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The peace treaty

My instinct always had the Dominion War ending not unlike WW2 - Cardassia carved up like Germany into sectors, the Dominion stripped of much of its territory but culturally left more-or-less unchanged, like Japan.

The Breen, weirdly, don't fit into the scenario at all, but no parallel could be exact.
 
Why should the Dominion agree to more than a withdrawal to the GQ? And the Feds being allowed to dismantle the Dominion?! Why should they allow that? Those liberated worlds would seek revenge, turning on the Founders immediately. Who's gonna be there to protect the Founders ? The Federation?

The Dominion still happily sits there on the other end of the wormhole, fully intact, with the cure underway and Fed citizens being caught with attempting genocide.
The Founders would not agree to terms that endanger their species after all they went through.
Because simply saying F*ck You Feds and continue the War would be safer to them. What are the Feds going to do? Invade the GQ? Even destroying the rest of the Doms in the AQ would have cost them a substantial portion of their remaining fleets.

I think the peace terms mght be like this
- All Dominion forces return to the GQ in a given timeframe
- All Breen forces return to their territory in a given timeframe.
- Salome Jens stands trial for War Crimes.
- Dominion ships are only allowed n the AQ with permission from the allied powers, no Dominon colonies/members in the AQ allowed
- military Ships from athe AQ are not allowed in the GQ, no AQ colonies in the GQ
- Dominion pays reparations to Cardassians, Federation pays compensation for the actions of section 31
 
The fate of the Cardassian Union is obvious. The Klingons and Romulans no doubt took territory directly, and I doubt the Federation would have permitted anything but a Starfleet occupation and a Federation-clone government on Cardassia Prime following the war. I would expect full Federation membership within about three decades.
That's sort of what they went with in Star Trek Online. The Detapa Council has been reinstated, the Cardassian military dismantled and Starfleet is taking care of security in the Cardassian sector in its stead. People are expecting Cardassia to apply for Federation membership in the forseeable future.
Hooray!
 
Why should the Dominion agree to more than a withdrawal to the GQ? And the Feds being allowed to dismantle the Dominion?! Why should they allow that? Those liberated worlds would seek revenge, turning on the Founders immediately. Who's gonna be there to protect the Founders ? The Federation?

The Dominion still happily sits there on the other end of the wormhole, fully intact, with the cure underway and Fed citizens being caught with attempting genocide.
The Founders would not agree to terms that endanger their species after all they went through.
Because simply saying F*ck You Feds and continue the War would be safer to them. What are the Feds going to do? Invade the GQ? Even destroying the rest of the Doms in the AQ would have cost them a substantial portion of their remaining fleets.

I think the peace terms mght be like this
- All Dominion forces return to the GQ in a given timeframe
- All Breen forces return to their territory in a given timeframe.
- Salome Jens stands trial for War Crimes.
- Dominion ships are only allowed n the AQ with permission from the allied powers, no Dominon colonies/members in the AQ allowed
- military Ships from athe AQ are not allowed in the GQ, no AQ colonies in the GQ
- Dominion pays reparations to Cardassians, Federation pays compensation for the actions of section 31
The reason the Federation/Starfleet went to the AQ in the first place was to establish colonies, establish relations with AQ worlds and exploration? If memory serves the Dominion destoyed a Bajoran colony and then made contact with Bajor & the Federation. The Dominion didn't even try peaceful means to prevent a conflict.
The treaty should -allow colonies to be established in the GQ by the Bajorans and the winning allies.
-The Dominion fleet currently in the AQ will return to the GQ and be dismantled. The allied powers will take controil of shipyards within the GQ, any Dominion ships being built are to be scrapped or turned of to the allies to replace war losses.
The Dominion will not use polaron beam technology for offensive purposes, only defensive purposes. Houdini mines are abolished forever. The Breen will not use energy dissipator technology for offensive purposes, only defensive purposes.
-Both the Breen & Dominion will compensate Cardassia for damage and casualties suffered.

