A Voyager confession

[Withers]

I actually think that question deserves its own thread: Was the Voyager Premise a Hindrance?

I'm also going to go on record to say that I don't think Voyager was "the worst thing ever" either and I never said that. It could've been done better. It had problems that I found, more or less, inexcusable based on the fact that those same problems were avoided in other incarnations. When you stack it next to the Trek I did like I don't much care for Voyager. When you stack it against Andromeda or Babylon 5 I absolutely love it.

But yeah- that idea of the premise being responsible for what was ultimately lackluster (in the eyes of the majority) deserves its own thread.


-Withers-​

 

[RyuRoots]

I actually think that question deserves its own thread: Was the Voyager Premise a Hindrance?

I'm also going to go on record to say that I don't think Voyager was "the worst thing ever" either and I never said that. It could've been done better. It had problems that I found, more or less, inexcusable based on the fact that those same problems were avoided in other incarnations. When you stack it next to the Trek I did like I don't much care for Voyager. When you stack it against Andromeda or Babylon 5 I absolutely love it.

But yeah- that idea of the premise being responsible for what was ultimately lackluster (in the eyes of the majority) deserves its own thread.


-Withers-​

That's a fine idea. Done and done.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=3855581#post3855581

 

[kimc]

The problem with VOY is that it actively contradicts what we've been told and shown about the Borg's strength and resourcefulness when you can go hunt them in the Delta Flyer with little ill effect.

VOY didn't contradict anything, the DF had been upgraded with plot contrivance tech for the sole purpose of mincing the Borg.

Sorry, but the de-fanging of the Borg started long before that. When the U.S.S. Equinox showed up, Capt. Ransom said something to the effect of, "The Borg? We haven't seen so much as a cube."

I'd say the defanging started when TNG introduced the concept of a borg queen. Before that, the frightening thing about the borg is they were autotrons with no will aside from assimilation. Now you have a "queen" who is just another tin pot dictator and there goes the mystique. (Of course this also begs the question of why they didn't Picard to act as mouthpiece during the series but that's another discussion).

 

[Anwar]

What, the Cybermen can have their various Cyber-Kings, Cyber-Queens and Cyber-Emperors but the Borg can't have their higher-up Borg? They are both Collectives so why the double standard?

 

[Saito S]

I'd say the defanging started when TNG introduced the concept of a borg queen. Before that, the frightening thing about the borg is they were autotrons with no will aside from assimilation. Now you have a "queen" who is just another tin pot dictator and there goes the mystique. (Of course this also begs the question of why they didn't Picard to act as mouthpiece during the series but that's another discussion).

While I think the Queen - as a singular character - was handled much better in FC than in Voyager, purely in terms of writing, I agree with you in concept. She more or less worked in the movie... barely. But I would prefer it if they hadn't introduced the concept of a Queen at all, because the Borg's initial concept was better off without her (they were like a hurricane; it's nothing personal, but you'd best get out of the way). It wasn't quite enough to have a significant negative impact on my enjoyment of the movie as a whole, but... I wish they hadn't done it.

Picard being assimilated to act as the mouthpiece, however, I never had a problem with. The Borg assimilate people, it's what they do (granted, this was in itself a change from what we were shown of them in "Q Who", but I thought it was a good one, since it made them much more menacing), and having Picard act as this sort of corrupted go-between made sense in light of their goals. Sure, they can plow through fleets, but having Locutus around still would make the assimilation of the entire Federation easier in the long run, and the Borg certainly seem to value efficiency.

All of that said, the use of the Queen in the Destiny novel trilogy presented a really fascinating, well-done take on the idea behind that character. Just another reason why Destiny is freakin amazing.

What, the Cybermen can have their various Cyber-Kings, Cyber-Queens and Cyber-Emperors but the Borg can't have their higher-up Borg?

What?

They are both Collectives so why the double standard?

What?

What are you talking about? Who in the flying fark are "the Cybermen"? What Cyber-Royalty are you referring to? Who is holding a double standard with regards to what?

