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Ground troops and ground combat

Remember that the Feds didn't build Data, Dr Soong did. And no one else was able to replicate his work, nor did they want to create a new race of sentient beings for purely "slave" work. They have to stand by their own stance on sentient beings.

As for the Doc, they see him as a fluke. Nor did they have mobile emitter tech at hand either. By the time the ME is distributed they may change their stance on Holograms as well (plus, perhaps the ME is more costly than a trained group trooper).
 
Not when you want to capture and hold those worlds, rather than just destroy them.

But that's the only thing ground forces are good for - destroying what you are trying to obtain, piece by piece.

If you threaten a world with The End, you may capture it intact. Nobody down there wants to die just for the dubious fun of preventing you from getting the planet. Not when they have zero opportunity to fight back.

However, if you deploy troops down there, the natives will fight back, even if with bare hands or cooking utensils. Soon the world will lie in ruins, and lots of people on both sides will be dead, maimed and crippled. Resistance will hamper your attempts at exploiting what little you did get, and the only way to end that resistance is to do what you should have done in the first place: to utterly terminate the population, or then to blackmail it with a threat of this action.

Ground troops don't capture and hold. They fumble and bleed. Doomsday weapons, or the threat of them, is what captures and holds. At least that's the way it happened in the real world between 1945 and, well, now.

Remember that the Feds didn't build Data, Dr Soong did. And no one else was able to replicate his work

Umm, it could just as well be that nobody else was interested. After all, what good was Data? A somewhat superior lifeform, thus a piece of wasted time and effort when it comes to the worthier goal of making life superior for already existing forms. Data was a work of vanity, and only Soong seemed interested in channeling his vanity in that particular direction.

nor did they want to create a new race of sentient beings for purely "slave" work.

They could have created a "race" of fighting automatons by using most of Data but leaving out his brain. They readily build "races" of fighters and other slaves (for example the Excelsior race of starships); they just feel bad about imposing slavery on certain types of machinery or life that remind them of themselves.

However, I don't see the Federation building a "race" of ground combat robots even if there's no element of moral unease involved. A ground combat robot would only be a slightly better variant of the live infantryman, and why bother having those? Infantrymen and their mechanical counterparts are targets for the enemy; victory is best achieved by depriving the enemy of targets.

They have to stand by their own stance on sentient beings.

I don't think they really have one. They like life that is like themselves. They fear and loathe many other sorts of life, be it stupid or clever, uncaring or feeling. "Sentience" (a disgustingly ill-defined concept) is only thrown around when minds are already made up on protecting a certain form of life.

The Borg are certainly sentient. Their lifestyle differs, though, and some parts of it remind the humans and humanoids uncomfortably about their own history of oppression and slavery. Thus, there's no "stance" that would honor and protect the Borg lifestyle, not even the good parts of it.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Thanks Timo, I was thinking exactly along your lines.

You don't have to have strong sentient AI for a good combat robot. The thing is if they can make automated doctors, they can make automated soldiers. And the EMH was not sentient by design, as has been stated above. So I don't see the ethical dilemma with using such technology to prevent real people from getting KIA.
 
Can't AI's just be screwed with thanks to generic radiations fields or whatever other technobabble excuse? Sure, organic lifeforms can be messed with as well but it tends to be a more variety of things to do that.

As for taking a planet, what if the planet has defenses to withstand planetary attack? It's like with Star Wars: They had shielding tech to withstand orbital bombardment so the Imperials just sent ground forces in.
 
Can't AI's just be screwed with thanks to generic radiations fields or whatever other technobabble excuse? Sure, organic lifeforms can be messed with as well but it tends to be a more variety of things to do that.

As for taking a planet, what if the planet has defenses to withstand planetary attack? It's like with Star Wars: They had shielding tech to withstand orbital bombardment so the Imperials just sent ground forces in.

Well Data seemed to do quite well in combat situations. He didn't seem to be any more likely to get disabled in action than any of his organic crewmates. So given the right technology I believe machines could be made immune to things like EMPs and stuff like that. After all on a starship organic people are entirely dependent on technology not shutting down. So I'm sure they have already found a way to deal with electronic counter measures and the likes. Also, who is to say that robots in the future aren't made of organic components?
 
However, if you deploy troops down there, the natives will fight back, even if with bare hands or cooking utensils. Soon the world will lie in ruins, and lots of people on both sides will be dead, maimed and crippled. Resistance will hamper your attempts at exploiting what little you did get
Honestly, with Trek-level technology, unless they are very, very good, I don't see how any resistence could seriously hurt an invader. Your not interested in controling the population - you have no use from them. You just take the location that you want (an industrial replicator facility, a mine, whatever), remove the civilians, slap a strong shield around it and position a starship above it. For all you care, the 'resistence' could have a million soldiers out there - but without some serious firepower (and your starship will easilly deal with that) they can hardly do anything to you.
to utterly terminate the population, or then to blackmail it with a threat of this action.