James
 
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I can't see any other way than the dominion giving total control over their empire in the GQ to the federation
At the negotiating table the feds and the allies held all the cards.
The Dominion’s expeditionary force was defeated and would be totally wiped out if needed albeit at a high casualty rate.
The Dominion reminds me a bit like modern day china a massive standing army but absolutely no way to get that army half way around the world to fight. Just like the Dominion has a massive fleet in the GQ (maybe) but no way to get at the federation and the AQ. and I don’t see major tech improvements any time soon
The feds would watch the founders suffer and eventually die by the hands of the manmade disease (assuming The Dominion didn’t find a cure) and try the female changeling for war crimes and after a couple of decades the Dominion would cease to exist. (Without their Gods) The Dominion I think would commit suicide or go on a killing spree, both wouldn’t affect the Federation and after a couple of decadesthe feds would send a few recognisance ships through the WH to test the waters

Or the founders pass all territories, ships and materials to the federation in the AQ. And the Federation cure the founders of their disease and can live protected by the new federation GQ fleet.
Either way the Dominion is a non entity
 
The worlds in the GQ had their own forms of governments before being conquered by the Dominion, let them reestablish their governments.
It has to be shown that the Founders/changelings aren't gods, relocate them to planets where they have to have contact with solids, establish rights for the changeling to live without fear of being harmed by solids, if need be relocate all of the changelings to a world in the AQ.
That still leaves the matter of the Jem'Hadar soldiers, what do you do with an army of several million soldiers bred for only one thing, fighting?

James
 
Jem'Hadar soldiers I believe can not reproduce on their own. What's their life span, was it ever stated? The Jem'Hadar problem could basically solve it self in only a few years.
 
Do any of you remember DS9 episode "Battle Lines"? The AQ allies could find a desolate planet, perhaps in the GQ and maroon the Jem'Hadar there, let the ketracel white run out, the Jem'Hadar will handle the rest.
I mean, what do you do with millions and millions of soldiers bred for nothing else but fighting and dying?

James
 
The fate of the Cardassian Union is obvious. The Klingons and Romulans no doubt took territory directly, and I doubt the Federation would have permitted anything but a Starfleet occupation and a Federation-clone government on Cardassia Prime following the war. I would expect full Federation membership within about three decades. Even if there weren't overt motives to occupy the CU, they'd wind up having to out of necessity since the CU has been completely economically and politically shattered. It's also likely the Feds would be nice to them, even if the Cardies did turn coat primarily because they were losing.

No they didn't. The 'dassians changed sides because they didn't like being ruled by the Dominion.


As for the Dominion, I think the previous posters are forgetting that the Federation and friends really had the Dominion by the balls--a total victory over the Alpha Quadrant assets of the Dominion and total control over the release of the changeling plague cure to the Gamma Quadrant, thanks to our friends the Prophets and a starship parked in front of the wormhole to prevent Odo from going to the GQ unless permitted. I imagine they demanded that the Dominion GQ fleet be completely disarmed and interned, and this occurred prior to the Federation, and more importantly the Klingons and Romulans, allowed Odo to go cure his people. Afterwards, I'd suspect the Vorta, Jem'Hadar, and Founder populations consolidated each with a planet or planets of their own that became Federation protectorates (because they would need the protection). Since all the Founders ever really wanted was protection from Solids (ideology of order aside), this isn't really a bad outcome for them.

What? The cure was given to stop the war in AQ. It didn't affect anything in the GQ.




Why do people seem to think that the Dominion Empire in GQ will be dismantled. The forces the Dominion had in AQ was a small part of the actual Empire and they nearly destroyed the three powers. If it wasn't for the 'dassians the war would have stopped at the border. Now we are meant to imagine that the Klingons,Romulans and the Federation will be able to stomp into Gamma Quadrant and give orders to the entire Dominion? Especially since the only thing stopping them from fighting is the idea that the Federation aren't genocidal manics who want all shape-shifters dead.
 
