Problem with Kirk's immediate promotion to Captain

[Pauln6]

I don't think it's right to disparage people who enjoyed the film in spite of its shortcomings (I'm one of them). Nor do I think it's right to say that it couldn't have been improved on more levels if they had made a few simple, sensible, scientifically plausible alterations.

However, I draw the line at saying you enjoyed the movie BECAUSE they 'completely ignored any attempt at scienctific plausibility.' That, sir, is an insult to the spirit of Spock!

I enjoyed the film. I'd have enjoyed it more if they had tried harder to make the science and plot a tad more plausible. I'd have enjoyed it even more again if they'd replaced Chekov with Rand. But yeah, I'm sure similar arguments can be raised against a lot of films that are among my top ten (Rand in place of Ripley not so much). It's all relative.

Still these debates are fun and I'm bored at work...

 

[Deckerd]

However, I draw the line at saying you enjoyed the movie BECAUSE they 'completely ignored any attempt at scienctific plausibility.' That, sir, is an insult to the spirit of Spock!

Nevertheless it is one of the reasons I thoroughly enjoyed it. ST has never tried to follow a scientific line. It has, on occasion, tried to adhere to its own scientific fantasy line but generally fails, forgets, or rewrites it half-way through*. It's one of the most endearing aspects of the whole franchise.

* which is why we have Timo to help us make sense of it all.

 

[lawman]

I liked the film because it completely ignored any attempt at scienctific plausibility in favour of a good story...

Now this, at least, definitely counts as setting forth your criteria clearly and honestly.

That said, of course there's still room to quibble.

For starters... how exactly can you claim that as a fair trade-off for enjoyment? Such an approach seems a bit of a cheat for any story that isn't firmly in the "fantasy" genre from the get-go, which Trek has never been.

Secondly... even setting aside any questions of science, the story is still full of questionable internal logic, shaky character motivations, and outrageous coincidences... which are not generally considered characteristics of a "good story." To me, a "good story" is necessarily (among other things) one that makes sense, and failing to do so is very seldom "endearing."

At any rate, I think the trade-off you posit is a false dichotomy. I maintain, as I have all along, that the writers could have told a story that achieved all the same goals origin-wise, and was every bit as exciting, while also adhering to a higher standard of basic logic, character integrity, and intellectual credibility. (And if they could have, they should have. It might've taken a bit more work, of course... but hey, the job does pay awfully well.)

Do you mean to suggest that you would actually have enjoyed the movie less under those circumstances?

 

[Pauln6]

ST has never tried to follow a scientific line. It has, on occasion, tried to adhere to its own scientific fantasy line but generally fails, forgets, or rewrites it half-way through*. It's one of the most endearing aspects of the whole franchise.

* which is why we have Timo to help us make sense of it all.

Ah yes - I've read the nitpicker's guides to TOS and TNG and thoroughly enjoyed them, although I only spotted about a third of them without help...

In fairness, early writers established the rules of Trek science as they went. In the modern age though, the writers have access to online resources to double check this stuff. It's less defensible today even if it is just as hilarious/frustrating.

I think you do have to distinguish a 'good' story from an 'enjoyable' story though. Appallingly written drivel can still be enjoyable if presented well.

 

[lawman]

I think you do have to distinguish a 'good' story from an 'enjoyable' story though. Appallingly written drivel can still be enjoyable if presented well.

You have a point there. We all have a few "guilty pleasures" when it comes to entertainment, things we enjoy without any illusions about their actual quality... me no less than anyone else. I've never thought of Star Trek in that category, though.

 

[siskokid888]

Folks, a couple of things on this - this Kirk is not 17, he is pushing 30. Pike has already identified him as a prodigy. With all other Starfleet officers running away (INCLUDING SPOCK), he takes command of the flagship, attacks while everyone is retreating, AND SAVES THE GODDAMN FEDERATION. For that he should get a pat on the head and be handed a mop? And one more thing - IT'S JAMES T. KIRK! Buy into your own mythos, folks.

 

[Pauln6]

Folks, a couple of things on this - this Kirk is not 17, he is pushing 30. Pike has already identified him as a prodigy. With all other Starfleet officers running away (INCLUDING SPOCK), he takes command of the flagship, attacks while everyone is retreating, AND SAVES THE GODDAMN FEDERATION. For that he should get a pat on the head and be handed a mop? And one more thing - IT'S JAMES T. KIRK! Buy into your own mythos, folks.

