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Ground troops and ground combat

Well, we've only seen three Klingon Generals (Brigadier Kirla, General Chang, General Martok) so having seen only one Klingon Admiral isn't so bad.

After all, the commanders of the vessels themselves use the Navy rank of Captain. So it probably can be justified as a translation issue.

As for West, we can fanwank it that they used the Soviet Rank of Colonel-General which would give him the equivalent rank of a full Admiral/4-Star General.

And thank you iguana, I think I will incorporate the RAF's ranks for the Federation Aerospace Force. It'll diversify it a bit.
 
Well, we've only seen three Klingon Generals (Brigadier Kirla, General Chang, General Martok) so having seen only one Klingon Admiral isn't so bad.
Well, Memory Alpha lists seven other Klingon Generals aside from those.
After all, the commanders of the vessels themselves use the Navy rank of Captain. So it probably can be justified as a translation issue.
True - though Captain in some of these cases could just as well be the Army rank of Captain (a few ranks below the Navy counterpart); after all, some of those Bird-of-Preys are awfully small, so you would hardly expect them to be commanded by a full Navy Captain (unless 'Captain' in these cases signifies position, not rank).

Maybe Klingons utilise some weird mix of navy/army ranks (kind of like the Colonial Fleet in nuBSG)?
 
Ah, so it's like Fullmetal Alchemist: The President's first name is "King" so he's "President King Bradley" even though the government is a Dictatorship and everyone treats him like royalty anyways...

Maybe the Klingons use the Babylon 5 rank systems where we have Generals commanding Starships even though we know there are Admirals around.
 
I wonder if there'd really be any rationale in dividing the fighting forces to space and ground, functionally speaking. Why not some more imaginative divisions? Such as a separate force for fighting in deep space and at warp, and a separate one for fighting in star systems and at impulse? Those might be at least as different from each other as ground and air fighting are today.

As for Admiral Cornell-West, let's remember that people in the President's office were being addressed by their names (sometimes their first names) as often as by their ranks. I don't think either "Admiral Bill" or Admiral Cartwright would have felt obligated to call the third Starfleeter in the room by rank; using his last name would be more likely.

Ditto for the second time we heard Cornell-West mentioned, after his death. The Starfleet person muttering his name wouldn't have felt the need to mutter his rank...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Starfleet Marines... there really isn't a need for them. While most of the combat is fought in space. I always thought the ship's security forces are beamed down to rescue hostages or do commando style raids on the planet. DS9 was the only series that could introduce the Starfleeet Marines in the Dominion War. The Romulans had the Remans and the Dominion have the Jem'Hadar. I think if we ever do have a military space unit. They would follow the Air Force chain of command.
 
I always thought the ship's security forces are beamed down to rescue hostages or do commando style raids on the planet.

I don't think so. Security guards don't fight on the front lines. They are for that specific purpose: providing security on board a starship or base.

You can't have too much generalization. Call it whatever you want, but there must be a separate division that does nothing BUT fight on the ground. If there wasn't, if they just pulled personnel from other divisions whenever it suited them, they'd end up with substandard troops.

I mean, on sports teams, they don't just have everyone playing every position, do they? You can't take, for example, a right fielder and expect them to pitch, or a shortstop and make them catcher, etc. Specialization is mandatory for efficiency.

And don't give me that business about "Colonel" being West's first name. That's just too silly.
 
And one of the local military PR people here, a household name thanks to his TV appearances, has the last name "Majuri", or Major. We've learned to know him as Captain Major, Major Major and Lieutenant Colonel Major, although I believe he's Colonel Major nowadays (and no longer doing TV stints).

We also have a TV meteorologist named Pouta (Clearskies), a recently late astronomer named Tähtinen (Starry), and a host of other such "nomen est omen" careers. Perhaps poor Clarence Colonel-West just plain couldn't help becoming a cowboy-style soldier?

Call it whatever you want, but there must be a separate division that does nothing BUT fight on the ground.

And this could be what they have for shipboard security, on those dull intervals between ground fighting.

I mean, it doesn't really matter if shipboard security is "second rate", as that job isn't particularly demanding and wouldn't much benefit from "skill". Marines did just fine as shipboard security back in the navies of yore, even if they were trained principally for the jobs of ground fighting, deck fighting, and sharpshooting in naval battles.

Timo Saloniemi
 
And don't give me that business about "Colonel" being West's first name. That's just too silly.

But there's actually a man named Cornell West! He exists! In real life!

Whenever West was referred to by name, no one ever said 'Colonel' like it was a name. And there is a proper way to say this sort of thing. When West gave the briefing, the Admiral introduced him thus: "Colonel West?" If Colonel had been his first name, then the admiral would have said "Mr. West?" or given West's "real" rank. No one would say his first and last names like that. How many times did Riker, for example, say "Jean-Luc Picard" when on the bridge?

And when West was unmasked as the Klingon assassin, the Admiral said it again..."It's Colonel West!" If that was just a name, there's no way he would have said it like that.

You can believe that West was really a Vice-Admiral, say, and that Colonel was just a title. As I said earlier, there's precedent for that. West could have the actual rank of Admiral but for the purposes of his leading the briefing (and presumably the mission itself) he could have had the title of 'colonel of the regiment', like a General in the British Army could. That's not too hard to believe, is it? (Of course, I personally am sticking with the idea that Colonel is his actual rank, and that the Marines, or MACOS, or whatever they are, just happen to have uniforms that look a lot like Starfleet's.)
 
Whenever West was referred to by name, no one ever said 'Colonel' like it was a name.

What does that mean? The guy was mentioned in dialogue exactly twice, and both times he was called "Cornell West" (or "Colonel West" or whatever). He was never called just "West" or just "Cornell" or "Colonel".

