Did Voyager's premise inherently hold it back?

[Pemmer Harge]

If someone asked me what the premise of Voyager was, I'd simply say that it's a show about a Starfleet ship that gets transported to the other side of the galaxy and has to get home while integrating a bunch of rebels they've been chasing into the crew.

I think that to the majority of viewers, that's the premise - it's a Star Trek show that distinguishes itself from the previous three with this angle. I don't think most fans had sleepless nights over whether Voyager was "betraying" its premise by going to an alien starbase in Survival Instinct. We were much more concerned about episode quality and how well this story of getting home to the Alpha Quadrant was told.

 

[Anwar]

And as soon as "Caretaker" was 30 mins done, most of those people wrote off the show as a total failure and only occasionally tuned it to heckle it.

And yes, having dealt with the Hatedom for 15 years I do have enough of an understanding of them and their ideas to know what to say about them.

And even if they HAD explained the ship getting fixed at alien bases between episodes, the audience would regard those explanations the same way the regarded the "Holodeck power can't be used for anything else": Universal revilement.

"Mad Max in space" is what adhering to the premise would have brought (a bunch of burn-outs in a chaotic area full of scavengers and pirates having to do whatever they could to scrounge up enough energy to go for another week while dealing with their people who just want to use them or kill them, never EVER any friends or allies), all of which betrays the basic idea of Trek.

 

[Withers]

And as soon as "Caretaker" was 30 mins done, most of those people wrote off the show as a total failure and only occasionally tuned it to heckle it.

Rubbish. That is not even kind of what happened. Especially in my case (where I watched the whole series all the way through- because in spite of some failings I love anything Trek.) The fact that "you've been dealing with the hatedom for 15 years" only tells me that you've spent 15 years deluding yourself into thinking that the minority position is always the right one and that you're on the side of the angels by excusing absolutely everything wrong with Voyager as either the fault of the premise or the completely overwhelming nature of the aforementioned.



-Withers-​

 

[CoveTom]

VOY was marketed that they wouldn't be able to get restocked and resupplied at starbases, not just Fed Starbases but Starbases at all. As in, they get NOTHING from any starbases they encounter throughout the entire show.

Prove it. Give me one quote, one video, one anything that shows that what you are saying is true. If you can produce anything that substantiates that either the Voyager writers or the characters on the show itself said from the outset that Voyager would not be able to get any help from anyone ever throughout the show, you can PM me your address and I will send you $50.

 

[Anwar]

When I was watching VOY when it initially aired, I was privy to the first bits of critical criticisms the show got that lasts to today and I can very well say it started pretty much right after the premiere. The Hatedom were tolerable back then, but the last 4-5 years they and their ideas just became insufferable and totally wrong-headed.

And if I thought everything bad in VOY was excusable, I wouldn't even say anything about the premise.

And CoveTom, keep your money. Just look up any interviews Berman gave about the show, he'll mention that they can't just go to starbases to restock or resupply. Not Federation Starbases, but Starbases in total. As in, NO Starbases EVER Federation or not.

 

[Withers]

Prove it. Give me one quote, one video, one anything that shows that what you are saying is true. If you can produce anything that substantiates that either the Voyager writers or the characters on the show itself said from the outset that Voyager would not be able to get any help from anyone ever throughout the show, you can PM me your address and I will send you $50.

I'll double it; honestly, I've got a pay-pal account and can wire you the money directly. I don't eat anything but ramen noodles and last night I actually microwaved coffee from three days ago- That's how broke I am and how positive I am that it cannot be done because no such thing exists.


-Withers-​

 

[Saito S]

When I was watching VOY when it initially aired, I was privy to the first bits of critical criticisms the show got that lasts to today and I can very well say it started pretty much right after the premiere. The Hatedom were tolerable back then, but the last 4-5 years they and their ideas just became insufferable and totally wrong-headed.

You were "privy". Uh huh.

What does that MEAN? Were you MORE "privy" than the rest of us?

Did you talk to friends about the show? I did that.
Did you spend time on the internet (such as it was back in '95 ) looking for what people were saying about the new Trek show? I did that.
Did you go door to door across America, polling every last member of the Trek fandom that you could get your hands on in order to get their take on Voyager? I didn't do that, so if you did, then you can speak with greater authority to how "the fandom" reacted to the show. If not, you are just one person speaking from his own personal experiences, as are we all, and you haven't provided anything that stops me from just doing this:

When I was watching VOY when it initially aired, I was privy to the first bits of critical criticisms the show got that lasts to today and I can very well say a lot of people WANTED to give it a chance, but were disappointed by what they saw as a lack of quality writing compared to previous Treks.

Disprove that.

And CoveTom, keep your money. Just look up any interviews Berman gave about the show, he'll mention that they can't just go to starbases to restock or resupply. Not Federation Starbases, but Starbases in total. As in, NO Starbases EVER Federation or not.

Ohh! *raises hand* Pick me, pick me! I found a Berman quote!