I think he's 25 - and most new crew would be 22 (in at 18 and graduated by 22) thus he is only 3 years more mature than the typical officer graduate and he's roughly the same age as Spock. If anything, Uhura and Chekov are the oddities (she should be about 18 assuming she hasn't been aged for convenience and Chekov was aged to be 17). Sulu is 20 I think so even he is a bit younger than average, especially if he is still meant to be a physicist as well as a pilot.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kirk's age does not entitle him to skip ranks.

 

[Deckerd]

Surely Starfleet are entitled to skip ranks?

 

[Pauln6]

It's not an issue of ranks or even ability, it's a question of experience. Until an officer proves he can handle himself in a variety of situations, including e.g. diplomatic, humanitarian, administrative, and military it cannot be said that they have what it takes. We know that old Kirk had what it takes but even we can't be sure that NuKirk does. And frankly, after his experiences in the Mirror Universe, it isn't logical for Spock to assume that NuKirk is up to the job either.

Personally, I think the Enterprise's efforts at rescuing people from Vulcan was woeful. They used one transporter to save a handful of people and didn't offer medical assistance to any escaping ships just in case they needed help. I think Kirk's failure to attempt to rescue the Narada's crew was also questionable, and the decision to stay on the event horizon to blast them at short range was tactically unwise and almost destroyed the ship. His decision to beam on board the Narada without at least one security team was also significantly flawed. He did well because he was lucky i.e. the plot stepped in to save him but his tactics are high risk and shortsighted.

 

[siskokid888]

Folks, a couple of things on this - this Kirk is not 17, he is pushing 30. Pike has already identified him as a prodigy. With all other Starfleet officers running away (INCLUDING SPOCK), he takes command of the flagship, attacks while everyone is retreating, AND SAVES THE GODDAMN FEDERATION. For that he should get a pat on the head and be handed a mop? And one more thing - IT'S JAMES T. KIRK! Buy into your own mythos, folks.

I think he's 25 - and most new crew would be 22 (in at 18 and graduated by 22) thus he is only 3 years more mature than the typical officer graduate and he's roughly the same age as Spock. If anything, Uhura and Chekov are the oddities (she should be about 18 assuming she hasn't been aged for convenience and Chekov was aged to be 17). Sulu is 20 I think so even he is a bit younger than average, especially if he is still meant to be a physicist as well as a pilot.

I think he is 25 when he enters the Academy - 3 years in the academy makes him around 28 when he gets on the E - IIRC Kirk Prime made Captain at 34, so does that 6 year difference really make it outlandish that he is made captain now, given the incidents and his abilities? I don't think so. Sure, we all know its dramatically expedient for Abrams and co. to do so, but they are not making a 17 year old captain, and I, for one, don't have a problem buying into it.

 

[BillJ]

Folks, a couple of things on this - this Kirk is not 17, he is pushing 30. Pike has already identified him as a prodigy. With all other Starfleet officers running away (INCLUDING SPOCK), he takes command of the flagship, attacks while everyone is retreating, AND SAVES THE GODDAMN FEDERATION. For that he should get a pat on the head and be handed a mop? And one more thing - IT'S JAMES T. KIRK! Buy into your own mythos, folks.

I think he's 25 - and most new crew would be 22 (in at 18 and graduated by 22) thus he is only 3 years more mature than the typical officer graduate and he's roughly the same age as Spock. If anything, Uhura and Chekov are the oddities (she should be about 18 assuming she hasn't been aged for convenience and Chekov was aged to be 17). Sulu is 20 I think so even he is a bit younger than average, especially if he is still meant to be a physicist as well as a pilot.

I think he is 25 when he enters the Academy - 3 years in the academy makes him around 28 when he gets on the E - IIRC Kirk Prime made Captain at 34, so does that 6 year difference really make it outlandish that he is made captain now, given the incidents and his abilities? I don't think so. Sure, we all know its dramatically expedient for Abrams and co. to do so, but they are not making a 17 year old captain, and I, for one, don't have a problem buying into it.

25. Kirk is born in 2233, then bulk of the film takes place in 2258 (2387-129). Yes those six years can make a hell of alot of difference. Think of all the different types of missions he missed that helped to make him the character we see in TOS. Think of the experiences he's missed out on, the various types of ships and crews that he's missed working with.

He is no longer the Jim Kirk we all know. He is now a wild-card who has gained his command solely on what another man named Jim Kirk accomplished.

 

[lawman]

I think he is 25 when he enters the Academy - 3 years in the academy makes him around 28 when he gets on the E - IIRC Kirk Prime made Captain at 34, so does that 6 year difference really make it outlandish that he is made captain now, given the incidents and his abilities? I don't think so. Sure, we all know its dramatically expedient for Abrams and co. to do so, but they are not making a 17 year old captain, and I, for one, don't have a problem buying into it.