 

[Anwar]

The Cybermen are Doctor Who villains who (possibly) were the inspiration for the Borg in the first place: A race of humanoids who turned themselves into cyborgs and now went around cyber-converting every sentient race they encountered. They also have "leaders" despite being a single-minded collective, Cyber-kings/Cyber-Queens/Cyber-Emperors. So why is it no one complains that THEM having a leader type who commands the others is bad and contrary to their basic idea yet Trek gets nothing but Hell for introducing the Queen?

 

[Saito S]

The Cybermen are Doctor Who villains who (possibly) were the inspiration for the Borg in the first place: A race of humanoids who turned themselves into cyborgs and now went around cyber-converting every sentient race they encountered. They also have "leaders" despite being a single-minded collective, Cyber-kings/Cyber-Queens/Cyber-Emperors. So why is it no one complains that THEM having a leader type who commands the others is bad and contrary to their basic idea yet Trek gets nothing but Hell for introducing the Queen?

First of all, "nothing but hell" is a bit much.

Ok... how is that even relevant? Why on Earth would you ever look at two different works of fiction, note that both works have a similar element within them (cyborg baddies, in this case), and then expect that because those elements are there for both shows, anything that works for ONE show with regard to those elements must automatically work for the OTHER show? They are different shows with different priorities, storytelling styles, and universes/backstories.

Just because a sci-fi story has a large, multi-planetary, tyrannical empire doesn't mean that everything that worked to define the character of the Galactic Empire from Star Wars would work for this other empire in this other story. I've never seen much Doctor Who, I don't care about the Cybermen, and I don't feel the need to draw any comparisons to them. I feel that with the way the Borg were presented in Trek, introducing the Queen was a bad creative decision. Period.

 

[Anwar]

Nothing but Hell is an understatement, if anything.

Why? Would you have been happier if the Borg decided to maintain a "Locutus" by having one drone of whatever particular species they were attacking act as their figurehead? Would you have been happier if the Queen's voice was the same as the Collective voice we heard all the time and she always said "we" in place of "I"?

And no, you can't say "No Queen". This is in the case where the Queen permanently stayed part of the Trekverse after FC. You can't have the Borg show up repeatedly as an antagonist and just be a bunch of zombies, they need something to be an actual adversary on a personal level. Villains without the personal factor are sucky villains. There are enough complaints about VOY fighting villains who just shot at them as is.

 

[Withers]

Hey, there's a good idea for another thread. One of you should make the "Voyager Borg" thread. (I feel bad for the original posted of this thread who has had to watch it completely veer off topic at least three times )

Seriously though that deserves its own thread before this goes on much further. Voyager Borg- did they do what they had to do, could they have done better, are they to blame for the deballing of the Borg or is that FC's fault? Go-go-go!


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Either you or Saito should do it, I'd probably be too biased in the OP post.

 

[Saito S]

Nothing but Hell is an understatement, if anything.

So, if "nothing but hell" is more than just accurate, it's an UNDERSTATEMENT, then man, there really must just be NO ONE except you who doesn't froth at the mouth with rage whenever the Queen is brought up, eh?

She more or less worked in the movie... barely. But I would prefer it if they hadn't introduced the concept of a Queen at all, because the Borg's initial concept was better off without her (they were like a hurricane; it's nothing personal, but you'd best get out of the way). It wasn't quite enough to have a significant negative impact on my enjoyment of the movie as a whole, but... I wish they hadn't done it.

OH WAIT

Why? Would you have been happier if the Borg decided to maintain a "Locutus" by having one drone of whatever particular species they were attacking act as their figurehead?

Of course not. The Federation is VAST, and fairly powerful. And they were trying to assimilate it with a minimum of risk and expended resources (only one cube). Not every race they go after would present this kind of challenge.

Would you have been happier if the Queen's voice was the same as the Collective voice we heard all the time and she always said "we" in place of "I"?

