Problem with Kirk's immediate promotion to Captain

[lawman]

Deckerd-

Just so I'm clear here: I can't dictate to you what you may infer, but you can dictate to Mr. LB what he was implying?

Might it not be preferable to apply Occam's Razor and only draw the most logically sensible inference from his post, rather than the one that's most extreme and thus easiest for you to ridicule?

 

[Jeyl]

NuKirk. Promoted to the rank of Captain due to severe..... whatever.

He lacks intuition. He only took this job so he can show off to Pike. "Four years? I'll do it in three." That's great NuKirk, but I'm curious. Other than to show off at Pike at how ambitious you are, why in heavens name are you ambitious? You don't take anything seriously, you don't respect the opinions and teachings of others and you sure as heck don't believe in regulations, unless of course they work towards your own benefit.

It's no wonder he didn't give the "Space, the final frontier" monologue at the end. It's not in his character! No where in this film does Kirk reflect anything at what that monologue sets up.

NuKirk: Buckle up!

&%#! you NuKirk. I hope you melt in a transporter accident and scream horrifically like your crew members did in TMP.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Surely Starfleet are entitled to skip ranks?

Ranks are there to be used. They should not be skipped.

You're implying that up until this movie all ranking decisions were completely logical in ST.

In all other instances where we've seen someone promoted, they have always gone to the next highest rank. For instance: Worf (LT to LCDR), Riker (CDR to Captain), Geordi (LTJG to LT, then a year later to LCDR), etc. In that sense, yes, all ranking decisions HAVE been logical.

As for nuKirk? I maintain that my earlier proposal would also have been logical. Kirk was a Lieutenant for most of this film, so if he must be promoted, give him the rank of Lieutenant Commander. He can still be captain of the ship with that rank. He'd even be CALLED captain. He just wouldn't have the rank. Not yet. THAT would be much more logical than what we got.

 

[Kaziarl]

you sure as heck don't believe in regulations, unless of course they work towards your own benefit.

The rest seemed reasonable, but this part stood out. Did you watch star trek? And I don't mean this movie. The old Kirk wasn't exactly a stickler for the rules either, and often for personal reasons. (Going to genesis so he can have his best friend back, AGAINST standing starfleet order for example.)

 

[Jeyl]

The old Kirk wasn't exactly a stickler for the rules either, and often for personal reasons.

True, but I don't see him whining about it into his Tricorder.

NuKirk: Acting Captain Spock has marooned me on Delta Vega in what I believe to be a violation of security protocol 49.09

Oh, really? Tell NuKirk, so they have regulations for verbally assaulting and disobeying direct orders from your superior officer? Or how about assaulting two on-duty officers with deliberate attempt at physical harm? I'd love to see the regulations on that.

 

[Kaziarl]

The old Kirk wasn't exactly a stickler for the rules either, and often for personal reasons.

True, but I don't see him whining about it into his Tricorder.

NuKirk: Acting Captain Spock has marooned me on Delta Vega in what I believe to be a violation of security protocol 49.09

Oh, really? Tell NuKirk, so they have regulations for verbally assaulting and disobeying direct orders from your superior officer? Or how about assaulting two on-duty officers with deliberate attempt at physical harm? I'd love to see the regulations on that.

I'm pretty sure he went on to say that regulation had to do with marooning him on an inhospitable planet. Which, quite frankly, I think he's got reason to "whine" about. Thats one thing I think Spock was out of line for. You put people in the brig, thats what it's there for.

 

[Jeyl]

I'm pretty sure he went on to say that regulation had to do with marooning him on an inhospitable planet.

If it's such an inhospitable planet, why does the Federation have an outpost there? And for that matter, didn't someone do the exact same thing to Spock? So maybe abandoning people on planets alone is common place?

 

[Kaziarl]

I'm pretty sure he went on to say that regulation had to do with marooning him on an inhospitable planet.

If it's such an inhospitable planet, why does the Federation have an outpost there? And for that matter, didn't someone do the exact same thing to Spock? So maybe abandoning people on planets alone is common place?

