Creating a best DS9 episodes list... (opinions needed)

[SoM]

Your suggestions are very good, it makes sense to group Penumbra/Til Death Do Us Part/Strange Bedfellows as a 3-parter (and I didn't know that about the episode titles), and then the next three, too - although that might change the top 10 significantly: for instance, I'd rate Tacking Into the Wind much higher on its own than grouped with the other two, because, if I remember correctly, it has none of the cheesy Pah-wraiths stuff.

Thing is though, "The Changing Face of Evil" made it into the last five from DS9 S7 in the Heal/Hurt Game (final, top five from each season). It's the only episode from that not on your list in any form.

The four eps that made it in, but you listed only as possibles are "Progress" (S1), Crossover (S2 - and this one HAS to go in anyway, since the Mirror eps are one of the best-known aspects of DS9, and this is probably the best of them), The Adversary (S3) and Visionary (also S3). Arix's list further cuts Necessary Evil (S2) and Defiant (S3) from the H/H list.

Personally, I'd also include Civil Defence, Crossfire, The Ascent, and Business as Usual on your list. I'll probably end up with further thoughts later.

 

[Arix]

Oh, 80? Haha. Well, 8's and 1's look alot alike....

sometimes....

to the untrained eye.....

it was dark.....

I never learned to read.....

fail.

Hahahaha, its okay. I apologise for jumping on you like that. But the first line of the OP does say "This isn't one of the 'Make your Top 10 episodes' threads".

I'd be interested to learn what you consider the Top 80, I found it very hard to do myself!

 

[DevilEyes]

Thing is though, "The Changing Face of Evil" made it into the last five from DS9 S7 in the Heal/Hurt Game (final, top five from each season). It's the only episode from that not on your list in any form.

Really? *checks* Ugh, you're right. It's only another omission on my part. I thought I had all of the Final Chapter episodes on the list. Should have checked the episode list again...

Oh well, it seems the opening post can't be edited anymore. Anyway, since it seems almost impossible to cut down the number, at least I can try to group as many episodes as possible as 2-parters and 3-parters.

For instance,
The Jem 'Hadar/The Search I/II
A Time to Stand/Rocks and Shoals
Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels
Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols
Penumbra/'Til Death Do Us Part/Strange Bedfellows
The Changing Face of Evil/When It Rains.../Tacking into the Wind
maybe also Dogs of War/What You Leave Behind?

BTW I've just checked which episode exactly was The Changing Face of Evil - I can't remember what happened in which Final Chapter episode - and I don't see what's so special about it. Although at least I think from the synopsis that we don't actually see any Pah-wraiths flying from the magic book and Dukat doesn't have red eyes, which I guess makes it better than the next episode, or the Dukat/Winn/Sisko part of What You Leave Behind. But if I'd had to give an advantage to one of the FC episodes, it would rather be Tacking into the Wind, which has no Pah-wraiths at all, features probably the strongest part of the Cardassian Rebellion storyline, and the Klingon plot is good, too.

 

[DevilEyes]

Revised list, with all your suggestions taken into account:

