublight cultures only get scraps, and indeed are excommunicated by the more enlightened species. Low-warp cultures don't get no respect. So providing an upstart culture with credible medium-warp warships is an important form of civic aid, more or less comparable to educating females or installing communications infrastructure or plumbing on today's Earth... It's basic empowerment, not military aid. (Well, not just military aid...)
Timo Saloniemi
Archer Sr was developing a warp drive that would be on par with the local norm. He probably had a good idea of the local norm, too. And since he had to develop an indigenous drive, it's more or less a given that cultures with good warp drives aren't in the habit of donating their secrets to others. What Archer would quite justifiably argue is that even if the Rigelians didn't want to sell certain secrets, or asked for a very high price, Vulcans might be expected to be more willing to sell or to lower the price due to them being friends.
That is, the definition of friend would be the willingness to help. "Holding back" would merely be a synonym for "being unfriendly". Nobody is "obligated" to be friendly, either by outside forces or by internal reasons, but if you aren't friendly, you are of course considered hostile to some degree.
It does seem that a prerequisite for interacting with the interstellar community is a good warp drive. Sublight cultures only get scraps, and indeed are excommunicated by the more enlightened species. Low-warp cultures don't get no respect. So providing an upstart culture with credible medium-warp warships is an important form of civic aid, more or less comparable to educating females or installing communications infrastructure or plumbing on today's Earth... It's basic empowerment, not military aid. (Well, not just military aid...)
Timo Saloniemi
Fair enough; I didn't make it clear that my somewhat flippant comment was meant to be from the POV of ENT's humans.
Except for the quote - that was Yoda
And I'll have to stop you right there, since from the very first episode it's clear that the Warp Five engine was still inferior to standard Vulcan designs, and for that matter not quite up to spec to Andorian and Tellarite designs. The issue enunciated in Broken Bow was Jon's opinion that humans would have ALREADY passed warp five--without an indigenous engine--if the Vulcans hadn't "held back" certain technologies from humans. Since this is a sentiment that is apparently widely shared, it indicates that either humans didn't have their shit together to try and barter with someone else for better designs (which I frankly doubt) or that certain humans at the time were expecting a handout that the Vulcans were unwilling to give (or, more likely, that humans were unable to afford).
No, it's nothing anywhere near as basic as that. It would be, basically, akin to the Iraqi government asking the United States provide them with the technology to build a spaceport and a three-stage HLV capable of landing a spacecraft on the moon. Sure, a space program would raise their profile, it would earn them alot more respect, it would probably constitute a substantial investment in their scientific infrastructure... yet even for the country that ruined them in the first place, that's a patently silly request. It'd be a like a teenager telling his high school guidance counselor "It would be easier for me to get a job if you would just buy me a ferrari like I asked."
In Enterprise, it was firmly established that the Vulcans held back the Warp-5 program for a long time because in their opinion, Humans were not ready to join the interstellar community.
Earth was developing it's own technology at a fast pace, but the Vulcans were using their influence to slow things down because of the aforementioned reasons ... and Archer's 'whining' was for the most part justified because the Vulcans DID slow down progression of Earth's advancement.
They also worked with Humans when it came to numerous technologies, but promptly held back numerous findings (which they might have done for example by having access to R&D sections and suppressing/hiding some aspects in a minute fashion that piled up over time).
If the NX-01 was launched at the time when Archer's father wanted to launch it, it's quite possible that by 2351 (the time when Jonathan Archer took command of the NX-01) SF would be technologically on par with the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites at least as far as Warp technology is concerned (plus other technologies as well).
Earth was developing it's own technology at a fast pace, but the Vulcans were using their influence to slow things down because of the aforementioned reasons ... and Archer's 'whining' was for the most part justified because the Vulcans DID slow down progression of Earth's advancement.
They also worked with Humans when it came to numerous technologies, but promptly held back numerous findings (which they might have done for example by having access to R&D sections and suppressing/hiding some aspects in a minute fashion that piled up over time).
If the NX-01 was launched at the time when Archer's father wanted to launch it, it's quite possible that by 2351 (the time when Jonathan Archer took command of the NX-01) SF would be technologically on par with the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites at least as far as Warp technology is concerned (plus other technologies as well).
Which is the other issue I have. How would the Vulcans have the power to ACTIVELY interfere with the Warp Five program in any way shape or form unless humans depended on their contributions in order to continue? Even the issue of canceling Archer's mission, it was never fully explained why the Vulcan High Command had more say in the matter than Starfleet's own staffers. Unless the Vulcans were, like, majority shareholders or something, their opinions would come as the advice of a foreign government, but they would not have the ability to veto Starfleet's decisions as directly as they (nearly) did.