Reparations are meaningless to the moneyless Federation. I have no idea what terms the Romulans or Klingons wanted.
I thought we had already been through this several times, and listed all the evidence that Federation is certainly not "moneyless", since we've seen Starfleet officers use money many times, especially at DS9, and Federation has to use something in the trade with other worlds! But even if they really are using barter trade (which is almost impossible to believe, and would almost certainly preclude any trade with other worlds, which obviously do not use barter economy), what would that have to do with the reparations? If Federation wants to get reparations in something other than money, hey, all right, let them have it.

The fate of the Cardassian Union is obvious. The Klingons and Romulans no doubt took territory directly, and I doubt the Federation would have permitted anything but a Starfleet occupation and a Federation-clone government on Cardassia Prime following the war. I would expect full Federation membership within about three decades. Even if there weren't overt motives to occupy the CU, they'd wind up having to out of necessity since the CU has been completely economically and politically shattered. It's also likely the Feds would be nice to them, even if the Cardies did turn coat primarily because they were losing.
No they didn't. The 'dassians changed sides because they didn't like being ruled by the Dominion.
Exactly. The assertion that they were losing is even factually incorrect, since, as far as I remember, the Dominion was winning at the time.
 
I say leave the Dominion as they are. IMO, the entire Dominion War could have been averted, had the Federation ceased from exploring the Gamma Quadrant as soon as the Changelings were discovered to be the Founders.

It is after all the ethos of Starfleet, to not interfere with the normal workings of other cultures.

Besides, the Founders are the way they are due to their history. One lost war would not change the effect of thousands of years of persecution and mistreatment by "solids".
 
The fate of the Cardassian Union is obvious. The Klingons and Romulans no doubt took territory directly, and I doubt the Federation would have permitted anything but a Starfleet occupation and a Federation-clone government on Cardassia Prime following the war. I would expect full Federation membership within about three decades.
That's sort of what they went with in Star Trek Online. The Detapa Council has been reinstated, the Cardassian military dismantled and Starfleet is taking care of security in the Cardassian sector in its stead. People are expecting Cardassia to apply for Federation membership in the forseeable future.
Yuck. :cardie:

If Trek universe were real life, I'd want for Cardassia to recover and build a new society, but I certainly wouldn't want them to apply for membership in the Federation. There's something very uncomfortable about the idea of almost the entire Alpha Quadrant becoming part of the Federation. It makes me think of Eddington's speech from For the Cause about the Federation assimilating everyone like some sort of polished, insidious Borg.

In fictional terms, I feel nauseous at the idea of this kind of storytelling, where every world, no matter how devastated it has been and what horrible things it has been through, ends up soon seeing the light and becoming a lovely new addition to the ever-growing Federation. I prefer the direction that Andrew Robinson has last taken the story to (which, I suppose, should mean that the relaunch has to do it, too),
all hell has broken loose on Cardassia, and Alon Ghemor has been assassinated.
Seems a lot more realistic.
 
Reparations are meaningless to the moneyless Federation. I have no idea what terms the Romulans or Klingons wanted.
I thought we had already been through this several times, and listed all the evidence that Federation is certainly not "moneyless", since we've seen Starfleet officers use money many times, especially at DS9, and Federation has to use something in the trade with other worlds! But even if they really are using barter trade (which is almost impossible to believe, and would almost certainly preclude any trade with other worlds, which obviously do not use barter economy), what would that have to do with the reparations? If Federation wants to get reparations in something other than money, hey, all right, let them have it.

The fate of the Cardassian Union is obvious. The Klingons and Romulans no doubt took territory directly, and I doubt the Federation would have permitted anything but a Starfleet occupation and a Federation-clone government on Cardassia Prime following the war. I would expect full Federation membership within about three decades. Even if there weren't overt motives to occupy the CU, they'd wind up having to out of necessity since the CU has been completely economically and politically shattered. It's also likely the Feds would be nice to them, even if the Cardies did turn coat primarily because they were losing.
No they didn't. The 'dassians changed sides because they didn't like being ruled by the Dominion.
Exactly. The assertion that they were losing is even factually incorrect, since, as far as I remember, the Dominion was winning at the time.