1. Emissary
2. Captive Pursuit
3. Vortex
4. Duet
5. In The Hands of the Prophets
6. Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege
7. Necessary Evil
8. Whispers
9. Blood Oath*
10. The Maquis 1/2
11. The Wire
12. Crossover
13. The Jem 'Hadar/The Search 1/2
14. The House of Quark
15. Second Skin
16. Equilibrium*
17. Civil Defense
18. Past Tense 1/2
19. Visionary
20. Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast
21. Explorers
22. Facets
23. The Adversary*
24. The Way of the Warrior
25. The Visitor
26. Hippocratic Oath
27. Indiscretion
28. Rejoined
29. Starship Down
30. Little Green Men
31. Our Man Bashir
32. Homefront/Paradise Lost
33. Crossfire*
34. Return to Grace
35. Accession*
36. Hard Time
37. For the Cause
38. To the Death
39. The Quickening
40. Broken Link
41. The Ship
42. Looking for Par'mach in All the Wrong Places*
43. Nor the Battle to the Strong
44. Trials & Tribble-ations
45. Things Past
46. The Ascent
47. Rapture
48. The Darkness and the Light
49. For the Uniform
50. In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light
51. Doctor Bashir, I Presume?
52. Business As Usual
53. Ties of Blood and Water
54. Children of Time
55. In the Cards
56. Call to Arms
57. A Time to Stand/Rocks and Shoals
58. Sons and Daughters*
59. Behind the Lines
60. Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels
61. You Are Cordinally Invited
62. Statistical Probabilities
63. The Magnificent Ferengi
64. Waltz
65. Far Beyond the Stars
66. Change of Heart
67. Wrongs Darker than Death or Night
68. Inquisition
69. In The Pale Moonlight
70. His Way
71. Valiant
72. The Sound of Her Voice
73. Tears of the Prophets
74. Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols
75. Afterimage
76. Treachery, Faith and the Great River
77. The Siege of AR-558
78. It's Only a Paper Moon
79. Chimera
80. Badda-Bing, Badda-Bing
81. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
82. Penumbra/'Til Death Do Us Part/Strange Bedfellows
83. The Changing Face of Evil/When It Rains.../Tacking into the Wind
84. Extreme Measures*
85. Dogs of War/What You Leave Behind

So obviously, I have to remove a few from the list.
*are those I'm considering for deletion.

 

[Arix]

Hmmm... Its tough to choose between them...

I recently re-watched Accession, and personally liked it, it was the start of Sisko's gradual acceptance of his role as the Emissary. Was it Top 80 worthy...? Hmmm, maybe just.

I've been trying to choose between Sons and Daugthers, Extreme Measures and Equilibrium... So I'd consider keeping any of those 4, the others I'd drop altogether...

Not that they're bad, I remember them all as being fairly good in fact... But its just so hard to choose only 80 (and thats including multiple episodes stuck together!)

 

[SoM]

• Captive Pursuit
• Vortex
• Accession*
• The Quickening
• Looking for Par'mach in All the Wrong Places*
• Rapture
• Doctor Bashir, I Presume?
• Chidren of Time
• Waltz

I'd go looking for ones to cut from that list.

 

[DevilEyes]

• Captive Pursuit
• Vortex
• Accession*
• The Quickening
• Looking for Par'mach in All the Wrong Places*
• Rapture
• Doctor Bashir, I Presume?
• Chidren of Time
• Waltz

I'd go looking for ones to cut from that list.

Captive Pursuit and Children of Time are not an option, because I already know that they're among another Rankopedia member's favorites.

So here's my top 15, in chronological order: Emissary (1x01), Captive Pursuit (1x06), The Jem'Hadar (2x26), The Search (3x01/02), The House of Quark (3x03), Explorers (3x22), Rejoined (4x06), Little Green Men (4x08), Hard Time (4x19), Trials and Tribble-ations (5x06), The Ascent (5x09), Children of Time (5x22), You Are Cordially Invited (6x07), Far Beyond the Stars (6x13), Treachery, Faith & The Great River (7x06).

Looking For Par'Mach is one I didn't even mean to include and the first one I'd leave out, but some people here seem to really like it. Ditto for Vortex, Rapture and Doctor Bashir, I Presume?

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I'd cut Blood Oath, Crossfire, Accession, Badda-Bing Badda-Bang and Afterimage. Rapture has to stay, because that episode and In the Cards are the high points for the Emissary arc and Kai Winn. I'm surprised Apocalypse Rising isn't on the list.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'd cut Blood Oath, Crossfire, Accession, Badda-Bing Badda-Bang and Afterimage. Rapture has to stay, because that episode and In the Cards are the high points for the Emissary arc and Kai Winn. I'm surprised Apocalypse Rising isn't on the list.

I took it out because other people said it wasn't that great, and I have no special feelings about it. Same reason why I took out Defiant at Arix's suggestion - it is OK but for some reason it's not on my "best DS9 episodes" list, despite everything that it has going on for it (Tom Riker, The Maquis, Dukat working with Sisko, The Obsidian Order, the Defiant itself...). I guess some episodes have that extra something and some are just the sum of their parts. (Frankly, I feel the same about The Way of the Warrior, but so many people are crazy about it.)

