startrekrcks
Fleet Captain
will Kirk need a mentor, can't he be able to do things
Should Pike be The President of The Federation In The Next Movie?
- Thread starter Aike
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In what way is "Sarek is an ambassador" and "Sarek is not the political type" even remotely compatible statements?
That he was brave and selfless, willing to sacrifice himself to save cadet trainees under his charge during an accident, obviously.
No, the point of "The Cage" was that Pike had to work himself into an emotional volatile state -- that he's normally a very reserved, intellectual person, and that the Talosians used that to control him. Only when he broke from his normal pattern of behavior by giving into his anger was he able to overcome them.
And that he's a Deeply Moral Mentor (TM). His personal integrity and bravery was very clearly established by his willingness to sacrifice himself to save the Enterprise, and his good judgment of others' character was confirmed by his judging Kirk to be capable of becoming a great officer.
He put a phaser to a Talosian's head as a way of liberating himself from imprisonment.
Of course he wouldn't commit genocide.
Um. What? Ambassadorships are inherently political. In fact, we've almost never seen Sarek outside of the context of politics. He was introduced as a politician whose influence would decide whether or not Coridan joined the Federation in "Journey to Babel;" he spent Star Trek IV arguing with the Klingon government over the fate of James T. Kirk and the nature of the Genesis Device; he was the person who proposed the detente with the Klingon Empire in Star Trek VI; in "Sarek," he was there to negotiate with a foreign culture. He's spent most of his screen time doing political things. He's a political type.
Sci, I'm not really sure where the disconnect is here. Pike is clearly a man of principle and an absolute "do what is necessary, no matter what" type of character. In that way he somewhat reminds me of Alyana Nechayev of Ben Sisko: hardcore go-to guys who always get the job done, whatever the cost.
Nechayev, who once attempted to use a computer virus to annihilate the Borg entirely; Sisko who ordered the demolition of the wormhole to prevent a Dominion fleet from entering it (and earlier went against orders and risked his life to PERSONALLY demolish it in a Dominion reality simulation).
You seem to agree that Pike fits that general profile, so I guess what I'm not seeing is how this profile is inconsistent with the man putting his own ass on the line to do what he truly thought was necessary. I'm not even saying he'd pull a "precious bodily fluids" and order a fleet to attack Romulus... actually, I think after what Pike's been through he's fairly likely to a pull a Ben Maxwell whether the next movie focusses on this or not.
Nechayev, who once attempted to use a computer virus to annihilate the Borg entirely; Sisko who ordered the demolition of the wormhole to prevent a Dominion fleet from entering it (and earlier went against orders and risked his life to PERSONALLY demolish it in a Dominion reality simulation).
You seem to agree that Pike fits that general profile, so I guess what I'm not seeing is how this profile is inconsistent with the man putting his own ass on the line to do what he truly thought was necessary. I'm not even saying he'd pull a "precious bodily fluids" and order a fleet to attack Romulus... actually, I think after what Pike's been through he's fairly likely to a pull a Ben Maxwell whether the next movie focusses on this or not.
I suppose, in a way. But I don't view them as exactly the same. It takes quite a different mindset to be President (any kind) than a diplomat/negotiator. Sarek is best at the latter, I think. I don't think he would want to run the entire Federation.
That being said, I'm still not sure why Vulcan, a Federation member world, needs an ambassador *to* that Federation.
Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that an ambassador is by definition a political person, though.
That being said, I'm still not sure why Vulcan, a Federation member world, needs an ambassador *to* that Federation.
Well, to be accurate, ST09 establishes Sarek to have been Vulcan Ambassador to United Earth -- presumably a successor, therefore, of Ambassador Soval from ENT -- not Vulcan Ambassador to the United Federation of Planets.
TOS and the TOS films never make it clear who he's working for or to whom he is representing who he's working for. We can't use "Journey to Babel" to figure these things out, because "Journey" establishes that the Babel Conference (where the decision of Coridan's entry into the Federation is to be determined by representatives of Federation Member States rather than by the Federation Council) is an extraordinary measure convened to avoid a Federation civil war. In the films, he's called the "Vulcan Ambassador," but it's unclear if he's an ambassador of Vulcan to whoever, or a Federation Ambassador who happens to be Vulcan.
As for why there are ambassadors between Federation Member States... my guess would be that it's either an example of institutional inertia -- ambassadors between Member worlds being unabolished after the Federation was founded, perhaps initially out of necessity but then out of tradition -- or simply that, the Federation is so huge that it has a set of guidelines that Member worlds can use to conduct relations between one-another without having to go through the Federation government, thereby freeing the Federation government itself to worry about matters of common concern rather than matters relating only to bilateral relations between Federation Members.