To compare, another flag officer was also mentioned twice: first he was "The CinC", then he was "Bill". Not "Mr.Smillie" or "Admiral Smillie" but just "Bill". These people aren't locked to one mode of address here.

And when West was unmasked as the Klingon assassin, the Admiral said it again..."It's Colonel West!" If that was just a name, there's no way he would have said it like that.

That's how it would be said if Cornell West was the man's surname. With or without a hyphen.

You can believe that West was really a Vice-Admiral, say, and that Colonel was just a title.

Possible, certainly. And not necessarily even a military title - there's precedent for that in the real world, too.

Incidentally, ST5 featured somebody supposedly named St.John Talbot. Did that mean that the guy was a saint (followed by the question "What does saint mean as a title in the 2280s?")? Or that his first name was St.John? Or that his last name in full was St.John Talbot? Or that the guys in his band called their leading vocalist "the Saint" just for fun?

Timo Saloniemi
 
All right, so I was thinking, what would the general tactics and weapons look like? (I'm assuming a situation where one side has pretty much complete domination over orbital space - cause, unless you're really in a hurry or something goes really wrong, you won't even atempt a landing before achieving that. Also, I'm assuming it's the Feds who are attacking (with the intent of taking somethimg, not just blowing it up), not some immoral, mass-murdering empire).

First the defenders:

- Well, given those superpowerful sensors, obviously the first thing you'd want is to avoid detection. Even if the enemy does know your general location (you're protecting a fixed asset), you'd want to deny him as much information as possible. So - sensor jammers, dampening fields, false sensor emmisions, natural interference. I assume that with a big enough device (or a solid number of them) you could cover maybe even an entire city.
Then again, since you can't exactly jamm visual observation, you'll also want to get out of the open and use some good old fashioned camouflage (or if you prefer something more high tech, holograms). Urban and wooded environments will obviously be a good choice. Maybe a few smoke screens (though, given how advanced their weather control technology is, smoke and adverse weather, like clouds, could probably be dealt with by an invader).

- When the enemy does know where you are, you need some protection from his fire. Shields, even huge city-covering ones, would probably be used, but given that you can pound them from orbit with impunity, they would be just a way of slowing down the enemy. Actually, smaller shields used in ground forces combat could prove more useful, since they would be harder to precisely hit from orbit.
Aside from shields, you'd probably also want to dig your positions as deeply under-ground as you can - or if you are sneaky, put them under or mixed with civilian-populated areas. I assume a simple building is enough to protect you from the starships phasers stunning effect?

- Restricting enemy mobility. Transporters are enormuosly powerfull (and not just for mobility, but also as weapons - you can easilly beam your enemies out of the way), So - transport inhibitors and scramblers, in various shapes and sizes, scattered around your positions. If it's possible, maybe even a small personal transport inhibitor for every soldier.
Sensor jammers could prove enough, though, cause I'm not sure transporters can really work without precise sensor information. Some hidden and highly mobile (cause, the moment you fire, the starship in orbit will pretty much know exactly where you are) surface-to-air systems for shooting down enemy shuttles.

- Your own mobility. Well, obviously, you can't move in the open. And like I said, you need it badly. So, hidden, camouflaged tunnels and paths, perhaps vehicles. Transporters (your own jammers could prevent this, though - can you beam or scan through your own interference? maybe use landline-connected fixed transporters to avoid the interference?).

Come to think of it, if your countermeasures are working, it's not really that disimilar to modern combat. Or I'm just too unimaginitive?

P.S. Yeah, I definitely think too much about these things. :lol: And there's more to come!
 
I don't think so. Security guards don't fight on the front lines. They are for that specific purpose: providing security on board a starship or base.

You can't have too much generalization. Call it whatever you want, but there must be a separate division that does nothing BUT fight on the ground. If there wasn't, if they just pulled personnel from other divisions whenever it suited them, they'd end up with substandard troops.

I mean, on sports teams, they don't just have everyone playing every position, do they? You can't take, for example, a right fielder and expect them to pitch, or a shortstop and make them catcher, etc. Specialization is mandatory for efficiency.

But you know, Starfleet has such mission confusion that I actually wouldn't be surprised if they DID fail to maintain dedicated ground combat units like the Cardassian Guard does, and pull personnel from other divisions (like Security/Tactical). Starfleet doesn't know whether it's a military, a UN-like peacekeeping force, or an exploratory force, and depending on what the particular crop of admiralty has had as part of their experience (whether they knew war or peace more), I would not be surprised if they did make what these days would seem like elementary personnel blunders.

And I would not be surprised if those blunders led directly to people getting killed (and might contribute to the fracas in the early days of the Dominion War, where Starfleet just couldn't get it together).
 
Has anyone considered that they might use robotic or droid combat units for specific ground combat missions? Such situations are extremly high risk. So surely, in the 24th century, there must be better ways then sending people into terrestrial war zones. We know they could build such machines, after all they made Data and the Doc on Voyager, so how hard can it be.

I know DS9 never hinted at this and showed regular Starfleet personnel in both the Siege of AR-558 and Nor the Battle to the Strong (the guys with the black jackets had regular Starfleet uniforms under them). But maybe these were situations that were special in some way and don't represent usual Starfleet tactics.
 
Look at Halo.

Now I really like those video games, they are about the only ones I really like playing, but the concept of large scale ground battles between two 20th/21st century style armies in an age where entire planets can be blasted from orbit feels forced and artificial.

That said, to me in the ST universe we have yet to see any major ground battles, save for those on "savage" backwater worlds not worthy of the Federation admission. It just may not be part of the universal culture of the ST'verse.
 
the concept of large scale ground battles between two 20th/21st century style armies in an age where entire planets can be blasted from orbit feels forced and artificial.

Not when you want to capture and hold those worlds, rather than just destroy them.
 
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