No one ELSE has earned it. Every one of them who let it happen instead of doing something can get in line behind Kirk.
Problem with Kirk's immediate promotion to Captain
- Thread starter Sisko_is_my_captain
- Start date
You proceed on the assumption that there was nobody else in the enitre fleet who had earned that promotion or transfer from a smaller ship to the flagship. No Robert April, no Number One, no Garth of Izar etc.
We have to overlook the rapid promotion but that doesn't mean it doesn't stretch credibility to the max. Essentially it suggests that Starfleet adminstrators are incompetent buffoons. However, we know this already since they never leave enough ships to defend Earth or other key Federation outposts.
I guess the upshot is that Kirk's promotion makes sense but only because the admirality consists of idiots.
You don't give a guy who was a cadet only yesterday the command of a starship. You just don't. A few days of bravery and smarts (and some would say luck) doesn't mean that he has the required experience or knowledge to do something that other officers -very capable and intelligent officers - spend years preparing for.
It's not even so much that he couldn't manage it over time. But he'd have very little credibility with other officers in the fleet and under his command. And if something went wrong? Well, everyone would be saying 'I told you so!', whether or not it was really his fault. And I wouldn't want to be the Admiral who promoted him.
I thought it may have been slightly more realistic if he started out as a lieutenant during the movie and had at least a year or so on a starship (maybe because he graduated early?). But then that would have likely changed the movie too much.
Another problem is that it doesn't even make sense in the context of Star Trek itself. How many years did the officers under Kirk and Picard and other captains spend before they were promoted, even after all the miraculous deeds they accomplished? You think that guys like Data and Worf and Geordi would really stay on that ship for seven years or more without catapulting through the ranks? I highly doubt it. What, did they not want to get promoted? Maybe Riker didn't, but that's only because Frakes didn't want to leave the show. It's basically the opposite problem.
It's not even so much that he couldn't manage it over time. But he'd have very little credibility with other officers in the fleet and under his command. And if something went wrong? Well, everyone would be saying 'I told you so!', whether or not it was really his fault. And I wouldn't want to be the Admiral who promoted him.
I thought it may have been slightly more realistic if he started out as a lieutenant during the movie and had at least a year or so on a starship (maybe because he graduated early?). But then that would have likely changed the movie too much.
Another problem is that it doesn't even make sense in the context of Star Trek itself. How many years did the officers under Kirk and Picard and other captains spend before they were promoted, even after all the miraculous deeds they accomplished? You think that guys like Data and Worf and Geordi would really stay on that ship for seven years or more without catapulting through the ranks? I highly doubt it. What, did they not want to get promoted? Maybe Riker didn't, but that's only because Frakes didn't want to leave the show. It's basically the opposite problem.
Last edited:
Omega_Glory
Commodore
The promotion was one of the events that made the movie a bit ludicrous.
startrekrcks
Fleet Captain
Do you think they rushed some things
At the very least, they could have made it much more clear that Kirk was only acting as captain until Pike could return. They did say that Kirk was to report "as [Pike's] relief." They could have gave Kirk the *rank* of, say, Lieutenant Commander, but installed him as acting captain until such time as Pike could come back. And yes, an Admiral can maintain command of a starship, so Pike's promotion doesn't rule this out.
I'll tell you what I would be saying if he was the only guy of thousands of officers who could manage to save the planet: I'd be saying it was damned lucky he pulled our sorry asses out!
Some people apparently aren't impressed with what saving the planet means. A long, experienced service record doesn't add up to anything if you don't put it to use. They all failed at their military and defense duties. None of them have a leg to stand on.
You know, it's possible nuSpock was offered the promotion first, but refused it because he didn't think he was prepared to command a starship.
A short, inexperienced service record where an officer took huge gambles that paid off doesn't mean that the officer will make a good captain either.
The kind of approach that Kirk uses i.e. don't look before you leap, is the kind that can lead to huge numbers of civilian casualties. It's the thinking that led to the aftermath of the Iraq war being such a disaster. There is more to 'defense duties' than winning a battle.
We know Kirk will make a good captain because we have the benefit of hindsight. All Starfleet has is a record of disobedience and rule-breaking, one successful mission, and a recommendation from Pike based partly on his experience of George Kirk (I am assuming that Winona Kirk is an average officer since she doesn't get a mention).
Last edited by a moderator:
We have no evidence that Prime Kirk would have graduated at any rank other than Ensign. Indeed, we know for certain that Kirk did hold the commissioned rank of Ensign at one point, "several years" after his Academy studies ("Court Martial").
On the other hand, Saavik was Lt(jg) when taking the no-win test. Perhaps it is standard for personnel to graduate first, then take this test at the rank of Lt(jg), and emerge from it with command qualifications and the rank of Lt? And perhaps Kirk the Wunderkind was allowed to compress all of this into his pregrad studies, so that he was Cadet until the day of graduation, but had done all the motions required for being Lt (including the optional command classes and the no-win test), which is why the computer thought he'd already hold that rank. It's just that his graduation was held back a few days because of his cheating, but the computer of the Enterprise wasn't told.
Also, again, Kirk did zip to save Earth. Spock saved Earth. Then again, Eisenhower or Montgomery never shot a single Nazi, yet they are credited with liberating (half of) Europe anyway... Command relationships do count for something when promotions and decorations are considered.
Then again again, Kirk wasn't Spock's CO. Ever. At very best, he was CO of the Enterprise, the complement of which ship did not include Spock who had declared himself unfit for duty. The saving of Earth was teamwork between two Starfleet people, one of whom was not in active duty but nevertheless did all the work.
Timo Saloniemi
The answer to this whole debate was right there on the screen as we pulled back from the promotion ceremony to see Spock Prime in the hall's observation room. As we heard him say "Thrusters on full...", I took that to mean he had stepped in and spoken with Starfleet. They listened to him and his 129 years of foreknowledge, placed Kirk as Captain of the Enterprise, placed a permanent quarantine on the 20th century ship Botany Bay as it continues to float in space undisturbed, and they are readying an anti-matter bomb for Commander Matt Decker to deploy when he encounters the Doomsday Machine. They are also prepping a cargo ship to travel back in time to get a mated pair of humpback whales to bring back to their present sometime within the next fifteen years.
Lol - true - I suppose it's just that that sort of excuse jibes well in Babylon 5 but feels wierd in Star Trek. Now if pre-destination involves the Q pulling a few strings for their own entertainment, I can buy that as a Trek excuse.
Or as Lucy Lawless says, "A wizard did it."
Or as Lucy Lawless says, "A wizard did it."
Isn't there an element in ST:XI's premise of the universe trying to 'correct' itself? The timeline branched off in a weird way and so the universe is performing equally strange acrobatics of fate to return to where it's supposed to be.
I think I heard that concept stated in an interview with the writers or something...I can't remember precisely where.
I think I heard that concept stated in an interview with the writers or something...I can't remember precisely where.
Mostly because we don't have any starship for them to command.
