Creating a best DS9 episodes list... (opinions needed)

[DevilEyes]

This isn't one of the 'Make your Top 10 episodes' threads - we've already had those. I am about to make a Rankopedia ranking about Best DS9 episodes and I need some help. For those who don't know (which probably means, most of you, since there don't seem to be many DS9 fans on Rankopedia, and my efforts to get people from TrekBBS to vote there haven't amounted to much), Rankopedia rankings allow voting for 10 candidates; but there is a limit of how many candidates there can be in a ranking - 80. This can obviously be a problem, when a series has 176 episodes. Of course, I'll count two-parters and three-parters as one episode, which will make it easier to cut it down to 80, and I won't be including the episodes that seem to be universally hated, like Meridian or Profit and Lace, but I'll still have to decide to leave out many episodes. This is not easy, since, from what I've seen, people's top 10 lists of DS9 episodes tend to differ quite a lot, apart from 2 or 3 universal favorites (unlike, say, TNG, where most people seem to always choose the same episodes).

Also, regarding my rule for 2-parters and 3-parters, I'm not sure what to do with the Final Chapter - I can't have 9 episodes as one, but I don't want to include them all separately. Maybe I could try to group some of them together if they have the same storylines (Extreme Measures, for instance, is quite different from the episodes before and after it as it deals entirely with Bashir, O'Brien and Sloan)? Listing all 6 episodes of the Dominion Occupation arc would also make it easier to cut them down under 80, but it's a bit too much, and it would be too difficult and confusing to name the candidate...

Another thing, Rankopedia allows other candidates to be added later, but there can't be more than 80, and some of the previous ones that nobody votes for will be deleted for the new ones to be included. Therefore I'd like to make my initial list with less than 80 candidates, so I could allow other people to add any episode they want, or ask me to add one for them.

I've tried to make a list of episodes that should and might be included. So far I've got this, based partly on my own judgment and partly on what I know of other people's opinions:

Season 1
Emissary
Captive Pursuit
Duet
In The Hands of the Prophets
possibly:
Past Prologue
Battle Lines
Vortex
Progress
The Nagus
...

Season 2
The Circle Trilogy (Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege)
Necessary Evil
Whispers
The Maquis 1/2
The Wire
The Jem 'Hadar
possibly:
Cardassians
Crossover
Blood Oath
Tribunal
Profit and Loss
The Collaborator
Rules of Acquisition
Invasive Procedures
...

Season 3
Second Skin
The House of Quark
Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast
Defiant
Past Tense 1/2
The Search 1/2 (or not? or do I count it as a 3-parter with The Jem 'Hadar?)
possibly:
The Adversary
Equilibrium
Facets
Civil Defense
Visionary
Explorers
The Abandoned
Life Support
...

Season 4
The Way of the Warrior
The Visitor
Hippocratic Oath
Homefront/Paradise Lost
Rejoined
Return to Grace
Hard Time
The Quickening
For the Cause
To the Death
Little Green Men
Our Man Bashir
Broken Link
possibly:
Indiscretion
Starship Down
Crossfire
Accession
Body Parts
Bar Association
...

Season 5
Trials & Tribble-ations
Nor the Battle to the Strong
Apocalypse Rising
The Ship
Things Past
The Darkness and the Light
For the Uniform
In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light
Ties of Blood and Water
Chidren of Time
Empok Nor
In the Cards
Call to Arms
possibly:
The Begotten
Doctor Bashir, I Presume
Rapture
Blaze of Glory
Business As Usual
The Ascent
A Simple Investigation
The Assignment
Looking for Par'mach in All the Wrong Places
...