Every time I want to take out an episode from the list, someone comes along and says that it's one of their favorites. See the other posts in this thread for the reasons why I included Afterimage and Crossfire which weren't on my first shortlist.

 

[Arix]

• Captive Pursuit
• Vortex
• Accession*
• The Quickening
• Looking for Par'mach in All the Wrong Places*
• Rapture
• Doctor Bashir, I Presume?
• Chidren of Time
• Waltz

I'd go looking for ones to cut from that list.

Waltz?! As in, the one where Sisko and Dukat are stuck on that planet, that Waltz? No way should that be cut! Its a fantastic episode!

...And I also think Doctor Bashir, I Presume should stay. The rest can be cut, they're all good - but not Top 80 good.

I'd cut Blood Oath, Crossfire, Accession, Badda-Bing Badda-Bang and Afterimage. Rapture has to stay, because that episode and In the Cards are the high points for the Emissary arc and Kai Winn. I'm surprised Apocalypse Rising isn't on the list.

Well I'm going to (annoy DevilEyes very much) by 'voting' for Badda-Bing Badda-Bang to stay. The rest can go (though I already mentioned I think Accession is pretty good, but maybe its more of a Top 100 episode :P), but I've always loved Badda-Bing Badda-Bang. I'm a sucker for episodes where they dress up, and I <3 Vic. Its one of the episodes I show my non-Trekkie friends when I make them watch Star Trek!

Same reason why I took out Defiant at Arix's suggestion - it is OK but for some reason it's not on my "best DS9 episodes" list, despite everything that it has going on for it (Tom Riker, The Maquis, Dukat working with Sisko, The Obsidian Order, the Defiant itself...). I guess some episodes have that extra something and some are just the sum of their parts. (Frankly, I feel the same about The Way of the Warrior, but so many people are crazy about it.)

Every time I want to take out an episode from the list, someone comes along and says that it's one of their favorites. See the other posts in this thread for the reasons why I included Afterimage and Crossfire which weren't on my first shortlist.

Thanks for that btw. (Taking Defiant out) Its not that I particularly hated it or anything, but again, it was good, just not Top 80 good.

Its definitely a challenge, with only 80 places available... As I said in my first post in this thread, it just proves to me that DS9 is the best Trek, when its so damn hard to narrow the best episodes down to 80!

 

[Sykonee]

Blood Oath*
Equilibrium*
The Adversary*
Crossfire*
Accession*
Looking for Par'mach in All the Wrong Places*
Sons and Daughters*
Extreme Measures*

The bolded are my suggestions for cuts out of the shortened list. Oh, and also Rejoined. (I like LfPiAtWP far more as a 'romance' episode, but hey, I can't dominate all the choices. )

 

[DevilEyes]

OK I think I'll be taking out Equilibrium, Crossfire, Accession, Sons and Daughters, Extreme Measures. Maybe Vortex to have under 80 and leave room if someone on Rankopedia wants to add another one.

 

[DevilEyes]

On second thought, I think What You Leave Behind should stand by itself, because it's the series finale, and a feature length-one as well.

For that matter, I know I'm just making this more difficult, but is it really right to lump episodes of Final Chapter or the Dominion arc together if they don't share the same writers and the first one doesn't end with "To be continued"? And sometimes, they had rather distinct storylines as well, for instance Tacking into the Wind doesn't feature any of the Winn/Dukat stuff that the previous two do, so it doesn't feel right to lump them together. Then again, The Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege is clearly a three-parter even though all three parts have different writers, but they have the 'To be continued' and it's clearly one story contained in all three.

But in the Dominion occupation arc, the only episodes that clearly make a two-parter because the first one ends on 'To be continued' (and they share the same writers) is Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels. There is no 'TBC' in either of the previous 4 episodes. And in the Final Chapter, there is no ''TBC" anywhere, and every next episodes has different writers. Therefore lumping them together feels rather arbitrary.