That was Nero. You know... the bad guy? The one that blew up vulcan, tried to blow up earth... Probably don't want to be acting like the bad guy. And again, were we watching the same thing? A run down under supplied outpost that didn't even look like it had working plumbing. "Inhospitable" does not mean devoid of life. In-laws home is inhospitable, death valley is inhospitable, the bottom of the ocean is inhospitable, and so was an ice planet.

 

[lawman]

NuKirk. ...

It's no wonder he didn't give the "Space, the final frontier" monologue at the end. It's not in his character! No where in this film does Kirk reflect anything at what that monologue sets up.

Interesting point. I don't have the antipathy toward the character you apparently do (i.e., I don't wish him a violent and painful death!), but you're right about his relative dearth of higher aspirations. Kirk's motivations in this film seem to boil down to (A) defy authority, and (B) find a substitute father figure. Those are what's driving him at the beginning, and they're still what's driving him at the end.

Any interest he may have in "exploring strange new worlds" goes entirely unmentioned. Indeed, one's left wondering what exactly he learned in the Academy.

 

[Deckerd]

I thought he behaved exactly like the original Kirk, who was definitely not the Renaissance man of the pilot episodes (or collective fuzzy memories). You only really get a civilized captain again when Picard comes along.

 

[Pauln6]

I'm pretty sure he went on to say that regulation had to do with marooning him on an inhospitable planet.

If it's such an inhospitable planet, why does the Federation have an outpost there? And for that matter, didn't someone do the exact same thing to Spock? So maybe abandoning people on planets alone is common place?

That was Nero. You know... the bad guy? The one that blew up vulcan, tried to blow up earth... Probably don't want to be acting like the bad guy. And again, were we watching the same thing? A run down under supplied outpost that didn't even look like it had working plumbing. "Inhospitable" does not mean devoid of life. In-laws home is inhospitable, death valley is inhospitable, the bottom of the ocean is inhospitable, and so was an ice planet.

I think we have to accept that at least part of Spock's motivation was irrational due to the grief of losing a whole planet and his mother.

Still, if you want to put him off the ship, it would be far more logical to beam him to the outpost with a security escort (cue Janice Rand) and orders to put him in the brig there. Spock is warping out of the system and doesn't know it is possible to beam onto a ship at warp so he'd have no reason to think that wasn't sufficient. At least there Kirk (or Rand) can try to warn Starfleet about the Narada using their communications array. If Spock is already at the base their meeting seems less contrived too. Spock already has then had time to work on modifying the transporters beforehand with Scotty's help and they can actually beam onto the Narada instead of the Enterprise with 5 officers instead of 2, one of whom already knows the layout and carry out the same plan a lot sooner! Simples.

 

[Kaziarl]

If it's such an inhospitable planet, why does the Federation have an outpost there? And for that matter, didn't someone do the exact same thing to Spock? So maybe abandoning people on planets alone is common place?

That was Nero. You know... the bad guy? The one that blew up vulcan, tried to blow up earth... Probably don't want to be acting like the bad guy. And again, were we watching the same thing? A run down under supplied outpost that didn't even look like it had working plumbing. "Inhospitable" does not mean devoid of life. In-laws home is inhospitable, death valley is inhospitable, the bottom of the ocean is inhospitable, and so was an ice planet.

I think we have to accept that at least part of Spock's motivation was irrational due to the grief of losing a whole planet and his mother.

Still, if you want to put him off the ship, it would be far more logical to beam him to the outpost with a security escort (cue Janice Rand) and orders to put him in the brig there. Spock is warping out of the system and doesn't know it is possible to beam onto a ship at warp so he'd have no reason to think that wasn't sufficient. At least there Kirk (or Rand) can try to warn Starfleet about the Narada using their communications array. If Spock is already at the base their meeting seems less contrived too. Spock already has then had time to work on modifying the transporters beforehand with Scotty's help and they can actually beam onto the Narada instead of the Enterprise with 5 officers instead of 2, one of whom already knows the layout and carry out the same plan a lot sooner! Simples.

Now, see, THAT I can completely agree with. And we coulda done without the ruby red giant.

Don't mind Ice monsters, but bright red ones in the ice? That seemed a little silly even to me.

 

[Pauln6]

You could easily work a monster into that scenario - a convenient power cut, somebody has to go outside, Keenser gets eaten. Job done.