Season 6
A Time to Stand
Rocks and Shoals
Sons and Daughters
Behind the Lines
Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels
In The Pale Moonlight
You Are Cordinally Invited
Far Beyond the Stars
Inquisition
Statistical Probabilities
Waltz
Wrongs Darker than Death or Night
The Magnificent Ferengi
His Way
Tears of the Prophets
possibly:
One Little Ship
Who Mourns for Morn
Change of Heart
The Reckoning
The Sound of Her Voice
The Valiant
Honor Among the Thieves

Season 7
Treachery, Faith and the Great River
Chimera
The Siege of AR-558
It's Only A Paper Moon
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
(Final Chapter episodes - do you think I should group some of them together, and in what way? Do I leave some of them out?)
Penumbra
'Til Death Do Us Part
Strange Bedfellows
When It Rains...
Tacking into the Wind
Extreme Measures
Dogs of War
What You Leave Behind
possibly:
Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols
Afterimage
Take Me Out to the Holosuite
Once More Unto the Breach
Chrysalis
Field of Fire
Covenant
Badda-Bing, Badda-Bing


Opinions? Which ones do you think I should include? Did I forget some of your favorites? Please don't tell me that you hate a certain episode and that it shouldn't be in the ranking - it doesn't matter, since it's not a "Worst episodes" list, all it matters is that there is/might be someone who would want to vote for it in their top 10.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

You've left out a real classic from Season 2: Whispers.

Of your possiblys I'd say that Crossover, Visionary, Indiscretion, Rapture, Looking for Par'Mach... and Valiant should all make the list.

I don't think the occupation arc should count as one. Obviously the episodes all have things in common and the events on the station form a thread that runs through the whole thing, but the off-DS9 stuff breaks down into separate episodes (though A Time to Stand and Rocks and Shoals are almost a two-parter). The final chapter is a tougher call, but I still think it should be considered as separate episodes.

 

[DevilEyes]

You've left out a real classic from Season 2: Whispers.

D'OH! It's actually one of my early seasons favorites. *edits post 1*

I don't think the occupation arc should count as one. Obviously the episodes all have things in common and the events on the station form a thread that runs through the whole thing, but the off-DS9 stuff breaks down into separate episodes (though A Time to Stand and Rocks and Shoals are almost a two-parter). The final chapter is a tougher call, but I still think it should be considered as separate episodes.

I don't know about that, ATTS and RAS seem like two very different episodes, since the latter mostly deals with the events on the planet with Sisko, Garak, Bashir, Keevan and the Jem 'Hadar, while ATTS is a lot more about the people on the station. I only intend to put Favor the Bold and A Sacrifice of Angels as a two-parter.

 

[hg99076]

apologies

 

[Eyes]

Well, its a very good list for the ones that are definitely in.

As for the final chapter.. I'd put Penumbra/Til Death Do Us Part/Strange Bedfellows as one (which sort of fits, particularly since the latter two's titles were going to be Umbra and Eclipse, the gradual moving of the shadow), then Changing Face of Evil/When it Rains/Tacking Into the Wind, then Extreme Measures on its own, then Dogs of War can go with What You Leave Behind or be left on its own.

Among your possiblys, I'd put up Vortex, Cardassians, Blood Oath, Crossover, The Adversary, Visionary, Explorers, Civil Defense, Starship Down, Indiscretion, Dr Bashir I Presume, Rapture, Blaze of Glory, Change of Heart, The Reckoning, Valiant, Honour Among Thieves, Covenant and Afterimage. That might make the total over 80, but I'm not sure.

 

[DevilEyes]

Well, its a very good list for the ones that are definitely in.

As for the final chapter.. I'd put Penumbra/Til Death Do Us Part/Strange Bedfellows as one (which sort of fits, particularly since the latter two's titles were going to be Umbra and Eclipse, the gradual moving of the shadow), then Changing Face of Evil/When it Rains/Tacking Into the Wind, then Extreme Measures on its own, then Dogs of War can go with What You Leave Behind or be left on its own.

Among your possiblys, I'd put up Vortex, Cardassians, Blood Oath, Crossover, The Adversary, Visionary, Explorers, Civil Defense, Starship Down, Indiscretion, Dr Bashir I Presume, Rapture, Blaze of Glory, Change of Heart, The Reckoning, Valiant, Honour Among Thieves, Covenant and Afterimage. That might make the total over 80, but I'm not sure.

