Star Fleet Academy Question

[The Wormhole]

In other words, military academies are perfectly prepared to create scientists and engineers in addition to soldiers.

Also:

Starfleet is the Federation's military. A military is the agency designated by the state to defend the state in times of war. Starfleet defends the Federation in times of war. Ergo, Starfleet is the military.

Also, a mere university wouldn't call its students "cadets."

Thats just mincing words. Of course Starfleet is the military in that sense. But it is muss less rigid then the armed forces today. After all everyone in Starfleet is highly educated which can't be said for today's armies (as officers are a small minority). So there is no need to treat anyone like grunts. Starfleet is much more civilian in its style than anything that calls itsself military today. And this will be relfected in the ethos at Starfleet Academy.

Starfleet is military, b any relevant definition of the word. Just watch TOS. Things are very military-like there. Modern-day Trek shows saying Starfleet isn't military is just ignorance by a writing staff that doesn't truly understand what a military is.

 

[Jefferies]

Thats just mincing words. Of course Starfleet is the military in that sense. But it is muss less rigid then the armed forces today. After all everyone in Starfleet is highly educated which can't be said for today's armies (as officers are a small minority). So there is no need to treat anyone like grunts. Starfleet is much more civilian in its style than anything that calls itsself military today. And this will be relfected in the ethos at Starfleet Academy.

Well, just because you don't have a commission it doesn't mean you're some sort of knuckle-dragging neanderthal, you know.

Many enlisted personnel and non-commissioned officers have college and/or college-level educations under their belts.

And don't sneer at the "grunt" work (or the people that do it), it needs to get done somehow, doesn't it? And some people don't mind making their living at an honest days work.

This discussion is starting to renew my feelings that no one should receive a military commission who hasn't first reached at least the rank of E-5 first.

I'll be the first guy to sign a petition to have non-enlisted personnel treated with more respect. Don't get me wrong about that. The point I'm trying to make is this. Starfleet is a highly academic and scientific community. Manifold more than today's military. In Starfleet, regardless of people being commissioned or not, they will be an academic of some sort, and at the higher ends they will be very accomplished academics with PHDs and Master's degrees and publications. Something you don't see that much of in today’s military. Which doesn't mean it’s bad or useless. It's good for the job it’s intended to do. Starfleet just has many other jobs that it does in addition to defence. Now because of Starfleet's primary objective being exploration and discovery this will be reflected in the structure of Starfleet Academy. It won't just offer Bachelor degrees but will cover the whole academic spectrum and be heavily involved in churning out vast amounts of research. Otherwise Starfleet wouldn't have the necessary knowhow to do all the things that it does. And finally in the 24th century automation has progressed far enough to eliminate most menial jobs, so there is no need for inexperienced personnel to carry out such tasks. We only hear about such things on the shows as a means for punishment.

 

[The Wormhole]

A thought I just had on this matter, it would actually make quite a bit of sense that while a military, Starfleet would place more emphasis on educating its cadets on scientific matters than today's militaries do. After all, in space all manner of things happen which would require some sort of scientific knowledge, and therefore you need to have qualified scientific personel aboard the ship.

 

[Sci]

The point I'm trying to make is this. Starfleet is a highly academic and scientific community. Manifold more than today's military. In Starfleet, regardless of people being commissioned or not, they will be an academic of some sort, and at the higher ends they will be very accomplished academics with PHDs and Master's degrees and publications.

Will they? There have been numerous Starfleet characters that don't show nearly as much academic/scientific trains of thought as you're implying. There's no reason to think that Starfleet is particularly dominated by one mission type or another -- science and defense are co-equal missions for the Federation.

 

[Jefferies]

The point I'm trying to make is this. Starfleet is a highly academic and scientific community. Manifold more than today's military. In Starfleet, regardless of people being commissioned or not, they will be an academic of some sort, and at the higher ends they will be very accomplished academics with PHDs and Master's degrees and publications.

Will they? There have been numerous Starfleet characters that don't show nearly as much academic/scientific trains of thought as you're implying. There's no reason to think that Starfleet is particularly dominated by one mission type or another -- science and defense are co-equal missions for the Federation.

On the 24th century shows all the principle Starfleet characters regardless of their position and function have very high levels of academic education and enormous technical and scientific expertise. Doesn't matter if they are pilots, work in opperations, security, as tactical officers, or any other non-primary science department. Then look at a guy like Neelix, someone with no academic science background. He had a hard time finding meaningful work on Voyager and was very much in awe of the competence of his crewmates. Starfleet opperates in such a technical and scientific environment that anyone who hasn't done loads of formal study in such areas will not be able to contribute much because they will have difficulties understanding what is going on.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

^ I'm guessing (could be wrong, so excuse if so) that your view is a bit... broader... than what in general any military academy (or even non-military 'academy') is geared towards.

