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How could a Star Trek fan NOT like Insurrection?

On the whole, it was enjoyable, but...



This was my problem with it. It felt too much like an episode and not enough like a movie.

That's why I liked it -- I like episodes of Star Trek! It does have some BAD, ill-fitting humor moments. But that's usually true of humor in Trek, eh? But I like the whole concept/feel of it. Had a moral dilemma. Not just defeat-the-bad-guy.

Even though that's exactly what happened. In true cheesy action movie fashion, our heroes arrive riding above the explosions and get out the main character and leave the villain to die. As soon as the bad guy is dead and we fulfill the movie's explosion quota, problem solved.
Exactly. There's no moral dilemma at all. We're flat-out told, "We're right, those guys are wrong, and we're going to do something about it because... well, because we're the good guys and that's what we do." My biggest problem with the film is that there were no real stakes for our crew until the very end of the film, and our heroes are barely connected to the story. The "bad guy" is a cartoon character. The good guys are pretty; the bad guys are ugly.

The best TNG episodes are about the main characters. "BOBW." "Tapestry." "Inner Light." "Yesterday's Enterprise." "Family." "The Drumhead." Each of those episodes presents big stakes for our crew.

Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" is how to do this story correctly, with a moral dilemma, with ambiguity, with real character development for the "heroes."
 
Maybe i just like it and found reasons to justify my liking. Not that I do that, mind you. But maybe I did.
 
Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" is how to do this story correctly, with a moral dilemma, with ambiguity, with real character development for the "heroes."

Yeah, but do you really want a three hour Star Trek movie?

More importantly, would the average movie goer want a three hour Star Trek movie?
 
Maybe i just like it and found reasons to justify my liking. Not that I do that, mind you. But maybe I did.
You don't need to justify what you like. I like TMP, for Seldon's sake, and I don't need to justify it. :)

There are things I like about "Insurrection." It does remind me of the TV series, it doesn't have time travel (a big plus in my book), and I did like the opening with Data going nuts.
Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" is how to do this story correctly, with a moral dilemma, with ambiguity, with real character development for the "heroes."

Yeah, but do you really want a three hour Star Trek movie?

More importantly, would the average movie goer want a three hour Star Trek movie?
No, but it's possible to do those things in two hours, especially since the cast wouldn't be as huge as the one in Samurai.
 
No, but it's possible to do those things in two hours, especially since the cast wouldn't be as huge as the one in Samurai.

Yep. Best of Both Worlds was a really great Picard/Riker story that clocked in well under two hours.

Dare I say, Year of Hell also had some good character moments not just for Janeway and Seven, but for many of the main characters as well, again under two hours.

It's possible to balance the epic and the character. What pains me is that we'll have the occasional almost-epically-cinematic episodes on TV, but we often got the "formulaic-routine-TV" films.
 
Maybe i just like it and found reasons to justify my liking. Not that I do that, mind you. But maybe I did.
You don't need to justify what you like. I like TMP, for Seldon's sake, and I don't need to justify it. :)

There are things I like about "Insurrection." It does remind me of the TV series, it doesn't have time travel (a big plus in my book), and I did like the opening with Data going nuts.
Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" is how to do this story correctly, with a moral dilemma, with ambiguity, with real character development for the "heroes."

Yeah, but do you really want a three hour Star Trek movie?

More importantly, would the average movie goer want a three hour Star Trek movie?
No, but it's possible to do those things in two hours, especially since the cast wouldn't be as huge as the one in Samurai.

The Seven Samurai was already done as a Sci-Fi movie: Battle Beyond the Stars.
 
The Seven Samurai was already done as a Sci-Fi movie: Battle Beyond the Stars.

You've no idea how depressing that sounds in a thread about Insurrection...

I wonder if Battle Beyond the Stars is online somewhere :)
 
It's all in the execution. "Barb Wire" is a beat for beat redux of "Casablanca", but trying to put them in the same league would be insulting on several levels.
 
Except you still have the issue of it still being a series, even after making the leap to the big screen. So a certain amount of the status quo has to be maintained.

The idea that the "status quo" must be maintained is an outdated "television mentality" that kept both the first batch of TOS movies and the TNG films from really progressing the characters and their lives.
 
If you're going to maintain the episodic nature of these things, i.e., each one stands alone, then you really can't have much change in the characters and settings. Otherwise, you're doing a story arc, and you're either going to require your audience to watch everything, or spend a lot of story time on exposition to catch up those who didn't see the last one.

And if a segment of your audience didn't care for the last one, then building on what you started on the last one just made it that much harder to sell to those who didn't like it. At least with all the playing pieces put back where you started, you're starting with more of a clean slate and the disaffected are a bit more likely to give the next one a chance.