Which, again, implies that the Vulcans must have been integral to the R&D effort in some way. Unless you're suggesting that they snuck into Starfleet R&D and sabotaged their research to intentionally slow them down...
By their own efforts or with the Vulcan help they felt they deserved? That's the only part I wonder about; if they would have done it on their own, then they'd have no reason to maintain relations with the Vulcans in the first place and every reason to say "Screw the vulcans, we'll go it alone." If, on the other hand, they were still dependent on the Vulcans, then it's a case of them being bitter for not getting all the help they wanted when they felt they needed it.
That's where immaturity comes in that I mentioned. If humans could have done it WITHOUT the Vulcans, they would have. If humans still needed the Vulcans to develop technologically, then their complaining about their "interference" is childish and silly.
The thing is, it's possible the opinions of Vulcan High Command carried A LOT of weight with Human officials due to several reasons:
Vulcans show up a few years after WW III, proving that aliens exist.
Humanity cleans up it's act and Vulcans take it upon themselves to 'guide' Humanity on their way to joining the interstellar community (they ended up with numerous embassies on Earth and carried a big influence with the officials - after all, they were much more advanced in contrast to Humans).
I don't think that Humans felt Vulcans owed them anything in terms of technological research ... Archer was likely talking about Vulcans intentionally impeding Humanity's progress.
The Vulcans could have been integral to R&D in a way that Humans might have tried to run down some testing results and experiments by Vulcan scientists for verification and then being given support from them that would show Human officials the experiments can proceed (Vulcan scientists could have intentionally lied about some research - they generally do not lie, but will do so if ordered).
We've seen what they did when Archer was recalling the testing of breaking the Warp 2 barrier with NX-Alpha (which was destroyed) and NX-Beta.
Humans caved in under Vulcans decision to not go ahead with the experiment until further (extensive and lengthy) tests were conducted.
Humans probably decided to go ahead and keep Vulcans as allies because some officials knew that the Galaxy contained unknowns ... and having Vulcan support in this matter was a good thing ... so, in keeping up good relations with the Vulcans, they decided to take their opinions for granted (well, not ALWAYS ... but most of the time).
Incidents of experiments being carried out despite the Vulcans protesting probably resulted in how fast Humanity developed to the point as it was depicted in the show.
It was enough to bring them close enough on technological standing where they can hold out on their own.
By 2361, Warp 7 ships were being constructed by SF on a regular basis (and this warp factor seemed to have been a standard at the time that didn't change until Humans stepped into the picture and broke the stagnation once the UFP was founded - which brought forward ALL scientific knowledge of the founding members and those who would join up).
Vulcans show up a few years after WW III, proving that aliens exist.
Humanity cleans up it's act and Vulcans take it upon themselves to 'guide' Humanity on their way to joining the interstellar community (they ended up with numerous embassies on Earth and carried a big influence with the officials - after all, they were much more advanced in contrast to Humans).
I don't think that Humans felt Vulcans owed them anything in terms of technological research ... Archer was likely talking about Vulcans intentionally impeding Humanity's progress.
The Vulcans could have been integral to R&D in a way that Humans might have tried to run down some testing results and experiments by Vulcan scientists for verification and then being given support from them that would show Human officials the experiments can proceed (Vulcan scientists could have intentionally lied about some research - they generally do not lie, but will do so if ordered).
We've seen what they did when Archer was recalling the testing of breaking the Warp 2 barrier with NX-Alpha (which was destroyed) and NX-Beta.
Humans caved in under Vulcans decision to not go ahead with the experiment until further (extensive and lengthy) tests were conducted.
Humans probably decided to go ahead and keep Vulcans as allies because some officials knew that the Galaxy contained unknowns ... and having Vulcan support in this matter was a good thing ... so, in keeping up good relations with the Vulcans, they decided to take their opinions for granted (well, not ALWAYS ... but most of the time).
Incidents of experiments being carried out despite the Vulcans protesting probably resulted in how fast Humanity developed to the point as it was depicted in the show.
It was enough to bring them close enough on technological standing where they can hold out on their own.
By 2361, Warp 7 ships were being constructed by SF on a regular basis (and this warp factor seemed to have been a standard at the time that didn't change until Humans stepped into the picture and broke the stagnation once the UFP was founded - which brought forward ALL scientific knowledge of the founding members and those who would join up).
What does all this have to do with photonic torpedoes?
"Stop working on Warp 5 engines, or we withold the cancer cure we talked about."
Of course, it shouldn't matter, since humans are patently smarter than Vulcans. It took us 300 years from the atom bomb to become the most powerful species in the quadrant; the Vulcans, who had, roughly, an 1800 year head start, became our vassals.