At which time?

From what i saw, the progress of the war was so:

- From the Dominion/Cardassian takeover of DS9 to Operation Return - Dominion advantage

- From Operation Return to the 1st Battle of Chintoka - Fed/Klingon advantage

- From 1st Battle of Chintoka to counter-measure to the Breen weapon - Dominion advantage

- From the development of the counter measure to the Breen weapon to the final battle for Cardassia and Dominion surrender - Fed/Klingon/Romulan advantage
 
Reparations are meaningless to the moneyless Federation. I have no idea what terms the Romulans or Klingons wanted.
I thought we had already been through this several times, and listed all the evidence that Federation is certainly not "moneyless", since we've seen Starfleet officers use money many times, especially at DS9, and Federation has to use something in the trade with other worlds! But even if they really are using barter trade (which is almost impossible to believe, and would almost certainly preclude any trade with other worlds, which obviously do not use barter economy), what would that have to do with the reparations? If Federation wants to get reparations in something other than money, hey, all right, let them have it.

No they didn't. The 'dassians changed sides because they didn't like being ruled by the Dominion.
Exactly. The assertion that they were losing is even factually incorrect, since, as far as I remember, the Dominion was winning at the time.

At which time?

From what i saw, the progress of the war was so:

- From the Dominion/Cardassian takeover of DS9 to Operation Return - Dominion advantage

- From Operation Return to the 1st Battle of Chintoka - Fed/Klingon advantage

- From 1st Battle of Chintoka to counter-measure to the Breen weapon - Dominion advantage

- From the development of the counter measure to the Breen weapon to the final battle for Cardassia and Dominion surrender - Fed/Klingon/Romulan advantage


The Dominion at the end was still powerful enough to cause a massive amount of damage to the Alliance. That is why the female changeling was given the cure. To stop the Alliance from winning a victory that would leave them weak.
 
And Stauffenburg tried to kill Hitler because he'd always been a pacifist.

There was no inkling of a Cardassian resistance until the Cardassians had, effectively, lost the war, although I'll grant they also lost the faith of the Founders in their ability to prosecute it effectively. Only when the Allies started making inroads into CU territory on one hand and the Dominion started selling CU space for Breen wunderwaffen did a will to "free themselves" develop.

At least, that's as far as canon goes. Maybe there was a civilian resistance against Dukat when he came in with a Dominion fleet. It would not surprise me either way; but of course, if any such thing existed, it wasn't very effective. The Cardassian resistance only became effective once military officers, previously cheerfully prosecuting a war of vengeance on the Federation, Klingons, and Bajorans, realized that they weren't going to win.
 
And Stauffenburg tried to kill Hitler because he'd always been a pacifist.

There was no inkling of a Cardassian resistance until the Cardassians had, effectively, lost the war, although I'll grant they also lost the faith of the Founders in their ability to prosecute it effectively. Only when the Allies started making inroads into CU territory on one hand and the Dominion started selling CU space for Breen wunderwaffen did a will to "free themselves" develop.

At least, that's as far as canon goes. Maybe there was a civilian resistance against Dukat when he came in with a Dominion fleet. It would not surprise me either way; but of course, if any such thing existed, it wasn't very effective. The Cardassian resistance only became effective once military officers, previously cheerfully prosecuting a war of vengeance on the Federation, Klingons, and Bajorans, realized that they weren't going to win.
Excuse me, weren't the Breen offered several Cardassian controlled worlds if they'd join the Dominion!?
And am I mistaken or not but while Dukat was alive, the Dominion didnt give away Cardassian planets?