It does put it over 80. Although grouping the Dominion arc (on second thought, I think I will put A Time to Stand/Rocks and Shoals as a 2-parter) and the Final Chapter episodes that way would help to keep the number down. Your suggestions are very good, it makes sense to group Penumbra/Til Death Do Us Part/Strange Bedfellows as a 3-parter (and I didn't know that about the episode titles), and then the next three, too - although that might change the top 10 significantly: for instance, I'd rate Tacking Into the Wind much higher on its own than grouped with the other two, because, if I remember correctly, it has none of the cheesy Pah-wraiths stuff.

But even when I do that, (and if I include all the suggestions for inclusion), I end up with 85 episodes.

 

[Sykonee]

Is that your current working list up there, with 85? If so, I can suggest a few to edit out:

Profit and Loss
Life Support
Bar Association
The Assignment
Rules of Acquisition
Equilibrium
A Simple Investigation
Sons and Daughters (this is often seen as the weak link in the Occupation Arc, and since it's rather stand-alone, could probably be excluded)
Who Mourns for Morn
Field of Fire
Chrysalis
Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang

Perhaps we could make a poll here over which ones should be edited out of the list?

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Oh, I think Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols ought to make the list as well. Admittedly the first part is slow and the Sisko's mother stuff is pretty polarizing, but I thought the second part was really good.

 

[DevilEyes]

Is that your current working list up there, with 85? If so, I can suggest a few to edit out:

Profit and Loss
Life Support
Bar Association
The Assignment
Rules of Acquisition
Equilibrium
A Simple Investigation
Sons and Daughters (this is often seen as the weak link in the Occupation Arc, and since it's rather stand-alone, could probably be excluded)
Who Mourns for Morn
Field of Fire
Chrysalis
Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang

Perhaps we could make a poll here over which ones should be edited out of the list?

No, all of these apart from Sons and Daughters were just in the "possibly could be included" category. If I counted them all, I'd have well over 100 episodes. I've only counted the ones I intended to include definitely and those that Pemmer Harge and Eyes have suggested for inclusion, and it was 85 (84 without SAD).

 

[Sykonee]

No, all of these apart from Sons and Daughters were just in the "possibly could be included" category. If I counted them all, I'd have well over 100 episodes. I've only counted the ones I intended to include definitely and those that Pemmer Harge and Eyes have suggested for inclusion, and it was 85 (84 without SAD).

Hmm... well, going by those ones, I'd recommend the following cuts:

Sons And Daughters (reason already given)

Rejoined
It may be a classic in the sense it features a bit of same-sex spit-swap, but it's still a fairly typical romance episode. Not exactly a must-see one.

Empok Nor
Nicely stylized, but not the greatest plot.

Apocalypse Rising
Despite the novelty of seeing some of the cast as Klingons, there wasn't much to the episode. A lot of hanging around a Klingon party.

You Are Cordinally Invited
Might have been better if it hadn't fallen back on the ol' "Wedding's called off" cliche plot.

 

[DevilEyes]

And I can't believe I completely forgot about Far Beyond the Stars.

I certainly won't be excluding Rejoined or You Are Cordially Invited, since another Rankopedia member/Trek fan (who has created a few Trek rankings, especially TNG-related ones) has just told me that these are in his top 15. ( I think Too Much Fun also lists them as his favorites?) This is his top 10, for the record:

So here's my top 15, in chronological order: Emissary (1x01), Captive Pursuit (1x06), The Jem'Hadar (2x26), The Search (3x01/02), The House of Quark (3x03), Explorers (3x22), Rejoined (4x06), Little Green Men (4x08), Hard Time (4x19), Trials and Tribble-ations (5x06), The Ascent (5x09), Children of Time (5x22), You Are Cordially Invited (6x07), Far Beyond the Stars (6x13), Treachery, Faith & The Great River (7x06).