"When Voyager came around and we knew we were going to place the next series back on a starship we wanted to do it in a away that was not going to be that redundant when it came to The Next Generation. So we had a certain amount of conflict on the ship because of the Maquis. We had a different dynamic because we were not speaking everyday to Starfleet and because we had a female captain. Those were the major differences that set this show apart from the others... It had the core belief of what Star Trek was all about, both in terms of the excitement and the action and in terms of the provocative elements of ideas that Star Trek has always been known to present to the audience."

Oh... oops. Nothing about never getting any external help or stopping for repair/resupply. Sorry man, guess that didn't really help much.

(The quote is from the MA page for "Caretaker", for those that are curious).

Oh, and by the way: "The Hatedom" remains one of the greatest myths of the modern age.

 

[Navaros]

And as soon as "Caretaker" was 30 mins done, most of those people wrote off the show as a total failure and only occasionally tuned it to heckle it.

I'm not sure if that is true, but if it is, there would be plenty of merit to that position. Caretaker definitely failed, and set the series up for total failure, at delivering Voyager's stated premise, by completely erasing the Maquis aspect from the show before the end of Caretaker. Can't blame people for recognizing that. It's a legitimate criticism.

 

[CoveTom]

Just look up any interviews Berman gave about the show, he'll mention that they can't just go to starbases to restock or resupply. Not Federation Starbases, but Starbases in total. As in, NO Starbases EVER Federation or not.

Oh for pity's sake. I'm realizing how pointless an exercise this is, and yet I continue...

You are reading way too much into things to try and make them fit your premise. How often have you heard someone use the term "starbase" to refer to a Klingon or a Romulan or a Cardassian space station? "Starbase" is almost interchangeable with "Federation starbase." That's obviously what Berman meant.

But, okay, let's even grant that your ridiculous interpretation is correct. Starbase only refers to space stations. That still doesn't mean that Voyager couldn't run into an alien ship and do some trading and exchange of goods. It doesn't mean that they couldn't beam down to an alien planet and get some help. Those aren't starbases.

 

[indolover]

As suggested by Withers, it's probably a good idea to bring this to its own thread instead of keeping on in the "A Voyager confession" thread.

The thread is about exactly what the topic asks.

What led to this can be found in this thread:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=113886&page=5

The premise held it back?

The premise of Voyager was arguably the best in all Trek series, period. It was pure Trek; to boldly go where no one has gone before. TOS may have laid this foundation, and whilst TNG was a kicking series, it essentially traversed existing Federation space. It did not travel in wholly unexplored territory.

The problems with Voyager, in my mind, where thus:

- Top-heavy character development. What did we know about Chakotay? What was his tribe? What was his language? Was it even a tribe that exists in the real world? My instinct tells me it was not. The writers simply thought it would be cool to have a native American as the ship's XO, despite the actual name/location of his tribe. IMO, the mishandling of Chakotay is a shame, since I think Beltran was the best actor in the show, by a country mile. The only one who could touch him, again IMO, was either Tim Russ or Picardo.

- Poor enemies, as has been touched upon earlier in the thread. How come the Voyager could lick up the Borg, yet both the Enterprises D and E could not? Both of Picard's ships were capital ships, and thus top of the line. How come then the Voyager, which by comparison with a Galaxy or Sovereign class vessel is woefully tactically inferior, compete with Borg? That to me makes no sense. It's not as if Janeway had any tactical experience anyhow. Sisko stands out among the Captains since he essentially ran the Dominion war effort. He discovered the Dominion, made first contact with the Founders, and more or less wrote the book on them. His strengths as a Starfleet Captain were as a military man; Janeway by comparison stood out as a science geek. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Archer weren't science geeks. lol.

 

[RyuRoots]

Well, don't tell it to me, I don't think the premise was at any fault. Just brought the thread here since we were pulling another one off-topic.

 

[Anwar]

The premise held it back?

Yes.

The premise of Voyager was arguably the best in all Trek series, period. It was pure Trek; to boldly go where no one has gone before.

No, it was "We're stuck far from home in a place where everyone strong enough wants to kill us for some reason. We can't replenish supplies and every scientific exploration we do is just to shave as much time as we can off our trip the hell out of here and back to safety."

- Poor enemies, as has been touched upon earlier in the thread. How come the Voyager could lick up the Borg, yet both the Enterprises D and E could not?

Because VOY had nowhere to escape to, and no one to back them up, and no technical wizardry to defend themselves with. Thus the plot had to be shaped in a way that got them out alive and without too much damage or death because the story couldn't afford to do that.

 

[Saito S]

The premise held it back?

Yes.

No.

No, it was "We're stuck far from home in a place where everyone strong enough wants to kill us for some reason. We can't replenish supplies and every scientific exploration we do is just to shave as much time as we can off our trip the hell out of here and back to safety."