James
 
I haven't seen the episode in a long time, so if I'm wrong, someone is sure to correct me, and rightly so, but didn't Odo transmit some kind of knowledge to the female founder, along with the cure? Something she had never considered regarding both 'solids' and the Federation? And didn't he then transmit the same knowledge to the Great Link?
 
And Stauffenburg tried to kill Hitler because he'd always been a pacifist.

There was no inkling of a Cardassian resistance until the Cardassians had, effectively, lost the war, although I'll grant they also lost the faith of the Founders in their ability to prosecute it effectively. Only when the Allies started making inroads into CU territory on one hand and the Dominion started selling CU space for Breen wunderwaffen did a will to "free themselves" develop.

At least, that's as far as canon goes. Maybe there was a civilian resistance against Dukat when he came in with a Dominion fleet. It would not surprise me either way; but of course, if any such thing existed, it wasn't very effective. The Cardassian resistance only became effective once military officers, previously cheerfully prosecuting a war of vengeance on the Federation, Klingons, and Bajorans, realized that they weren't going to win.
Um... how were they losing the war? The Dominion was winning, so if they wanted to 'stick to the winner', why would they rebel against the winning side they were allied with?

What they had, in fact, lost, was independence. They had mistakenly believed that they could use the Dominion to make Cardassia more powerful, and it took a while for it to become obvious - as Damar was losing any semblance of power and the Dominion leaders were acting less and less subtle about it - that they had actually allowed Dominion to occupy them without a battle.
 
In fictional terms, I feel nauseous at the idea of this kind of storytelling, where every world, no matter how devastated it has been and what horrible things it has been through, ends up soon seeing the light and becoming a lovely new addition to the ever-growing Federation.
While I agree Cardassia's rebuilding and reformation absolutely shouldn't be easy, I don't see the problem with Cardassia down the road - not in the immediate future, of course - joining the Federation. Even with all it's flaws, the benefits of Federation membership should be obvious to a future, hopefully reformed and democratic, Cardassia. After all, post-WW2 Germany was and is at the core of European unification.
Um... how were they losing the war? The Dominion was winning, so if they wanted to 'stick to the winner', why would they rebel against the winning side they were allied with?

With the exception of the brief offensive thanks to the Breen weapon, I don't think the Dominion was in a winning position since the entry of the Romulans in the war (or even the retaking of DS9). They may have been winning that final battle in the sense that the Feds etc. were unable to break their lines but the Fed Alliance clearly had an upper hand at that point of the war (which is why the Dominion decided to retreat to Cardassian space and shorten it's defensive lines).
What they had, in fact, lost, was independence.
I think both points are actually right here. They did lose their independence but that was largely the result of their side losing the war. Had the war been going in the Dominion's favor, I'm sure the Cardassians would be given much more leeway by the Doms and would thus have no reason to rebel.

As for the original question, i'm in the no-Dominion-unconditional-surrender camp. The Feds and their allies were already streched to the max, in no shape to risk further war by blackmailing the Great Link. In any case, I don't even think the Great Link would have agreed to the terms. The possibility of the cure wasn't enough to convince Salome Jens to end the war, it took, as someone pointed above, Odo sharing his experiences (including, importantly, his love for Kira and her love for him) and through the link 'convincing' her to end the war. Even if the Link agreed, like I said, the Alliance is already busy as it is preserving the fragile victory in the AQ and in no position to project force deep into the GQ.

Aside from that, from a purely storytelling POV, I would find the complete and forced dismantling of the Dominion unsatisfactory. It's too easy and clean and gives too much power and importance to the Federation on a galactic scale.

