Spock's comment at the end of 'The Enemy Within'

[Kegg]

Shinzon is the bad guy, and he also grew up on Remus, which meant he only had Reman girls to fool around with (assuming they even exist, none were shown on Nemesis). Now if a woman was trying to get a promotion by putting out in Starfleet that would run counter to the utopian optimism of the franchise, but it's as perfectly acceptable for the bad guys to do it as it is for them to own private property and make investments.

As far as Rand leaving the show I have mixed feelings. The idea of a passive blond female character who secretly pines after one of the leads is something they just transferred to Christine Chapel (yes it is in "The Naked Time", but who knows if it would have got the screentime it did with Rand around), and I can't see them doing a lot more with the character then they did, not without making her more assertive. Like Uhura she's very docile and passive, unfortunately, and may have just been a fixture of the bridge in the manner the later interchangeable yeomen were. Basically unless she's Peggy Olson, and she never would be, so what?

And as for Spock, in the early episodes he was a scary son of a bitch. I miss that about him.

Very much so. Been rewatching early Star Trek and there's a sort of eerieness about the guy. Somebody has died! Yeah, so what? Oh yes, kill your friend because his power will make him evil. His dispassionate reactions can all too frequently seem downright inhuman. Vulcans were a weird anomaly in that bizarre thing we know as outer space. It's easy to forget that considering how amazingly banal they became in the TNG era. (Addendum: Spock hasn't said 'fascinating' once so far.)

 

[DevilEyes]

I suppose at this relatively early period in the life of the series, the character wasn't fully developed yet, and actors are actors, after all...he got to deliver the episode's punch line.

This rather strange sense of humor was soon written out of Spock’s character.

Jokes about rape are unfunny and illogical.

Suggesting that someone would want to be raped is completely illogical.

 

[Hambone]

Suppose the tables were turned.

Suppose it was Rand who was split into two personalities by the hinky transporter; one innocent and sweet, the other nasty and horny. And suppose the nasty/horny Rand tried to force herself on Kirk. At the end of the episode, Spock turns to Kirk and says:

"The imposter had some interesting qualities, wouldn't you say, Captain?" and Spock and Kirk share a meaningful glance while we cue the comical clarinet and fade out.

Same deal, or different?

 

[number6]

But Kirk and Spock were lovers.. So that meaningful glance would be completely appropriate.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Interesting. If Janice Rand had been split into two halves like Kirk had been, what would the "evil" Janice be like? What would she be thinking about? What would motivate her? What normal qualities would Evil Janice have that the "Good" Janice would be repulsed by and wish that she "didn't have to take back, but they're part of her?"

Despite Kirk's comment that "it's in all of us," is Janice an exception? Or are we simply not allowed to think about it?

(Edit: Oops. Hambone largely beat me to the question.)

 

[DevilEyes]

Suppose the tables were turned.

Suppose it was Rand who was split into two personalities by the hinky transporter; one innocent and sweet, the other nasty and horny. And suppose the nasty/horny Rand tried to force herself on Kirk. At the end of the episode, Spock turns to Kirk and says:

"The imposter had some interesting qualities, wouldn't you say, Captain?" and Spock and Kirk share a meaningful glance while we cue the comical clarinet and fade out.

Same deal, or different?

The difference between the two is that I can see Trek or any other TV writers today going for the scene you described above and seeing nothing wrong with it, just like other writers didn't see anything wrong with Spock's line in The Enemy Within in the 1960s. Evidence: see the way that Trip getting sexually harassed by Phlox's wife in Stigma or even getting pregnant by an alien female (from an activity humans don't see as sexual, so he didn't realize he was having those aliens' equivalent of sex) in Unexpected was played for laughs. I doubt they would have played it for laughs in 2000s if the genders were reversed. And that attitude is not at all rare. So, yeah, there is a double standard. Perhaps people will watch those episodes in a few decades and be shocked at the insensitivity. Or at least I can hope they would.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

A vampy Rand throwing herself at a Kirk who still ranks her and is still strong enough to overpower and restrain her should her advances become too forward and insistent is nothing at all like a drunken, violent Kirk* who is still Rand's captain and is still bigger and stronger than she is. I could see an equivalence if, say, evil Rand were to hand the good captain a specially prepared glass of space Ovaltine and he then woke up on the receiving end of a prostate massage via strap-on but otherwise, it is a false equivalence indeed.

*And we should remember that evil Kirk didn't plan on raping anyone. He simply felt that he and Rand should act on a very palpable mutual attraction and, being bestial by nature and drunk by Saurian brandy, wasn't about to take no for an answer.