 

[Jeyl]

I thought he behaved exactly like the original Kirk, who was definitely not the Renaissance man of the pilot episodes (or collective fuzzy memories). You only really get a civilized captain again when Picard comes along.

Not a Renaissance man, eh? Have you seen the season one episode titled "The Conscience of the King"? He knows Shakespeare, watches the plays and knows enough about it to recite it off the top of his head. But what about his rude, over-the-top flirtation with women? Not even a hint of that here. Just nice subtle development.

And what about another first season episode called Space Seed?

Scotty: Be a shame for a Scottsman to admit it, but I'm not up on Milton.
Kirk: The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit: 'It is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.'

Even more evidence that Kirk is fond of literature! Remember the gift that Spock gave Kirk for his Birthday in Star Trek II? It wasn't a sleek new motorcycle. It was a book called "A Tale of Two Cities". You really think NuKirk is the kind of character who would spend time reading classic literature, watching Shakespeare plays and be able to recite quotes from famous works? Ya, probably not.

 

[startrekrcks]

yes that big red monster was a bit much the film could have done without it or was that a CGI monster just wondering.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

yes that big red monster was a bit much the film could have done without it or was that a CGI monster just wondering.

The moster was a fun bit of business. I could take it or leave it, but it did keep the energy up.

FYI, the Hengraugge (or Big Red behind the scenes) was designed by the guy who designed the Cloverfield monster, Neville Page.

It was realized by ILM in CGI, as was the "Polarilla" that chased Kirk originally.

 

[startrekrcks]

Yes Kirk had to really run from it ok I will admit it was a very funny scene seeing Chris run away from the big red monster

 

[pookha]

I thought he behaved exactly like the original Kirk, who was definitely not the Renaissance man of the pilot episodes (or collective fuzzy memories). You only really get a civilized captain again when Picard comes along.

Not a Renaissance man, eh? Have you seen the season one episode titled "The Conscience of the King"? He knows Shakespeare, watches the plays and knows enough about it to recite it off the top of his head. But what about his rude, over-the-top flirtation with women? Not even a hint of that here. Just nice subtle development.

And what about another first season episode called Space Seed?

Scotty: Be a shame for a Scottsman to admit it, but I'm not up on Milton.
Kirk: The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit: 'It is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.'

Even more evidence that Kirk is fond of literature! Remember the gift that Spock gave Kirk for his Birthday in Star Trek II? It wasn't a sleek new motorcycle. It was a book called "A Tale of Two Cities". You really think NuKirk is the kind of character who would spend time reading classic literature, watching Shakespeare plays and be able to recite quotes from famous works? Ya, probably not.

very possibly..
one of my best friends two great loves was classical music and wrestling..

as far as kirk whining check out trouble with tribbles some time..
he whines (he has a ongoing headache) moanes and bitches at various people all through it.

and while we dont get to see that much of kirk new movie education we do know that pike says he has genius level intelligence.

 

[startrekrcks]

This Kirk is a bit more conflicted isn't he to William Shatner's Kirk who really wasn't that kind of a guy am I making sense or do you not get what I am saying?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I thought he behaved exactly like the original Kirk, who was definitely not the Renaissance man of the pilot episodes (or collective fuzzy memories). You only really get a civilized captain again when Picard comes along.

Not a Renaissance man, eh? Have you seen the season one episode titled "The Conscience of the King"? He knows Shakespeare, watches the plays and knows enough about it to recite it off the top of his head. But what about his rude, over-the-top flirtation with women? Not even a hint of that here. Just nice subtle development.

And what about another first season episode called Space Seed?

Scotty: Be a shame for a Scottsman to admit it, but I'm not up on Milton.
Kirk: The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit: 'It is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.'

Even more evidence that Kirk is fond of literature! Remember the gift that Spock gave Kirk for his Birthday in Star Trek II? It wasn't a sleek new motorcycle. It was a book called "A Tale of Two Cities". You really think NuKirk is the kind of character who would spend time reading classic literature, watching Shakespeare plays and be able to recite quotes from famous works? Ya, probably not.

very possibly..
one of my best friends two great loves was classical music and wrestling..

as far as kirk whining check out trouble with tribbles some time..
he whines (he has a ongoing headache) moanes and bitches at various people all through it.

He's also a major smartass it that episode.