OTOH, I don't think the Dominion can simply continue as it is in the GQ. Despite their strength, their military loses were still significant, and perhaps more importantly, the morale blow of a first major defeat in their history and the near-extinction of the Founders as well as Odo's reforming influence should cause quite a lot of change. So, what I would find much more satisfactory would be the GQ in a state of turmoil, with the subjugated races rebeling, old rivalries resurfacing, the Dominion itself undergoing a serious inner strugle with the Feds on the sidelines, gradually reentering the GQ and balancing between helping the rebels, protecting the Founders from revenge, keeping the GQ from descending into chaos (and the chaos spilling into AQ), finding a solution for the servant races (and I don't accept just 'we'll let them die', that's not the Trek way) and helping Odo in his attempts at reforming the Great Link.
 
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And Stauffenburg tried to kill Hitler because he'd always been a pacifist.

There was no inkling of a Cardassian resistance until the Cardassians had, effectively, lost the war, although I'll grant they also lost the faith of the Founders in their ability to prosecute it effectively. Only when the Allies started making inroads into CU territory on one hand and the Dominion started selling CU space for Breen wunderwaffen did a will to "free themselves" develop.

At least, that's as far as canon goes. Maybe there was a civilian resistance against Dukat when he came in with a Dominion fleet. It would not surprise me either way; but of course, if any such thing existed, it wasn't very effective. The Cardassian resistance only became effective once military officers, previously cheerfully prosecuting a war of vengeance on the Federation, Klingons, and Bajorans, realized that they weren't going to win.
Um... how were they losing the war? The Dominion was winning, so if they wanted to 'stick to the winner', why would they rebel against the winning side they were allied with?

Wormhole aliens. Whole Alpha and Beta Quadrants arrayed against them. Dominion pushed back into Cardassian space as of "Tears of the Prophets." The Dominion was losing right up until the Breen showed up, and even then were stalemated by the Klingons alone despite their new wunderwaffe. The scale never seemed to tip in the Dominion's favor, at least to me, even with the Breen. The Allies were gonna win, probably even before the Romulans joined. I mean, when has Starfleet failed to innovate a defense to a new weapon? Even the characters appeared to realize that the Breen advantage was a very temporary one. YMMV, of course. :)

What they had, in fact, lost, was independence. They had mistakenly believed that they could use the Dominion to make Cardassia more powerful, and it took a while for it to become obvious - as Damar was losing any semblance of power and the Dominion leaders were acting less and less subtle about it - that they had actually allowed Dominion to occupy them without a battle.
Okay, I'll split the difference with you--that was a factor. Nevertheless, I suspect that if the Dominion was outright slaughtering the Allies, that--firstly--the Doms wouldn't have become so haughty with the Cardassians, since it seems their perception of being failed by the Cards was the major reason the Vorta and Founders engaged the Breen and brought them in with territorial concessions, necessitating a tighter grip on Cardassian society, and--secondly and consequently--Damar and co. would not have been so keen to throw off the Dominion yoke, because whatever they were losing in autonomy was being repaid with revenge and with great new conquests.

I mean, the entire resistance was made up of fascists, albeit with a somewhat rapid heel face turn by Damar when he shot that racist guy, which was probably more about recognizing the inevitable dominance of the Federation (and the imposition of its values on Cardassia), than any deep-seated ideological shift.

neozeks said:
Aside from that, from a purely storytelling POV, I would find the complete and forced dismantling of the Dominion unsatisfactory. It's too easy and clean and gives too much power and importance to the Federation on a galactic scale.

Heck, that's why I do like it. It would sort of reflect the real-life paramouncy (tenuous as it is) of the United States. Additionally, I wouldn't particularly want to see a Second Dominion War--I thought they pretty much nailed it, narratively, the first time--or a Cold War between the Dominion and Federation, so the destruction of the Dominion would remove a threat that the Federation would have to structure every decision around forever otherwise.

On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily want to see the Federation getting into endless entanglements in the GQ, either, which is probably what a liberated Dominion would entail. Still, I'd rather see that--perhaps with the GQ as an analogue of the developing world (if WW2 began the process of decolonization, the Dominion War could see a bazillion new states popping into being), were it done well. I have no idea how the DS9R books did it. One of these days I gotta read those.
 
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