 

[DevilEyes]

A vampy Rand throwing herself at a Kirk who still ranks her and is still strong enough to overpower and restrain her should her advances become too forward and insistent is nothing at all like a drunken, violent Kirk* who is still Rand's captain and is still bigger and stronger than she is. I could see an equivalence if, say, evil Rand were to hand the good captain a specially prepared glass of space Ovaltine and he then woke up on the receiving end of a prostate massage via strap-on but otherwise, it is a false equivalence indeed.

That made sense until you mentioned the strap-on. You lost me there.

What, it's only rape if she does it with a strap-on? But if she drugs him, ties him up and fucks him against his will with her vagina - that is not rape?

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Sure it is. And it would still be rape if she slipped the drug into his space Bosco or his space Nesquik. I was just going for one visceral (literally, now that I think of it) scenario.

Rey, visceral

EDIT: I can say this, though--this man in particular and I'd dare say most men in general would be far less disturbed if they were forced to go hilt deep inside a vagina they did not like than if they were penetrated against their will even by a strap-on wielder they did like.

 

[Kegg]

EDIT: I can say this, though--this man in particular and I'd dare say most men in general would be far less disturbed if they were forced to go hilt deep inside a vagina they did not like than if they were penetrated against their will even by a strap-on wielder they did like.

That makes rather uncomfortable sense to me.

Anyway all this discussion honestly makes me half wish TOS did do an episode like this, but it being the sixties I'm rather leery of what the end result would have been like (uppity whorish women who must be put down, maybe, then everyone laughs at Rand's expense at the end of the episode.)

On the other hand, we did sorta touch on this in "Mirror, Mirror", where we saw that women in the alternate universe were more aggressively sexual, violent, and used their eroticism as a weapon. And I love that episode so nobody say anything bad about it now.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

They did, Kegg--"Turnabout Intruder" (nudge nudge). And it's one of the only times a rape can be said to be wholly about power rather than sex.

 

[Kegg]

I try to forget that episode, but point taken (I don't think I've watched it more than once, or if so, not often.)

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I have to wonder: if Rand had been split like Kirk, how would the subsequent pairing off go? Would we see the bestials humping like rabid lematyas while the ineffectuals sit next to each other on a bench and blush while avoiding eye contact or would the bestials smile at each other knowingly and then set off to ravish (that's the sexy, romantic word for rape, folks) the ineffectuals? Now that I think about it, why make it either/or? After the bestials tire of rutting with each other, they could stalk and take down each other's better half with abandon.

That would make great trekkie porn, actually--especially if there's some kind of space chocolate milk involved.

 

[Kegg]

That would make great trekkie porn, actually--especially if there's some kind of space chocolate milk involved.

I agree, but it needs more Spock.

Er, and Uhura. Because I'm definitely heterosexual.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

great trekkie porn

An oxymoron, judging from a couple of quick Google searchs.

 

[scotpens]

great trekkie porn

An oxymoron, judging from a couple of quick Google searchs.

What about “slash” fanfic? The K/S stories were what started it all!

Regarding the “strap-on” comment: It's physically impossible for a female to rape a male otherwise. If, in the eyes of the law, a woman can now “rape” a man without using some object, then the legal definition of rape has been twisted and distorted beyond all common sense and reason.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Not at all, since rape is defined as sexual intercourse without the victim's consent. It's never been limited in all or even the majority of jurisdictions to nonconsensual penetration, nor is there any "common sense" reason that it should be; some places simply have more limited definitions than others and use the term "sexual assault" to describe variations that would be called rape in other places.

 

[scotpens]

Not at all, since rape is defined as sexual intercourse without the victim's consent. It's never been limited in all or even the majority of jurisdictions to nonconsensual penetration, nor is there any “common sense” reason that it should be; some places simply have more limited definitions than others and use the term “sexual assault” to describe variations that would be called rape in other places.

I take your word and stand corrected, since I'm neither a lawyer nor a rapist. Besides, you outrank me.

 

[Captain Robert April]

It's not so much a matter of legality but a matter of being able to maintain an erection under those circumstances, which in most cases would be "not really."

 

[Pauln6]

I agree with earlier comments - rape is about power as much as sex and most women are not strong enough to rape a man in the way depicted in the episode. Many women convicted of rape are aiding and abetting a man.

Plus I agree that a powerful voracious woman is often portrayed for comedic value ('Edmundo!') because immasculating men has long been seen as funny. Many male rapes involve two men. Now if evil Kirk had burst into Chekov's quarters and attempted to force himself on the innocent ensign we'd have a different spin again...