The Jem 'Hadar is questionable, since there is no 'To be continued' and it's a season finale, even though it is the same story that's continued in The Search1/2, so should it be considered a three-parter or not?

 

[DevilEyes]

New version of the list.

1. Emissary
2. Captive Pursuit
3. Duet
4. In The Hands of the Prophets
5. Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege
6. Necessary Evil
7. Whispers
8. The Maquis 1/2
9. The Wire
10. Crossover
11. The Jem 'Hadar/The Search 1/2
12. The House of Quark
13. Second Skin
14. Civil Defense
15. Past Tense 1/2
16. Visionary
17. Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast
18. Explorers
19. Facets
20. The Adversary
21. The Way of the Warrior
22. The Visitor
23. Hippocratic Oath
24. Indiscretion
25. Rejoined
26. Starship Down
27. Little Green Men
28. Our Man Bashir
29. Homefront/Paradise Lost
30. Return to Grace
31. Hard Time
32. For the Cause
33. To the Death
34. The Quickening
35. Broken Link
36. The Ship
37. Nor the Battle to the Strong
38. Trials & Tribble-ations
39. Things Past
40. The Ascent
41. Rapture
42. The Darkness and the Light
43. For the Uniform
44. In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light
45. Doctor Bashir, I Presume?
46. Business As Usual
47. Ties of Blood and Water
48. Children of Time
49. In the Cards
50. Call to Arms
51. A Time to Stand
52. Rocks and Shoals
53. Behind the Lines
54. Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels
55. You Are Cordially Invited
56. Statistical Probabilities
57. The Magnificent Ferengi
58. Waltz
59. Far Beyond the Stars
60. Change of Heart
61. Wrongs Darker than Death or Night
62. Inquisition
63. In The Pale Moonlight
64. His Way
65. Valiant
66. The Sound of Her Voice
67. Tears of the Prophets
68. Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols
69. Afterimage
70. Treachery, Faith and the Great River
71. The Siege of AR-558
72. It's Only a Paper Moon
73. Chimera
74. Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang
75. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
76. Penumbra
77. 'Til Death Do Us Part
78. Strange Bedfellows
79. The Changing Face of Evil
80. When It Rains...
81. Tacking into the Wind
82. Dogs of War
83. What You Leave Behind

I've removed Vortex, Blood Oath, Crossfire, Accession, Looking for Par'Mach (I just can't believe someone would actually want to vote for it as a top 10 episode), Sons and Daughters and Extreme Measures. Now I need to get rid of at least 3 more episodes.

edit: I found this thread hoping to see which ones weren't on people's top 10 lists... now it seems even more difficult some people listed episodes like Progress, Blood Oath, Take me Out to the Holosuite etc. that I haven't included in the list above

 

[Sykonee]

No list will ever be 100% perfect.

Of what's left, here's three I'd cut (er, that doesn't include Rejoined this time -looks like I'll never win that battle):

Dogs Of War
Mostly a transitional episode leading into the finale. Seems to be primarily focused on giving the Ferengis closure, which is fine for what it is but hardly must-see.

Civil Defense
Like so many down here in the nitty-gritty, it's tough to choose. However, though it's a fun episode, some of the excessive technobabble solutions and lack of a proper denouement hurts a little.

Valiant
You have to give credit for the bold decision in giving all these kids their harsh comeuppance. Unfortunately, until that moment, the episode is rather annoying, having to sit through Red Squad's bluster, not to mention Nog so easily falling sway to it.

I fully expect very few will agree with these suggested cuts but that's what makes paring it down to just 80 so difficult, ain't it.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

It's a strong list. Barring the ones I've already suggested, I'd cut:

Starship Down: There's nothing really wrong with this one, but I think it's pretty average without much real excitement or interest.

Waltz: Has a few excellent scenes, but overall I was disappointed. The idea of Sisko and Dukat stuck alone together was enticing, but I actually found it pretty dull.

The Sound of Her Voice: This one's nice enough, but it wasn't that exciting and didn't make much of an impression on me.

 

[carlmarx]

No list will ever be 100% perfect.