This is really going to be hard.

 

[Sykonee]

Hm, well, like I suggested, perhaps we should pool together a list of episodes for possible cutting, then make a poll of which ones should stay or be cut. It'll be the closest thing to a democratic decision in this case.

 

[Arix]

This just proves to me that DS9 is the best Trek has to offer - when trying to narrow the episodes down to less than half is a near-impossible task (and when you put 2 and 3 parters together no less!)

Using Memory Alpha to remind me of the plot of some of the episodes I haven't seen for a while, I'll try to go through and narrow down your list to 80, though obviously, its all just my opinion.

Season 1
Emissary
Captive Pursuit
Duet
In The Hands of the Prophets

Season 2
The Circle Trilogy (Homecoming/The Circle/The Siege)
Whispers
The Maquis 1/2
The Wire
Crossover
Blood Oath

Season 3
The Search 1/2 /The Jem'Hadar
Second Skin
The House of Quark
Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast
Past Tense 1/2
Equilibrium
Facets
Explorers
Civil Defense

Season 4
The Way of the Warrior
The Visitor
Hippocratic Oath
Homefront/Paradise Lost
Rejoined
Return to Grace
Hard Time
The Quickening
For the Cause
To the Death
Little Green Men
Our Man Bashir
Broken Link
Indiscretion
Starship Down
Accession

Season 5
Trials & Tribble-ations
Nor the Battle to the Strong
Apocalypse Rising
The Ship
Things Past
The Darkness and the Light
For the Uniform
In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light
Ties of Blood and Water
Chidren of Time
Empok Nor
In the Cards
Call to Arms
Rapture
The Ascent
Doctor Bashir, I Presume
Business as Usual

Season 6
A Time to Stand/Rocks and Shoals
Sons and Daughters
Behind the Lines
Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels
In The Pale Moonlight
You Are Cordinally Invited
Far Beyond the Stars
Inquisition
Statistical Probabilities
Waltz
Wrongs Darker than Death or Night
The Magnificent Ferengi
His Way
Tears of the Prophets
The Sound of Her Voice
The Valiant

Season 7
Treachery, Faith and the Great River
Chimera
The Siege of AR-558
It's Only A Paper Moon
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
Penumbra/'Til Death Do Us Part/Strange Bedfellows
The Changing Face of Evil/When It Rains.../Tacking into the Wind
Extreme Measures
Dogs of War/What You Leave Behind
Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols
Afterimage
Badda-Bing, Badda-Bing

I joined The Jem'Hadar with the Search, not ideal, but saves room for another episode.

I removed Defiant as I watched it the other day, and while its not bad... in such a difficult list, I think it needs to be cut, as there were other better episodes. Same goes for Necessary Evil... There are so many better episodes from later seasons, I wouldn't consider either of those up in the top 80...

And you really need to realise that not all of us hate the Pah-Wraiths as much as you Devil Eyes.

Phew, that was hard... I tried to pare it back to your definites, then joined the Final Chapter episodes together, and removed the 2 I didn't think were that great. Then I went back through and added in some from the possible section - mostly because I could remember enjoying them.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Necessary Evil is without any doubt in my top 10. Probably even top 5.

 

[Arix]

^ Necessary Evil is without any doubt in my top 10. Probably even top 5.

Well in that case... I'd replace... hmmmm Blood Oath?

I also think a poll is a good idea :P But you'll have to do it in sections, cause surely all 170-something won't fit in one poll.

I'm actually not joking... the best way to see what people like, is to put every single episode up, and let people vote for them. You take the most voted for, then keep narrowing it down until you have 80.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Afterimage is in my top ten--if only that. And it's not just because it features Ezri.

No...it is filled with a great deal of heart. And indeed, this ep actually illustrates why I love her so much in the first place.