What you're describing is more of a strategic vision of a Starfleet education program. In RL, at least, that's what we have.

My school had one overarching mission -- produce quality future officers. To do so, you can a broad degree of exposure to most of the missions of the services, the types of jobs the various ranks & rates do on a daily basis, and the aforementioned Bachelor's degree. Along with the leadership studies, etc., that's a good start. (Emphasis on the last word.)

Once you're out in the fleet/active duty, there's no stopping (and active encouragement) to continue learning. There's a plethora of various programs designed & offered to send you to other colleges/universities for you to earn a Master's or PHd if desired, certifications for whatever, etc. They're not part of the Academy, but run by the Human Resources branch (which the Academy falls under).

Indeed, I can attest (after serving on a couple of selection & promotion boards) that if someone hasn't continued their education somehow... My "warning light" goes off, and that particular individual's file goes over to (what I call) the "Grey Pile", i.e. neither a guaranteed "winner" nor "loser" for that selection board, but one that warrants further scrutiny & questioning as to WHY that individual hasn't pursued anything.

So, to summarize -- a modern military academy is very focused on one goal, i.e. developing/nurturing future officers. The various enlisted schools, including boot camp, have the same thing -- develop future enlisted personnel with the rudimentary knowledge to do well from the start out in the fleet. In short, "give them enough to survive, then it's their decision to go forward or not."

(And no, that's not a "down-check" to any enlisted people out there, as there's no way in heck I could do some of the things you guys & gals accomplish on a regular basis.)

As for Neelix -- he was definitely a fish out of water, since he was alongside crew who had been around the level of tech VOY had onboard pretty much most of their lives, or at least exposed to it in some way, shape, or form.

It's very similar to what we're finding now with the latest generation, actually. For instance, the machinery control system for our latest cutter is a 'typical' GUI / mouse system on the operator/surface level. The first words out of the System Operator Course instructor's mouth are basically, 'Grab the mouse and play for 2 hours. THEN we'll talk.'

Hope this makes sense -- I haven't had coffee yet this morning, so bear with me.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Jefferies]

^ I'm guessing (could be wrong, so excuse if so) that your view is a bit... broader... than what in general any military academy (or even non-military 'academy') is geared towards.

What you're describing is more of a strategic vision of a Starfleet education program. In RL, at least, that's what we have.

My school had one overarching mission -- produce quality future officers. To do so, you can a broad degree of exposure to most of the missions of the services, the types of jobs the various ranks & rates do on a daily basis, and the aforementioned Bachelor's degree. Along with the leadership studies, etc., that's a good start. (Emphasis on the last word.)

Once you're out in the fleet/active duty, there's no stopping (and active encouragement) to continue learning. There's a plethora of various programs designed & offered to send you to other colleges/universities for you to earn a Master's or PHd if desired, certifications for whatever, etc. They're not part of the Academy, but run by the Human Resources branch (which the Academy falls under).

Indeed, I can attest (after serving on a couple of selection & promotion boards) that if someone hasn't continued their education somehow... My "warning light" goes off, and that particular individual's file goes over to (what I call) the "Grey Pile", i.e. neither a guaranteed "winner" nor "loser" for that selection board, but one that warrants further scrutiny & questioning as to WHY that individual hasn't pursued anything.

So, to summarize -- a modern military academy is very focused on one goal, i.e. developing/nurturing future officers. The various enlisted schools, including boot camp, have the same thing -- develop future enlisted personnel with the rudimentary knowledge to do well from the start out in the fleet. In short, "give them enough to survive, then it's their decision to go forward or not."

(And no, that's not a "down-check" to any enlisted people out there, as there's no way in heck I could do some of the things you guys & gals accomplish on a regular basis.)

As for Neelix -- he was definitely a fish out of water, since he was alongside crew who had been around the level of tech VOY had onboard pretty much most of their lives, or at least exposed to it in some way, shape, or form.

It's very similar to what we're finding now with the latest generation, actually. For instance, the machinery control system for our latest cutter is a 'typical' GUI / mouse system on the operator/surface level. The first words out of the System Operator Course instructor's mouth are basically, 'Grab the mouse and play for 2 hours. THEN we'll talk.'

Hope this makes sense -- I haven't had coffee yet this morning, so bear with me.

Cheers,
-CM-

Don't worry you are making a lot of sense and I found your post most enlightning! So basically you are saying education and development of skills is at the heart of military life today and that this covers wide areas including academic fields. That of course, makes a lot of sense. However, I would still maintain that the ethos of Starfleet and its educational institutions is geared towards producing scientists, researchers and technical specialists rather than soldiers.

