Spock's comment at the end of 'The Enemy Within'

[A beaker full of death]

^^Not a bad bluffer's job, there--I've taught Freud in college classes and that rings true.

Probably has something to do with the differences between how the male and female brains work.

And the differences between how men and women have--until recently--been socialized to deal with their sexuality. The rape fantasy has the benefit of absolving the woman from having to take any responsibility for her sexual feelings.

I am compelled to bring forth the example of Yeoman Barrows, who fantasizes about Don Juan -- who, upon his appearance, promptly attempts to ravish her, as was his wont. "I was just thinking, 'All a girl needs is Don Juan...'"

 

[Jeri]

Wow, I just watched that a few minutes ago. Her medieval dress in that is rather unusual; I couldn't really pin down the color (bluray version). It looks kind of minty ice-green with a pewter/violet trim. The tall hat and veil was also hard to pin down the colors.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

^^Not a bad bluffer's job, there--I've taught Freud in college classes and that rings true.

Probably has something to do with the differences between how the male and female brains work.

And the differences between how men and women have--until recently--been socialized to deal with their sexuality. The rape fantasy has the benefit of absolving the woman from having to take any responsibility for her sexual feelings.

Why do some many men seem to fantasize about being seduced by dangerous, deadly femme fatales? At least this is what almost every erotic thriller is based on, and there's a lot of it in SciFi, too. I find it hard to believe that many men would like in real life to have a relationship with a serial killer who is likely to kill them with an ice-stick during sex.

Hmmm... good point, there.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Why do some many men seem to fantasize about being seduced by dangerous, deadly femme fatales? At least this is what almost every erotic thriller is based on, and there's a lot of it in SciFi, too. I find it hard to believe that many men would like in real life to have a relationship with a serial killer who is likely to kill them with an ice-stick during sex.

Because most modern men are wussies for whom the burden of having to be the aggressor in an age in which you need a consent form waiving criminal prosecution for a kiss goodnight has proven too much for them to handle.

 

[Jeri]

I grew up in the sixties, and they were the same then, sans waivers. It's just a fantasy; they get tired of doing all the driving.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Besides, I have to wonder at the precise nature of that fantasy. Sure, the femme fatale is alluring but she usually exists as much as a figure of dread as object of lust: the hero either takes her down (cf. the Borg Queen) or ends up spending his final moments hating himself for being her sap (cf. hard boiled crime fiction). This isn't so much a fantasy as a cautionary tale--sure, a sexually voracious woman is thrilling but watch out, she'll do you like a praying mantis. This does not compare to the type of rape fantasy we're talking about here with Scarlett and Rhett or Luke and Laura or even Yeoman Barrows and the Don Juan-a-tron. Indeed, in the first two cases, the rapist turns out to be the love of the woman's life. Want more evidence? Hunt down a copy of My Secret Garden.

 

[number6]

Why do some many men seem to fantasize about being seduced by dangerous, deadly femme fatales? At least this is what almost every erotic thriller is based on, and there's a lot of it in SciFi, too. I find it hard to believe that many men would like in real life to have a relationship with a serial killer who is likely to kill them with an ice-stick during sex.

Because most modern men are wussies for whom the burden of having to be the aggressor in an age in which you need a consent form waiving criminal prosecution for a kiss goodnight has proven too much for them to handle.

Or because women know how to file restraining orders.

 

[buckeyenation]

Just watched this one hours ago, with this very thread in mind. I made sure to watch the whole thing to gain the context of the line. The actual rape scene itself is way ahead of its time, and fairly graphic, especially for the series itself. Spock's line to Rand, I think, speaks to the fact that if Kirk had shown up at her cabin door with flowers, it would have been a different story. Now that's out of way, we can delve into the most frustrating aspect of The Enemy Within: with the landing party freezing to death, and the transporter out, why didn't they send the shuttlecraft down? Were all them getting their oil changed? Of course without that, the plot has no tension, but still, somebody should have adressed that point.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Why do some many men seem to fantasize about being seduced by dangerous, deadly femme fatales? At least this is what almost every erotic thriller is based on, and there's a lot of it in SciFi, too. I find it hard to believe that many men would like in real life to have a relationship with a serial killer who is likely to kill them with an ice-stick during sex.

Because most modern men are wussies for whom the burden of having to be the aggressor in an age in which you need a consent form waiving criminal prosecution for a kiss goodnight has proven too much for them to handle.

Or because women know how to file restraining orders.

Bingo!

You guys see that world out there - no, look away from the monitor for a moment, out the window there?

You see that? That's it.

There is no Vulcan. There is no Pandora and no wild west. There is no "Mad Men Manhattan."

That world is the only one that we know of, the only world there is to live in.

So live in it, like men, which means without so much goddamned whining about how you think it's betrayed your expectations by changing.

Now I don't know about you, but I think most men have sexual fantasies that we'd love to see actually come to fruition, even if they are patently impossible or illegal.

I think that if you do a quick perusal of the literature out there on the Internet you might decide - or hope, anyway - that many men's most extreme sexual fantasies are just as solidly in the category of "this would horrify me if it happened in real life." Because otherwise a public safety argument could be made for a lot of us wearing probation monitoring bracelets from puberty onward.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I have a dimmer view of human nature. I'd say most of those fantasies fall under the "this would horrify me if it happened in real life and I was then caught and punished for it" category.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That's pretty grim. You figure that most of us don't force ourselves - I don't mean just sexually, but in general - on other people because we're afraid of punishment? Non-consensual fantasies are the ones that I guess I'm thinking of with reference to what you see people on the Internet anonymously document about their thinking - and "non-consensual" includes anything involving prepubescent children.