"Stop working on Warp 5 engines, or we withold the cancer cure we talked about."
Of course, it shouldn't matter, since humans are patently smarter than Vulcans. It took us 300 years from the atom bomb to become the most powerful species in the quadrant; the Vulcans, who had, roughly, an 1800 year head start, became our vassals.
Not necessarily smarter ... merely that Humans in Trek universe didn't want to wait long periods of time, and as Archer pointed out to T'Pol, they don't live for 200 years.
I always took the photonic torpedoes to be the much younger, and less advanced, version of the photon torpedo. I always presumed that they were of lesser power and fixed in yield (we saw in TNG and later series that photon torpedoes have variable yields). They quite possibly may not have had the same range, propulsion, and guidance systems. Quite similar to the difference between phasers and phase pistols.
Whoops, lots of interesting stuff going on here. Sorry to return to something a page old already:
That'd be a good analogy, if the only way Iraq could trade with, say, Syria or Pakistan would be via spacecraft...
A better analogy in the current situation would be if Iraq were an island nation in exceptionally calm seas and were given the means to build some diesel-powered ships to do trade with other such island nations, by an island nation that had such ships aplenty, on a planet that had nothing but island nations. Sailing journeys that previously took years would now be replaced by merely weeks-long cargo runs (although the tech could also be used for warships, even if the poor Iraqi could only arm them with muzzle-loading smoothbores at first).
My sentiments, too - it does seem proof positive that the Vulcans were holding some trump cards there. They could easily have withheld key technologies (such as "how do we manufacture a plasma injector to the sort of precision all those other aliens do?"), or used more direct means of influence (such as "we won't give you a letter of passage for this area of space yet - so if you go there, you die... not by our hand, but you die nevertheless"), or then less direct (the "cure of cancer may have to wait" thing). There must be dozens of ways for an elder species to blackmail lesser players even when said players aren't complete slaves to the elders. That's everyday international politics, really...
I really doubt that. Just because India or Israel or South Africa (or any other nation that's effectively less than a century old) can launch satellites doesn't mean it should ignore the United States or Russia as political entities.
Good question. I'd really wonder if the Vulcans readily approved of the humans developing that particular weapon. After all, it seems to be a parity tech, like the warp five engine, for that day and age (give or take a few warp factors or isotons).
Probably NX-01 would have been a failure if the technologies of phase and photonic torpedo armament had not also been fielded aboard her. Perhaps Vulcans finally approved of the fielding when all the key technologies were in place and the Earthlings could be expected to come back alive (and to be able to shake off those who'd like to come back with them). Or perhaps that's the point at which they no longer could factually stall, not without going to open war with Earth.
Timo Saloniemi
That'd be a good analogy, if the only way Iraq could trade with, say, Syria or Pakistan would be via spacecraft...
A better analogy in the current situation would be if Iraq were an island nation in exceptionally calm seas and were given the means to build some diesel-powered ships to do trade with other such island nations, by an island nation that had such ships aplenty, on a planet that had nothing but island nations. Sailing journeys that previously took years would now be replaced by merely weeks-long cargo runs (although the tech could also be used for warships, even if the poor Iraqi could only arm them with muzzle-loading smoothbores at first).
My sentiments, too - it does seem proof positive that the Vulcans were holding some trump cards there. They could easily have withheld key technologies (such as "how do we manufacture a plasma injector to the sort of precision all those other aliens do?"), or used more direct means of influence (such as "we won't give you a letter of passage for this area of space yet - so if you go there, you die... not by our hand, but you die nevertheless"), or then less direct (the "cure of cancer may have to wait" thing). There must be dozens of ways for an elder species to blackmail lesser players even when said players aren't complete slaves to the elders. That's everyday international politics, really...
I really doubt that. Just because India or Israel or South Africa (or any other nation that's effectively less than a century old) can launch satellites doesn't mean it should ignore the United States or Russia as political entities.
Good question. I'd really wonder if the Vulcans readily approved of the humans developing that particular weapon. After all, it seems to be a parity tech, like the warp five engine, for that day and age (give or take a few warp factors or isotons).
Probably NX-01 would have been a failure if the technologies of phase and photonic torpedo armament had not also been fielded aboard her. Perhaps Vulcans finally approved of the fielding when all the key technologies were in place and the Earthlings could be expected to come back alive (and to be able to shake off those who'd like to come back with them). Or perhaps that's the point at which they no longer could factually stall, not without going to open war with Earth.