Of what's left, here's three I'd cut (er, that doesn't include Rejoined this time -looks like I'll never win that battle):

Dogs Of War
Mostly a transitional episode leading into the finale. Seems to be primarily focused on giving the Ferengis closure, which is fine for what it is but hardly must-see.

Civil Defense
Like so many down here in the nitty-gritty, it's tough to choose. However, though it's a fun episode, some of the excessive technobabble solutions and lack of a proper denouement hurts a little.

Valiant
You have to give credit for the bold decision in giving all these kids their harsh comeuppance. Unfortunately, until that moment, the episode is rather annoying, having to sit through Red Squad's bluster, not to mention Nog so easily falling sway to it.

I fully expect very few will agree with these suggested cuts but that's what makes paring it down to just 80 so difficult, ain't it.

This.

Civil Defense was the one that really stuck out for me on the new list. I'm surprised it made it this far. I've rewatched the entire series recently for ranking purposes and I almost couldn't finish this one. Haha.

Sad to see Acession go, I thought it was great.

 

[DevilEyes]

It hasn't gone anywhere, I can always change my mind. The good thing that it can even be changed after the ranking is created, although adding a new candidate always deletes one of those that have no votes, or least votes. So maybe I shouldn't worry about this so much... Deciding which ones to put there has proven almost impossible anyway, since everyone seems to have different ideas which ones should be there and which shouldn't.

 

[Degobunny]

'Cardassians' was always a favorite of mine. I am surprised it is not on the list. The scene between the Cardassian kid and his father when they meet after so many years apart always brings me to tears. Plus it was a Garak episode, and Garak episodes are always good. I would probably trade this episode out with 'Children of Time'.

So DevilEyes are you planning on ranking the episodes?

 

[DevilEyes]

1. Emissary
2. Captive Pursuit
3. Duet
4. In The Hands of the Prophets
5. Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege
6. Necessary Evil
7. Whispers
8. The Maquis 1/2
9. The Wire
10. Crossover
11. The Jem 'Hadar/The Search 1/2
12. The House of Quark
13. Second Skin
14. Civil Defense
15. Past Tense 1/2
16. Visionary
17. Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast
18. Explorers
19. Facets
20. The Adversary
21. The Way of the Warrior
22. The Visitor
23. Hippocratic Oath
24. Indiscretion
25. Rejoined
26. Little Green Men
27. Our Man Bashir
28. Homefront/Paradise Lost
29. Return to Grace
30. Accession
31. Hard Time
32. For the Cause
33. To the Death
34. The Quickening
35. Broken Link
36. The Ship
37. Nor the Battle to the Strong
38. Trials & Tribble-ations
39. Things Past
40. The Ascent
41. Rapture
42. The Darkness and the Light
43. For the Uniform
44. In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light
45. Doctor Bashir, I Presume?
46. Business As Usual
47. Ties of Blood and Water
48. Children of Time
49. In the Cards
50. Call to Arms
51. A Time to Stand
52. Rocks and Shoals
53. Behind the Lines
54. Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels
55. You Are Cordially Invited
56. Statistical Probabilities
57. The Magnificent Ferengi
58. Waltz
59. Far Beyond the Stars
60. Change of Heart
61. Wrongs Darker than Death or Night
62. Inquisition
63. In The Pale Moonlight
64. His Way
65. Tears of the Prophets
66. Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols
67. Afterimage
68. Treachery, Faith and the Great River
69. The Siege of AR-558
70. It's Only a Paper Moon
71. Chimera
72. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
73. The Changing Face of Evil
74. Tacking into the Wind
75. What You Leave Behind

I think this is going to be the list I'm going to create the ranking. The easiest way to cut the number down is to take out some of the Final Chapter arc. I only left The Changing Face of Evil, because it features the battle at Chin'toka and the beginning of Damar's rebellion, Tacking into the Wind as the best episode of the arc, and What You Leave Behind as the finale. I also added Accession (though I may change my mind), took out Starship Down, Valiant, The Sound of Her Voice and Badda-Bing. 75 episodes is OK for a start, and it leaves other people enough room to add (or asked to be added) 5 more, without deleting any of the existing ones.