No it was not. That's what YOU think it is, for reasons known only to you. The ACTUAL premise wasn't nearly so specific or binding. You have yet to provide ANY compelling reasoning (yet alone "evidence") that your version of the premise was, in fact, the premise, and have instead chosen to ignore our repeated requests that you do so.

Because VOY had nowhere to escape to, and no one to back them up, and no technical wizardry to defend themselves with. Thus the plot had to be shaped in a way that got them out alive and without too much damage or death because the story couldn't afford to do that.

This has been more than adequately refuted across multiple threads by multiple people, so I'm not even gonna touch it.

 

[Withers]

I'm also going to make an objection to the rehashing of old arguments that have been repeatedly refuted every time some poor soul wanders in unawares.


-Withers-​

 

[RyuRoots]

No, it was "We're stuck far from home in a place where everyone strong enough wants to kill us for some reason. We can't replenish supplies and every scientific exploration we do is just to shave as much time as we can off our trip the hell out of here and back to safety."

Except for the part how Janeway herself comes onscreen and outright says otherwise IN THE FIRST EPISODE.

And also except for how they DID do a bunch of exploring for the sake of exploring, which was even whined about by some ex-Maquis at least once.

For making a lot of arguments supposedly in Voyager's defense, you must not have watched a lot of it.

 

[Anwar]

Saito, are you really going to bring up the Borg thing again? You never did give me a straight counter to the "Voyager can't survive the Borg" thing aside from "get creative" or "why not?" In a straight-up confrontation (and given how constrained VOY's premise made it, there wasn't really an alternative to that), that is. And no, the answer wasn't "then don't use the Borg much!" either!

I haven't given proper reasoning? What do you consider proper reasoning because I've explained my stance on the premise many times these last few days.

Janeway DID say in the first episode that they'd be going around looking for whatever they could to ease their journey. This is what led to the exploring for the sake of exploring, which the Maquis whined about because they figured a direct bee-line home was more effective. They're both of the "get home as fast as we can" argument, just had some time reconciling just how to.

 

[RyuRoots]

Saito, are you really going to bring up the Borg thing again? You never did give me a straight counter to the "Voyager can't survive the Borg" thing aside from "get creative" or "why not?" In a straight-up confrontation (and given how constrained VOY's premise made it, there wasn't really an alternative to that), that is. And no, the answer wasn't "then don't use the Borg much!" either!

I haven't given proper reasoning? What do you consider proper reasoning because I've explained my stance on the premise many times these last few days.

If by "explain" you mean "change around and spew nonsense regarding and fail to understand what a premise is when talking about", then yes, you have VERY thoroughly explained.

Also Anwar, you seem to have missed something that we've all been saying. Yes, there are alternatives. That you are an apologist for bad writing does not mean that there were not. If Before Dishonor, Greater than the Sum, and Destiny can do unique Borg stories with creative solutions, then VOY sure as hell could've.

And Anwar, you are simply factually incorrect in that not using them as much IS a valid alternative. It worked for TNG. And they had an easy out from The Gift since they could use them as much or as little as the writers wanted since they were out of established Borg space.

 

[Anwar]

"Before Dishonor" and those other stories were about more than one lost ship, those stories couldn't have been told in VOY proper. Want better Borg stories, then don't have them be about one lone ship because the Borg don't work well in that kind of constrained story.

Don't use them after "The Gift"? And then what? I already pointed out how stories like the one where they rob another ship for resources wouldn't get anyone excited or willing to watch unless they used the Borg. NOTHING else was working. And it's all because the audience hated every non-Borg adversary VOY had (and no, it wasn't the writing).

 

[Withers]

And it's all because the audience hated every non-Borg adversary VOY had (and no, it wasn't the writing).

Then what the hell was it? Hmm? What possible motive could there be for disliking the execution of the villains other than they were poorly executed (i.e. written)? Why would someone who likes Star Trek dislike something that was good? Because of the philosophy of this so called "hatedom" that only exists in your mind? That's ridiculous.

If someone didn't like something about this show it can probably be traced back to the writing. No one had/has an "agenda" to discredit Voyager. It's Star Trek for Christ's sake- not Global Warming.


-Withers-​

 

[RyuRoots]

Don't use them after "The Gift"? And then what? I already pointed out how stories like the one where they rob another ship for resources wouldn't get anyone excited or willing to watch unless they used the Borg. NOTHING else was working. And it's all because the audience hated every non-Borg adversary VOY had (and no, it wasn't the writing).

You really don't read other people's posts, do you? I'll paste it here. Look over it and actually read it this time:

And they had an easy out from The Gift since they could use them as much or as little as the writers wanted since they were out of established Borg space.

Which means that they had a license to avoid them, but it still was in the realm of believability to encounter them in the future.

In layman's terms that means that you'd be able to do stories with them but you wouldn't have to do tons.

And I've already pointed out this particular piece of flawed logic, can you move on to another fallacy?

But whatever, here it is again: by your own logic, there would be nothing but Borg episodes ever if everyone reacted THAT negatively to every single second of non-Borg screentime as you seem to believe.