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I'm still not sure why Vulcan, a Federation member world, needs an ambassador *to* that Federation.
Well, to be accurate, ST09 establishes Sarek to have been Vulcan Ambassador to United Earth -- presumably a predecessor, therefore, of Ambassador Soval from ENT -- not Vulcan Ambassador to the United Federation of Planets.
It does?
I don't remember that.It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for Sarek to be ambassador to Earth anyway. Not only because Vulcan and Earth are both Federation members, but Sarek couldn't have had that position since before the Federation was founded, since I believe he was not, technically, born at the time.
I'm still not sure why Vulcan, a Federation member world, needs an ambassador *to* that Federation.
Well, to be accurate, ST09 establishes Sarek to have been Vulcan Ambassador to United Earth -- presumably a predecessor, therefore, of Ambassador Soval from ENT -- not Vulcan Ambassador to the United Federation of Planets.
It does?
"As Ambassador to Earth it is my duty to observe and understand human behavior." The scene with Little!Spock after the school fight.
See above re: speculation for why the Federation might have its Member establish bilateral diplomatic missions in order to help manage the sheer size of the U.F.P.
but Sarek couldn't have had that position since before the Federation was founded, since I believe he was not, technically, born at the time.
See, that's what happens when you post at 1:30 AM -- you write "predecessor" when you mean "successor." Oops.
Will edit.
Speaking of Vulcans and ambassadors and stuff: Is it confirmed that Solkar (the first Vulcan ambassador to Earth, and Sarek's grandfather) is the Vulcan captain of the T'plana'hath from ST:FC? I heard that once, but I don't know if there's any evidence for it.
It's not in the canon, but the recent ENT novel The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing establishes that the captain of the T'Plana-Hath seen at the end of Star Trek: First Contact was, indeed, Solkar, Sarek's grandfather. The ENT novel "The Catwalk" did establish that Solkar was the first Vulcan Ambassador to Earth, though.
I'd like to add one other quality about Capt. Pike that no one has yet mentioned (that I've read), which made him a great leader and would be a help as a President. In a crisis, he can think clearly, calmly, and intelligently. Within seconds of Nero signing off after "inviting" Pike to the Nerada, he had come up with the space jump plan. The camera is on his face for those seconds, and you can almost see his brain working. Like Kirk, he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios, and in a flash he came up with an idea to win, if not for himself, at least for his ship, his crew, and the people of Vulcan. (That it didn't help Vulcan much was not his fault, as the black hole device wasn't something he knew about.)
So, lets add that to the Deeply Moral Mentor quality. At least with Pike we'd have a politician of both integrity and intelligence.
Oh, wait. That rules him out as a politician, doesn't it...?
So, lets add that to the Deeply Moral Mentor quality. At least with Pike we'd have a politician of both integrity and intelligence.
Oh, wait. That rules him out as a politician, doesn't it...?
The vices of politicians are merely the vices of the average person, exposed to the public.
So unlikely is not even funny
I'm still not sure why Vulcan, a Federation member world, needs an ambassador *to* that Federation.
Well, to be accurate, ST09 establishes Sarek to have been Vulcan Ambassador to United Earth -- presumably a predecessor, therefore, of Ambassador Soval from ENT -- not Vulcan Ambassador to the United Federation of Planets.
It does?
It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for Sarek to be ambassador to Earth anyway. Not only because Vulcan and Earth are both Federation members, but Sarek couldn't have had that position since before the Federation was founded, since I believe he was not, technically, born at the time.
Well, it sorta depends on what you think the Federation actually is, too. In TOS/TMP days, the Federation was thought of as a somewhat more cohesive version of the U.N.. It's possible that's just the way the Federation was in the 23rd century before it evolved into something alot more unified in the 24th. If individual worlds still retain a certain degree of sovereignty that trumps Federtion law more often than not, than Vulcan has an embassy on Earth for the same reason England and France would have one in New York despite the U.N. building also being in New York.
Indeed; I don't think I could pull off--much less get away with--skipping out on both my job and my family to run off to fuck my girlfriend in Argentina without telling anyone where I'm going. I'd probably come home to find a pink slip in the mailbox, a beartrap at the front door and a bill from the airlines saying my check bounced and I now owe them three grand.
It's quite amazing, sometimes, the things that senators and presidents have the balls to do, especially with the amount of public scrutiny they endure. "I have a wide stance" is only a lame excuse when used by a commoner; uttered by a senator, it becomes a national punchline.
No, but I'd bet good money that a large percentage of men over the years have skipped a day or two of work to cheat on their wives.