The Dominion, yeah. But you really think the Feds would do something like that?
 
Remember that the Feds didn't build Data, Dr Soong did. And no one else was able to replicate his work, nor did they want to create a new race of sentient beings for purely "slave" work. They have to stand by their own stance on sentient beings.

As for the Doc, they see him as a fluke. Nor did they have mobile emitter tech at hand either. By the time the ME is distributed they may change their stance on Holograms as well (plus, perhaps the ME is more costly than a trained group trooper).
Yet they had more realistic androids in TOS all the time...
 
The disparaging of the military, belittling what they do and even worse, belittling who they are. And hardly anybody (with a few brave exceptions) is willing to stand up against it. At least online, that is!

And a lot of it is based on outright ignorance. At least I hope it's ignorance, because the alternative is not pleasant to think about.
 
How do you mean?

I am proudly serving in the US military, I have bleed on sand and stone. I have seen friends not come home. There are men and women on the edge of oblivion walking the streets of hell every day so we can sit here and toss words on screen without fear.
 
^ Exactly. You have a purpose, a reason for being. You provide a valuable service. People like Timo here would do well to remember that.

Hey Timo, you listening? I think you owe this man an apology. In fact, you owe him everything. Look at what you just said:

But that's the only thing ground forces are good for - destroying

I think we all know that's not true.
 
Remember that the Feds didn't build Data, Dr Soong did. And no one else was able to replicate his work, nor did they want to create a new race of sentient beings for purely "slave" work. They have to stand by their own stance on sentient beings.

As for the Doc, they see him as a fluke. Nor did they have mobile emitter tech at hand either. By the time the ME is distributed they may change their stance on Holograms as well (plus, perhaps the ME is more costly than a trained group trooper).
Yet they had more realistic androids in TOS all the time...

Soong showed he could make an android indistinguishable from a human with Julianna, he deliberately made Data and Lore inhuman so he could show off that they were androids and that they could learn and grow on their own.

Plus, all those droids in TOS were either made by super-advanced aliens or super-geniuses. Not the Feds.
 
Can't AI's just be screwed with thanks to generic radiations fields or whatever other technobabble excuse? Sure, organic lifeforms can be messed with as well but it tends to be a more variety of things to do that.

That's a somewhat unrealistic aspect of most science fiction. If the alien force of the week can mess with the heroes' computers or weapons from afar, it should probably be equally capable of messing with their minds or muscles. Jamming a submachine gun or an electric motor at a distance is bound to be much more difficult than jamming a heart or a brain!

As for taking a planet, what if the planet has defenses to withstand planetary attack? It's like with Star Wars: They had shielding tech to withstand orbital bombardment so the Imperials just sent ground forces in.

Trek doesn't believe in planetary shields, it seems. And if the planet is defended, then by definition you can't send the ground forces in. If you could, you could equally well send bombs.

^ Exactly. You have a purpose, a reason for being. You provide a valuable service. People like Timo here would do well to remember that.

Perhaps in today's environment. But the argument was about Star Trek.

Hey Timo, you listening? I think you owe this man an apology. In fact, you owe him everything.

Hmh? He's the enemy. His folks killed my folks in the last big one. If anything, I wish him and his family a horrible, horrible death.

If I owe "everything" to somebody, it's to the soldiers who killed the likes of him. But that's ancient past, from time long before I was born. After that time, all that US soldiers have done is make life worse for me, but they haven't exactly been a direct mortal threat. So I might scale back on that "horrible, horrible death" a bit. Perhaps just "horrible" would do?

Look at what you just said [..] I think we all know that's not true.

What else are ground troops good for, then? Harvesting fields and building levees? Hardly a reason to organize them into "ground troops".

Timo Saloniemi
 
How do you mean?

I am proudly serving in the US military, I have bleed on sand and stone. I have seen friends not come home. There are men and women on the edge of oblivion walking the streets of hell every day so we can sit here and toss words on screen without fear.

What the hell?

Why are you acting like I'm the one disagreeing with or attacking you? I just told you I hate when people belittle the troops and you're getting angry with me?

I mean, good God--I'm not the one in this thread who's threatening people...
 
Nobody's threatening anybody, but it is becoming a bit dicey in here. Timo, please keep in mind that your comments do come pretty close to a line. Be respectful of others while they're on this board.

And, for the love of God, everyone stop demanding apologies in an open forum. when does that ever lead to something good?
 
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