The Queen could have her own voice, but having her say "we" would have been good, yes. One idea a friend of mine suggested that I like would be to have "the Queen" in FC exist only as the combined thoughts and data of the collective, with no physical form.

And no, you can't say "No Queen". This is in the case where the Queen permanently stayed part of the Trekverse after FC.

Well, once the Queen was introduced, I accepted it. It's STILL not what I would have done, had I been in charge, but whatever; it's done. And as I said, I thought they skated by in FC. She worked well enough. I thought her appearances in VOY were awful, though.

You can't have the Borg show up repeatedly as an antagonist and just be a bunch of zombies, they need something to be an actual adversary on a personal level.

You mean like how they GAVE them a greater degree of personal threat with the idea of assimilating people (and gave Picard a personal trauma by assimilating him)? And besides, the Borg weren't JUST "a bunch of zombies" to begin with.

Villains without the personal factor are sucky villains. There are enough complaints about VOY fighting villains who just shot at them as is.

Correction: villains without depth are sucky villains. That's why the Kazon sucked (despite having a "personal connection"; Cullah seemed pretty madly obsessed with Voyager, and of course there's Seska), but the Vidiians, the Krenim, and the Hirogen were all pretty damn cool (as was Species 8472, before they ruined them). A "personal" factor is NOT required in a Trek-like setting for villains to be good.

Back to the Queen: As I've mentioned before, the novel Greater Than the Sum told a fantastic Borg story that didn't have the Queen in it at all. Destiny also told a fantastic Borg story, and while the Queen was in it, her role was FAR less significant than it was in FC or Voyager. And lest I forget: "Scorpion", the best Voyager Borg ep by far (maybe the best televised Borg story, period... maybe). The Queen was a total no-show. So no, the Queen is not "required" to sustain good Borg-centric stories.

And by the way: you didn't actually address the questions I posed in my last post.

Hey, there's a good idea for another thread. One of you should make the "Voyager Borg" thread. (I feel bad for the original posted of this thread who has had to watch it completely veer off topic at least three times )

Seriously though that deserves its own thread before this goes on much further. Voyager Borg- did they do what they had to do, could they have done better, are they to blame for the deballing of the Borg or is that FC's fault? Go-go-go!​

​

That's probably a good idea, actually.

EDIT: Done. http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=3860816#post3860816

 

[Anwar]

Like I said, with the Cybermen they have "Leader" types whom the others get orders from in practically every episode. Cyber-Kings, Cyber-Queens and even super-Cyber-Emperors. WHY is it that they can do this and still be an assimilating threat while the Borg can't do a similar thing without it being a letdown? There are differences, I admit: Each Cyberman is capable of speech and action while separated from the others, and it's more their mission of assimilating all life that makes them a "Collective" than just not talking and being ant-like. But surely that's can't be all. The concepts are too similar.

So until there's a hard answer, this is mere double standard. Like most VOY criticism.

The Borg threat of assimilation isn't a personal threat, it's a general threat. And what they did to Picard is limited to the TNG cast and not anyone else who encounters them. You're right, they were more like ants than zombies.

I've gone over, in several threads spanning several months, how the audience hated the Vidiians, Hirogen, Krenim and the 8472. The Fandom/Hatedom had become exceedingly difficult to please by VOY, which is easy for anyone to admit.

But yes, having the villains be able to interact with the VOY crew more than just some disembodied voice is required for a better portrayal of a villain. And "Scorpion" only works because it had another enemy to play the Borg off of. And even then they needed Seven for the story to work, so again the adversary required a personal level.

 

[Saito S]

Like I said, with the Cybermen they have "Leader" types whom the others get orders from in practically every episode. Cyber-Kings, Cyber-Queens and even super-Cyber-Emperors. WHY is it that they can do this and still be an assimilating threat while the Borg can't do a similar thing without it being a letdown? There are differences, I admit: Each Cyberman is capable of speech and action while separated from the others, and it's more their mission of assimilating all life that makes them a "Collective" than just not talking and being ant-like. But surely that's can't be all. The concepts are too similar.