 

[T'Girl]

How many of the officers had PhD's and masters? Obviously McCoy, Crusher and Bashir were MD's. Who else, Spock I can easily see with multiple PhD's, Scott with one in physics, Sulu in astrophysics. Chaple had a career in research before joining the Enterprise so at least a masters. Kirk taught at the academy so another masters. Unless we're going to say everyone had one then the rest of the TOS crew has less. Uhura (and others) was never indicated as attending the academy, so maybe she was a mustang who came up through OTS.

Who else is a PhD, Picard (archeology?), LaForge, Data (if he just downloaded information, maybe not a degree), the impression I have is that Deanna isn't a PhD, but a masters in psychology.

With DS9 just Dax for sure.

Anyone on Voyager? Maybe Janeway, maybe not. On Enterprise, T'Pol (equivalency), hard to say.

 

[Jefferies]

I always had the impression Janeway had a PhD, but now I can't find anything on google to back that assumption up so maybe she didn't. But she was an accomplished scientist nonetheless. I'm not sure about Picard either, the info on his Academy years is a bit scetchy with regard to academic accomplishments. He didn't seem to be a model student. But many postgrad qualifications are probably picked up while people are actively serving on Starships anyway, carrying out research missions and the likes.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

To be honest, I don't think Starfleet Academy compares to any current military training college. I always had the impression it's much more similar to current elite universities with faculties and proper academic departments. After all, most Starfleet personnel are scientists that have to be capable of carrying out and analysing cutting edge research on a daily basis. Yes, it also teaches things like combat, service protocol and survival strategies but overall the science dominates the curriculum. For example, Tom Paris, a pilot, didn't major in piloting but graduated in astrophysics and Data, an operations officer, graduated in exobiology and quantum physics.

Yeah. The academy probably offers one course in contemporary tactics, that's as militaristic as they come.

I remember the "Peak Performance" episode which sort of highlights how unmilitaristic they really are. Most of the courses would have to be in all manner of sciences no doubt, with a background in engineering. Additionally, those on the command path would need good amount of leadership and starship operations knowledge.

 

[Jefferies]

Yeah. The academy probably offers one course in contemporary tactics, that's as militaristic as they come.

I remember the "Peak Performance" episode which sort of highlights how unmilitaristic they really are. Most of the courses would have to be in all manner of sciences no doubt, with a background in engineering. Additionally, those on the command path would need good amount of leadership and starship operations knowledge.

They would. However, I don't see why such knowledge couldn't be learn't on the job, say as a bridge officer for example or leading a specialist department. Sisko and Janeway both changed to command at a late point in their careers. Sisko was an engineer up to the rank of Lt Cmd and Janeway was a science officer before being promoted to XO.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Yeah. The academy probably offers one course in contemporary tactics, that's as militaristic as they come.

I remember the "Peak Performance" episode which sort of highlights how unmilitaristic they really are. Most of the courses would have to be in all manner of sciences no doubt, with a background in engineering. Additionally, those on the command path would need good amount of leadership and starship operations knowledge.

They would. However, I don't see why such knowledge couldn't be learn't on the job, say as a bridge officer for example or leading a specialist department. Sisko and Janeway both changed to command at a late point in their careers. Sisko was an engineer up to the rank of Lt Cmd and Janeway was a science officer before being promoted to XO.

Yeah, I think majority of their knowledge would come from experience in some cases. We've seen Saavik constantly being mentored by Spock, Westley by Picard, and Nog by Sisko but to a lesser degree. It's not unreasonable to assume that this mentorship would include some recommended reading by the mentor besides the already seen on the job learning.

 

[Sci]

However, I would still maintain that the ethos of Starfleet and its educational institutions is geared towards producing scientists, researchers and technical specialists rather than soldiers.

Then you are ignoring Kirk's declaration that he is a soldier, not a diplomat, in "Errand of Mercy," and Nog's declaration that he is a soldier and that means something in "Valiant."

Starfleet produces both, because both are needed. It's a mistake to place primacy over one or the other -- defense and science are co-equal.

 

[Jefferies]

However, I would still maintain that the ethos of Starfleet and its educational institutions is geared towards producing scientists, researchers and technical specialists rather than soldiers.

Then you are ignoring Kirk's declaration that he is a soldier, not a diplomat, in "Errand of Mercy," and Nog's declaration that he is a soldier and that means something in "Valiant."

Starfleet produces both, because both are needed. It's a mistake to place primacy over one or the other -- defense and science are co-equal.

But in his colusion with the renegade cadets Nog is acting misguidedly. So, he isn't really seeing things clearly in that episode. And Kirk is a special case. He is one of the few officers who trained for command right from the start, with a focus on tactical and military science. Most capaints that we know of changed to command at later stages in their career. Good examples include Sisko, Janeway, Spock and Will Riker. They will fight to defend the Federation, if that makes them soldiers in your view then I would say that's a matter of semantics but their career experience does not really reflect that when compared to people who serve in current militaries.