I mean, when we see someone else doing someone harm there must be a reason we get involved to stop it rather than taking cell-phone pics for later (and yeah, I know that some people do the latter - just not most).

 

[Captain Pike]

While I too think the statement Spock made was creepy, reprehensible and utterly inappropriate (in fact I was just expressing that very thing in another thread in this forum recently), I have to admit that my ex-gf did on at least one occaision reveal to me that she had fantasized about being raped as well as lamenting the fact that I did not treat her roughly in the bedroom. How close her 'fantasy' was to real life, I have no idea, but there you go, it is out there I guess.

Nevertheless, I never let this colour my views towards women in general. My ex-gf exhibited all kinds of eccentric neurosies and odd behaviour. She was, in a word, a nutcase.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

^^Nutcase or not, she voiced a fantasy that is not all that terribly rare and was, many social scientists believe, far more prevalent back when women were shamed for displaying any sexual desire. The fantasy of rape meant a disavowal of control and responsibility.

In response to Dennis: I guess it really comes down to the fine line between between "many" and "most." Echo chamber that the internet can be, a lot of the really dark fantasy material probably represents little more than a vocal minority and yes, I think what holds a lot of those people in check is more a matter of the possible consequences of their actions than a real sense of the damage they'd be inflicting on another human being.

I dunno. I guess I just feel that true human decency is a rare and fragile thing.

EDIT: Interesting that you bring up pre-pubescent children. An attraction to adolescents is often mis-labeled pedophilia in our society, which is just nuts since that easily makes 90% of the population pedophiles. But our society simultaneously infantilizes and sexualizes so-called young adults so that grown men regularly find themselves ogling young girls they pretend to not realize were only 14, 15, what-have-you.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Yeah, well I thought the distinction between pedophilia and statutory rape was worth making - if you suggested that a lot of men would screw women who are sexually mature but under the legal age of consent if they could get away with it, I'd probably concede that based on what I see. I'd hope the number of potential pedophiles, however, is a lot more limited.

And I'm talking about fantasies of nonconsensual sex or other activities with human beings as opposed to simply sexual activity that's way outside what's acceptably "normal" - that is, if you're saying that there are a lot of people who'd go naked in public or screw sheep or some other transgressive activity if they could get away without shame or punishment I might concede that as well.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Right--and we need to establish just how common these fantasies are. I maintain that the rape fantasy must have been quite common for it to worm its way into so many mainstream entertainments aimed at women (an article at Salon recently quoted a novel which described the romance novel genre as one filled with "adverbs and rape." Yikes!). I'm not sure if the outre stuff we see on-line is comparable. I do believe that far more men are capable of forcible rape (not necessarily violent rape) than any of us would be comfortable admitting.

(I will admit to this, just between you and me: were I an extra-dimensional demon-beast possessed of multiple penis-tentacles, no pair of white, lace-trimmed panties would be safe 'coz, like, who's gonna stop me, huh? Who, I ask? Who? Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!)

 

[A beaker full of death]

^^Nutcase or not, she voiced a fantasy that is not all that terribly rare and was, many social scientists believe, far more prevalent back when women were shamed for displaying any sexual desire.

It seems to me to be as prevalent now as ever - especially in an era in which women feel a social responsibility to be professionals and decision makers. The fantasy of being forced lets them relinquish that role.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

(an article at Salon recently quoted a novel which described the romance novel genre as one filled with "adverbs and rape." Yikes!)

Yeah, but you know, if you read a few of those novels (or at least skim the "good parts") you discover pretty quickly that...it's not rape. That is, the most common variations of the "rape fantasy," where it involves the protagonists of the book, don't really resemble sexual assault. Now, there may well be more graphically pornographic female fantasies that do, but if so they certainly tone it down lot for your average paperback bodice-ripper.

 

[scotpens]

. . . Now that's out of way, we can delve into the most frustrating aspect of The Enemy Within: with the landing party freezing to death, and the transporter out, why didn't they send the shuttlecraft down? Were all them getting their oil changed?

Shoot, I thought every Trekkie knew the answer to that by now. The shuttlecraft mockup, filming model and miniature hangar deck hadn't been built yet!

I have a dimmer view of human nature. I'd say most of those fantasies fall under the “this would horrify me if it happened in real life and I was then caught and punished for it” category.

Then you really don't know very much about human nature. Lots of men are excited by fantasies involving rape and brutality toward women. That doesn't mean they'd commit such acts in real life if they knew they could escape punishment. The whole subculture of BDSM is about acting out these kinds of fantasies in the context of consensual role-playing.

An attraction to adolescents is often mis-labeled pedophilia in our society, which is just nuts since that easily makes 90% of the population pedophiles. But our society simultaneously infantilizes and sexualizes so-called young adults so that grown men regularly find themselves ogling young girls they pretend to not realize were only 14, 15, what-have-you.

Thanks for making that point. The terms “pedophile” and “pedophilia” are thrown around rather carelessly these days. A pedophile is an adult with an abnormal sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. A middle-aged guy who ogles physically developed teenage girls isn't a pedophile. He's just a dirty old man!

 

[Captain Robert April]

Once upon a time, it wasn't unusual to be married at 14 and have a brood of kids before you turned 20. Still happens in some cultures.

 

[scotpens]

Once upon a time, it wasn't unusual to be married at 14 and have a brood of kids before you turned 20. Still happens in some cultures.

Indeed, the very concept of “adolescence” is a fairly modern invention, the result of increased lifespans and the longer period of education necessary to function in a complex technological society.

Like the song says, age ain't nothin' but a number. Just don't try telling that to the judge!