Here we see a "regular girl", Ezri, full of promise and life, who has been thrown into a situation beyond her control. The sudden rush of memories and experiences from the symbiont overwhelm her. As a result, for a time, it seems as if her career is over, and that her spirit will break with just a little more pressure. I think we can all sympathize, on some level, when we see her burst into tears--and when she expresses complete despair to Sisko....

But Sisko knows that this girl is made of far stronger stuff that even she realized. And indeed, we discover this along with her--and the end, where she is accepted into the DS9 family, is truly inspirational. This girl has had the pressures of life thrust upon her--and she discovers that with this comes greatness. And so, Ezri, in this episode, starts a path of self-learning, beginning a quest to discover the heroine within herself.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

And I can't believe I completely forgot about Far Beyond the Stars.

I certainly won't be excluding Rejoined or You Are Cordially Invited, since another Rankopedia member/Trek fan (who has created a few Trek rankings, especially TNG-related ones) has just told me that these are in his top 15. ( I think Too Much Fun also lists them as his favorites?) This is his top 10, for the record:

So here's my top 15, in chronological order: Emissary (1x01), Captive Pursuit (1x06), The Jem'Hadar (2x26), The Search (3x01/02), The House of Quark (3x03), Explorers (3x22), Rejoined (4x06), Little Green Men (4x08), Hard Time (4x19), Trials and Tribble-ations (5x06), The Ascent (5x09), Children of Time (5x22), You Are Cordially Invited (6x07), Far Beyond the Stars (6x13), Treachery, Faith & The Great River (7x06).

This is really going to be hard.

This is incredible. Of that top 15, only 2 of those might even POSSIBLY make my top 15, and even that isn't definitely. The only ones on that list I consider top 15 material are The Jem Hadar and Treachery, Faith and the Great River.

 

[carlmarx]

Well, if you're doing a top 10, IMO you could definately include a few that pretty much (hopefully I'm not making too sweeping a generalization here) most everyone would agree belong in the top 10.

For example, I've always considered DS9's "Big 3" to be "In the Pale Moonlight", "The Visitor" and "Duet". They may not be evryone's favorites, but I think they definately have had the most impact on the most fans and are essentially classic, historic, defining moments in the series above all else.

As for the last 7, "Trials And Tribble-ations" may belong just on the merits of what it did comedically, technologically, and above all, just being the Trek fan's wet dream.

After that, from what I've seen on lists, this messageboard, and from my own personal opinion, you probably have these episodes left to narrow it down to:

Necessary Evil
Whispers
Crossover
Past Tense
Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast
Hard Time
Rapture
In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light
Rocks And Shoals
Far Beyond The Stars
Chimera
The Seige Of AR-558
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
Tacking Into The Wind

I'm sure I'm leaving a couple big ones out, but really, these are the episodes that you'll find most in common among fan favorites and other "classic" Trek lists. I think apart from these everything else comes down to personal taste. But if you're going for the most important, historic, and best eps of the series, I think those are pretty much what's there to choose from.
For the purposes here, I've left off several episodes that had a personal impact on me and are personal favorites, like "Captive Pursuit", "The Ship", and "Explorers", simply because if you're making a list that really represents the greatest episodes, I know these probably would spark more debate than not.

 

[Arix]

Well, if you're doing a top 10, IMO you could definately include a few that pretty much (hopefully I'm not making too sweeping a generalization here) most everyone would agree belong in the top 10.

For example, I've always considered DS9's "Big 3" to be "In the Pale Moonlight", "The Visitor" and "Duet". They may not be evryone's favorites, but I think they definately have had the most impact on the most fans and are essentially classic, historic, defining moments in the series above all else.

*facepalm*

Did you not read past the first line of the OP? She's not creating a Top Ten list at all! She's narrowing down a Top 80 episodes list to use for Rankopedia.

Though I would like to add, those "Big 3" episodes are definitely in my personal Top 10 list.

 

[carlmarx]

Oh, 80? Haha. Well, 8's and 1's look alot alike....

sometimes....

to the untrained eye.....

it was dark.....

I never learned to read.....

fail.