No, BillJ is correct: Kirk in this film is born in 2233, thus 22 when he enters the Academy, and 25 when the bulk of the story happens in 2258.

The original Kirk was 34 in the second-season episode "The Deadly Years"; there's room for some debate about exactly how much earlier he was given command of the Enterprise, but it's generally assumed to be when he was about 30-32. And at that age he was the youngest Starship captain in fleet history, and that came with nearly a decade of post-Academy spacefaring experience.

So making the new guy both far younger and far less experienced is just compounding implausibilities.

He is no longer the Jim Kirk we all know. He is now a wild-card who has gained his command solely on what another man named Jim Kirk accomplished.

Precisely.

(Except for the nepotism. Don't forget the nepotism: he also got there because Pike knew his dad.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

Pike knew of his dad. I don't think an actual meeting or relationship between G. Kirk and Pike is mentioned. All Pike did was challenge Kirk to join Starfleet and later make him first officer. It was OldSpock who pushed Kirk to take command of the Enterprise. As far as I know, Starfleet Command knows nothing of the other Jim Kirk or his background and it would not factor in their decision to make their Jim Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

 

[lawman]

Pike knew of his dad. I don't think an actual meeting or relationship between G. Kirk and Pike is mentioned. All Pike did was challenge Kirk to join Starfleet and later make him first officer. It was OldSpock who pushed Kirk to take command of the Enterprise. As far as I know, Starfleet Command knows nothing of the other Jim Kirk or his background and it would not factor in their decision to make their Jim Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

You may be right about Pike. I can't point to specific dialogue proving he actually knew George, although I was certainly left with that impression. Regardless, it's clear that he at least admired the man, and that this influenced his decision to recruit Kirk and later make him "first officer," without which he certainly wouldn't have become captain.

As for what Starfleet Command knows of what OldSpock knows, we really have absolutely no evidence one way or the other. IMHO his decision to tell Kirk himself that he was destined to be Captain, however, can only be a bad thing in terms of his character development. The original Kirk never had any foreknowledge of a glorious and successful future for himself; he earned it the hard way. This version is liable to be a lot cockier about things.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The film would not be satisfying if Kirk was not the Captain at the end of the movie.

But as I keep pointing out, Kirk did not have to be promoted to the RANK of Captain in order to have the POSITION of Captain. It would have been far less of a stretch for the admirals to say "James T. Kirk, you are hereby promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Commander*, and ordered to report to USS Enterprise as her acting commanding officer". Everyone would still call him Captain Kirk, because the CO of any ship is always called Captain regardless of actual rank.

Except scifi promotion rules imply that being promoted to Lieutenant Commander and getting a ship can be done if you walk into a terrorist situation and save the life of a former admiral, and saving a whole planet from destruction required a lot more work then that so it should get you a higher rank.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Pike tells Kirk he wrote a dissertation on the Kelvin and liked the elder Kirk's attitude. He wishe Starfleet had more like him. He sees that same attitude in Jim Kirk. Thats pretty much it.
What does Kirk know? That he was Captain of the Enterprise and Spock was his friend in the other reality is all I can recall Old Spock telling him. Nero mention he (Kirk) was a grest man, but I'm not sure if he says that to Kirk. Also, we don't if Old Spock had any contact with Starfleet. Finding a new home for the Vulcan survivors and settling them there seems to be his first and only priority.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Surely Starfleet are entitled to skip ranks?

Ranks are there to be used. They should not be skipped.

 

[BillJ]

Pike knew of his dad. I don't think an actual meeting or relationship between G. Kirk and Pike is mentioned. All Pike did was challenge Kirk to join Starfleet and later make him first officer. It was OldSpock who pushed Kirk to take command of the Enterprise. As far as I know, Starfleet Command knows nothing of the other Jim Kirk or his background and it would not factor in their decision to make their Jim Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

Spock Prime was at the ceremony where Kirk was promoted to Captain. I can't believe he had no input into Jim Kirk's fast track to command. Didn't exactly look like a public ceremony.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Pike knew of his dad. I don't think an actual meeting or relationship between G. Kirk and Pike is mentioned. All Pike did was challenge Kirk to join Starfleet and later make him first officer. It was OldSpock who pushed Kirk to take command of the Enterprise. As far as I know, Starfleet Command knows nothing of the other Jim Kirk or his background and it would not factor in their decision to make their Jim Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

Spock Prime was at the ceremony where Kirk was promoted to Captain. I can't believe he had no input into Jim Kirk's fast track to command. Didn't exactly look like a public ceremony.

He was watching from a balcony. Probably the seats reserved for friends and family. Don't see why Kirk wouldn't give him one of his "tickets". Maybe Mom and Sam were there too.