Timo Saloniemi
And yet it's implied that "deep space" exploration depended on NX-Alpha and Beta succeeding; on the other hand, we know for a fact that the Earth Cargo Service was already making deep space jaunts with the primitive engines they did have, evidently without the benefit of Vulcan star charts (and for some reason Starfleet didn't bother to consult the Earth Cargo Service for possible destinations or first contact procedures).
This suggests to me that the Vulcans weren't holding humans back, just Starfleet. And the more I watch ENT, the more convinced I am that Starfleet was at least a joint venture between humans and Vulcans and possibly a creation of the Vulcans in the first place. That being the case, Archer's resentment remains immature; if he wanted to proceed without Vulcan interference, he should have become a Boomer, and except for the fact that his daddy worked for Starfleet he probably would have.
Okay, let's run with that analogy:
How many nuclear-powered naval vessels did the U.S. provide to Japan? Or the Philippines? Or Guam? Or Puerto Rico? How would the U.S. Government have responded to a demand from one of their governments for that kind of technology?
And not to put too fine a point on this, but "Starfleet" and "Earth Cargo Service" are two vastly different things; the former has officers who complain bitterly about Vulcan interference, the latter has crews who respond "Vulcans? What Vulcans?"
Definitely not. But it means they CAN if they become annoyed with the United States and no longer want to deal with NASA's crap when buying satellite launch services. Not coincidentally, any country that has a working space program also has the means to develop and implement nuclear deterrence against the United States; ICBMs provide a bit of security that even nuclear warheads do not, since the POSSIBILITY of a secret nuke makes those ICBMs look that much more lethal (just ask the Israelis; "We cannot confirm that we have nuclear warheads, but we sure as hell won't deny it! By the way, look at this pretty new missile we just built...")
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if humans and Klingons both patronized the same pan-galactic defense contractor during the 22nd century (the El Aurians, maybe?) and that photon(ic) torpedoes have always been the staple product of some enigmatic but fanatically neutral alpha quadrant race.
The only thing we know for sure is that Starfleet didn't get that technology from the Vulcans, though it's very likely that Starfleet phaser weapons at the time were still inferior to Vulcan weapons.
To be sure, Japan had no technology gap with the US (except perhaps in the construction of quality steam turbines). OTOH, Guam or Puerto Rico had no industrial capabilities or industrial, military or political aspirations. So to run with this already stretched analogy where the entire planet has to consist of islands, we'd need an island nation more akin to the Native America at the first arrival of the Europeans. Does one provide the technology for ocean sailing (almost replicable by the level of "industry" Native America possessed, with a little bit of expert advice on a plethora of details and a few grand lines) or not? We know the historical answer, but if the Europeans had been Vulcans, and the Native Americans had possessed the ambitions of the Earthlings...
It is rather futile to play games on "what would the US have done", alas, because by the time there was a US, the world had lost its supply of underdogs with industrial potential. One might switch the focus a bit and argue that Japan was almost like such an underdog before Perry, and that the European powers did provide Japan with parity technology comparable to NX-01, while at times attempting Vulcan-style "moral restraint" for various largely political goals. Or one might go to Africa of the same time period, and indeed see definite underdog nations being armed and equipped - but there the lack of indigenous industrial potential affects the analogy.
Certainly the parity weapons of Earth emerged suspiciously simultaneously with their first true deep space power projection mission, too early to be the result of that mission. One would then suspect there had been some deals behind the backs of the Vulcans, yes. And in ENT, don't we actually see Earth operate a few ship types that are later established to be in use by other local powers? The odds of those aliens buying Earthling stuff are pretty slim, but the odds for the opposite happening sound reasonable. After all, we can always sell them local booze; luxury items and beverages or quaint rustic stuff seem to cut it as hard currency even in the TOS and TNG eras.
One might argue T'Pol was being disingenious when indicating ignorance of photonic armaments in "Sleeping Dogs", as those might have been her explicit orders... "They'll run into all this eventually, but you are to stall; they are not ready, or at least we don't want them to be."
OTOH, I'd love to interpret the early Earthling antimatter torps, the "photonic" ones, as corresponding to the TNG TM description of crude warheads where macroscopic lumps of matter and antimatter collide. This technology might have reached its pinnacle in the TOS era, in the form of massively powerful versions of the crude devices - but that tech would have had its tactical limitations, and the suggested more efficient mixing system would indeed emerge for the TOS movie era, allowing for the close-up action, precision strikes and efficient kills or woundings we see in those movies. The big bang warhead might still persist as an alternative, just like USN kept a few wire-guided fission torpedoes in stock even when conventional ones reached the level needed for assured kills of successfully intercepted Russkie boomers.
Timo Saloniemi
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