Totally irrelevant. It's a completely different show with ONE very similar element. Just because it works for Doctor Who does NOT (N-O-T) mean it will work for Star Trek. Just because something works in Star Wars doesn't mean it would work in Babylon 5. Just because something works in The Lord of the Rings doesn't mean it would work in Record of Lodoss War. Fiction does not work like that.

So until there's a hard answer, this is mere double standard.

Oh come on! Double standard?? Seriously? Think about this for a minute, dude.

A double standard is when one criticizes person A for doing something, yet lets person B off the hook for doing the exact same thing. It's not a double standard because I never watched Doctor Who. (I think I've maybe seen one episode, but I don't remember anything about it, it was so long ago.) I'm not "letting them off the hook" for having cyborg civilizations with kings and queens by not complaining about it. I'm not complaining about it because I never saw it. For all I know, the "cyborg royalty" aspect was really well done, or it could have been horrid. I neither know nor care.

Like most VOY criticism.

Very little if any of the criticism that I have either seen leveled against Voyager or have leveled against it myself can fairly be attributed to a double standard.

The Borg threat of assimilation isn't a personal threat, it's a general threat. And what they did to Picard is limited to the TNG cast and not anyone else who encounters them.

Uhh... So, assimilation - which can happen to any individual, at any time, and represented something that could be a threat to just one person at a time (unlike in "Q Who", where they basically only threatened the ship as a whole), that threat "isn't personal." AT THE SAME TIME, the collective assimilating Picard is SO personal that its fallout is limited only to the TNG crew (Sisko and the other survivors of Wolf 359 would disagree, by the way). Right.

You're right, they were more like ants than zombies.

Individual drones? Yes, very much so. Techno-zombie-ants.
The Borg as a whole, however - the threat as a whole, the civilization as a whole, the collective as a whole - are far more interesting than actual ants or zombies could ever be, with or without a queen.

I've gone over, in several threads spanning several months, how the audience hated the Vidiians, Hirogen, Krenim and the 8472. The Fandom/Hatedom had become exceedingly difficult to please by VOY, which is easy for anyone to admit.

There was some Trek burnout in general, I'll admit (it's not like DS9 had great ratings either). But if the show as a whole had been better, it would have been well received. I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this mysterious "Hatedom" you talk about so much even EXISTED, let alone that they somehow were SO vocal and influential with their vitriol that it affected the decisions the writers made about whether or not to re-use a given villain. And those four Voyager races we both referenced ARE cool. I wasn't always happy with how they were used (and I thought having the Think Tank be like "Oh, yeah, we cured the phage, no big deal" was a silly way to close out the Vidiian story), but they were all good villain races. 8472 was ruined BY the writers in their later appearances. No excuses. They had a great villain, then they botched it. Bad writing does just HAPPEN sometimes, and not just in Trek, but in general.

But yes, having the villains be able to interact with the VOY crew more than just some disembodied voice is required for a better portrayal of a villain. And "Scorpion" only works because it had another enemy to play the Borg off of. And even then they needed Seven for the story to work, so again the adversary required a personal level.

Here I must backstep a bit, because I misinterpreted what you meant by "personal" earlier to imply some kind of direct connection between protagonist and antagonist (like a vendetta, or some such). Not sure how I got that idea, but whatever... If that HAD been what you meant, I would stick by what I said, but it's not, so you're essentially right. ALL conflicts have some measure of "personal involvement", even if it's as simple as "Hey, we really don't want you to blow up our ship, cause then we'll die". But I maintain that a single, identifiable, "He/she is the BAD GUY! Kill him/her and we win!" kind of presence is not strictly necessary.

With that, I'm going to not post any more in this thread about this topic, because we really should move it over. Though, we ended up with two "Voyager Borg" threads, one from me and one from Withers...lol I'm not partial to which one gets used (though no one has posted in either one yet), but one of them should probably be deleted. Unless I'm completely missing something, I can't delete my own thread.