Of course, this all works better for a tv series; every show has a bad episode from time to time, and maybe next week's will be better. With feature films, everything gets exaggerated, because of the time between offerings, and you're charging money; much easier for unhappy audience members to respond with, "Get stuffed!"
 
If you're going to maintain the episodic nature of these things, i.e., each one stands alone, then you really can't have much change in the characters and settings. Otherwise, you're doing a story arc, and you're either going to require your audience to watch everything, or spend a lot of story time on exposition to catch up those who didn't see the last one.

And if a segment of your audience didn't care for the last one, then building on what you started on the last one just made it that much harder to sell to those who didn't like it. At least with all the playing pieces put back where you started, you're starting with more of a clean slate and the disaffected are a bit more likely to give the next one a chance.

Of course, this all works better for a tv series; every show has a bad episode from time to time, and maybe next week's will be better. With feature films, everything gets exaggerated, because of the time between offerings, and you're charging money; much easier for unhappy audience members to respond with, "Get stuffed!"

Does this mean you strongly disliked Star Trek: The Motion Picture?
 
If you're going to maintain the episodic nature of these things, i.e., each one stands alone, then you really can't have much change in the characters and settings. Otherwise, you're doing a story arc, and you're either going to require your audience to watch everything, or spend a lot of story time on exposition to catch up those who didn't see the last one.

And if a segment of your audience didn't care for the last one, then building on what you started on the last one just made it that much harder to sell to those who didn't like it. At least with all the playing pieces put back where you started, you're starting with more of a clean slate and the disaffected are a bit more likely to give the next one a chance.

Change in a series does not alway constitute a "story arc" and doesn't require having watched the previous outing nor does it require that the next one be built upon it. The change can be. In fact, you can have change and deal with it without lengthy exposition.

A talented writer can easily show such things or dispatch it with minimal dialogue. And clever dialogue can also convey what the audience needs to know without the audience feeling like they are being told exposition. Take the Lord of the Rings trilogy. A lot of the exposition was handled quite deftly through the dialogue and actions of the characters.

Book series have been doing stand-alone adventures that continuously change characters and settings for a long while. For instance, John Scalzi's Old Man War series. Each book is basically stand-alone, the characters and setting changed, and whatever is built from the previous books is dealt with rather quickly through a minimal amount of exposition. Just enough for the reader to "get it" about the universe and move on.

Granted you have a great deal more space to deal with such things in a novel than you do in a motion picture.

But let's use a Star Trek example: The Voyage Home, easily the most successful of the original TOS movies in terms of bringing in a wider, more mainstream audience. The movie built on what happened in The Search for Spock. Yet that picture basically told a stand-alone adventure about picking up a "couple of humpback whales". The bits of change from the previous movie were dispatched in a scene that used visuals--i.e. the record tapes--to convey what happened. And audiences still flocked to that film, sitting through the expository bookends.

Emphasis mine
Of course, this all works better for a tv series; every show has a bad episode from time to time, and maybe next week's will be better. With feature films, everything gets exaggerated, because of the time between offerings, and you're charging money; much easier for unhappy audience members to respond with, "Get stuffed!"

The time lag can be an advantage to a clever writer.

Time has passed, simple as that. Riker is here now and Troi is there. Picard is on the Enterprise. They've moved on. Or there are new characters. And so on. You just start with them in these places, you don't really need all the interstitial steps on how they got there, and if you do, once again, it can be dispatched through tightly-written dialogue. Kinda like the start of TMP. Of course, that movie in the end restored the status quo.

Of course, Trek has the perfect exposition device--the Captain's Log.
 
If you're going to maintain the episodic nature of these things, i.e., each one stands alone, then you really can't have much change in the characters and settings. Otherwise, you're doing a story arc, and you're either going to require your audience to watch everything, or spend a lot of story time on exposition to catch up those who didn't see the last one.

And if a segment of your audience didn't care for the last one, then building on what you started on the last one just made it that much harder to sell to those who didn't like it. At least with all the playing pieces put back where you started, you're starting with more of a clean slate and the disaffected are a bit more likely to give the next one a chance.

Of course, this all works better for a tv series; every show has a bad episode from time to time, and maybe next week's will be better. With feature films, everything gets exaggerated, because of the time between offerings, and you're charging money; much easier for unhappy audience members to respond with, "Get stuffed!"

Does this mean you strongly disliked Star Trek: The Motion Picture?

Not at all, since 1) TMP was essentially a pilot for the newest version of Star Trek, not just the next episode following "The Counter-Clock Incident", and 2) by the end, everything is pretty much back in place and we're ready for the next adventure (the only thing that would've made it better was if they'd left in Nimoy's ad lib response to Scotty's line "We can have ye' back on Vulcan in three days, Mr. Spock." "Not necessary, Mr. Scott. If Dr. McCoy is to remain on board, then my presence here is essential.")
 
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