 

[Sci]

However, I would still maintain that the ethos of Starfleet and its educational institutions is geared towards producing scientists, researchers and technical specialists rather than soldiers.

Then you are ignoring Kirk's declaration that he is a soldier, not a diplomat, in "Errand of Mercy," and Nog's declaration that he is a soldier and that means something in "Valiant."

Starfleet produces both, because both are needed. It's a mistake to place primacy over one or the other -- defense and science are co-equal.

But in his colusion with the renegade cadets Nog is acting misguidedly. So, he isn't really seeing things clearly in that episode.

Yes, insofar as he began following a bunch of children who thought they were real soldiers rather than following the established rules of military conduct.

And Kirk is a special case. He is one of the few officers who trained for command right from the start, with a focus on tactical and military science. Most capaints that we know of changed to command at later stages in their career. Good examples include Sisko, Janeway, Spock and Will Riker.

None of which changes the fact that they're also soldiers simply by being command officers.

You keep insisting that Starfleet doesn't place equal emphasis on defense as it does on science. Why? How can you say that when the scientists in Project Genesis call Starfleet the military in STII? When Starfleet is called upon to defend the Federation in times of war, and execute martial law in times of crisis? When large percentages of Starfleet crews are composed of security officers who are neither scientists nor command officers?

 

[Jefferies]

Then you are ignoring Kirk's declaration that he is a soldier, not a diplomat, in "Errand of Mercy," and Nog's declaration that he is a soldier and that means something in "Valiant."

Starfleet produces both, because both are needed. It's a mistake to place primacy over one or the other -- defense and science are co-equal.

But in his colusion with the renegade cadets Nog is acting misguidedly. So, he isn't really seeing things clearly in that episode.

Yes, insofar as he began following a bunch of children who thought they were real soldiers rather than following the established rules of military conduct.

And Kirk is a special case. He is one of the few officers who trained for command right from the start, with a focus on tactical and military science. Most capaints that we know of changed to command at later stages in their career. Good examples include Sisko, Janeway, Spock and Will Riker.

None of which changes the fact that they're also soldiers simply by being command officers.

You keep insisting that Starfleet doesn't place equal emphasis on defense as it does on science. Why? How can you say that when the scientists in Project Genesis call Starfleet the military in STII? When Starfleet is called upon to defend the Federation in times of war, and execute martial law in times of crisis? When large percentages of Starfleet crews are composed of security officers who are neither scientists nor command officers?

Well, Tuvok is a security officer for example and he seemed to have an awful lot of expertise in engineering and science. He might not to be a researcher but he seems to be in the technical specialist category. Also, your main period of reference seems to be the 23rd century. Whereas I'm arguing more with the 24th century in mind. Look at TNG and Voyager and forget the war interludes from DS9 for a moment. Do you really want to tell me that most of the characters on those shows resemble current notions of soldiers? As someone who has been attending university for a while their activities, if anything, seem much more similar to the kind I have observed from the civilian academic staff. (I realise that there are limits to that analogy)

 

[Sci]

Well, Tuvok is a security officer for example and he seemed to have an awful lot of expertise in engineering and science.

He had expertise in military sciences, certainly -- weapons and the like. But he was hardly a Spock-style scientist.

Also, your main period of reference seems to be the 23rd century.

No, it's both centuries.

Whereas I'm arguing more with the 24th century in mind. Look at TNG and Voyager and forget the war interludes from DS9 for a moment.

But you can't forget the war interludes. They're as much the defining missions for Starfleet as science. The Federation is surrounded by hostile, expansionist empires in the Romulans, Cardassians, Tholians, Tzenkethi, Talarians, and, off and on, the Klingons. Starfleet is almost constantly engaging in defensive actions against those empires -- how many times has Starfleet had to head to the Neutral Zone because the Romulans were acting up? And goodness knows the Dominion War endangered the very existence of the Federation.

Do you really want to tell me that most of the characters on those shows resemble current notions of soldiers?

And what do you consider "current notions" of soldiers? What, exactly, is a soldier to you?

 

[EmperorTiberius]

^Just because Starfleet has a military role and its members sometimes call themselves soldiers, it doesn't mean that 50% of courses at the academy would be military courses. It's simply not necessary. Shooting a phaser and learning a few basic maneuvers and contemporary tactics is easy compared to extensive and time-consuming studying of calculus and physics and whatever else would be required in the 24th century space-faring culture.

 

[T'Girl]

The academy of Kirk's time and the other's times might be so vastly different that other than being call "The Academy" they are two totally seperate places. Between Kirk's entrance and Nog's there was over a century.

Picard experience during Tapestry showed that there are technicians and scientists (can't remember what Picard was) who never rise in rank and serve out their careers in one specialty.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Hope that all makes sense -- hard to explain without this becoming an even more long-winded post.

I dare say such an informative post would be most useful around here.

"... not a military academy..."
Balls!!