If Kira Joined Dukat

[mysticgeek]

What do you guys think would be cool if Kira would have joined Dukat's crew when he stole the Bird of Prey in "Return to Grace"?
Ziyal wanted her to stay... they had a great relationship... and Dukat's request to have Kira stay and join forces with him was rather tempting... no matter what she says... she was thinking about it. I think it would have been great for the war against the Klingon's at the time. Also, their alliance together would have brought hope and peace to Bajor, Cardassia, and with the Federation.
I know you're all going to say Dukat was a horrible person and she hates him... blah blah...But it would have been an interesting storyline nonetheless. Thoughts?

 

[Eyes]

It wouldn't fit, because she was a main charator and needed to be on DS9, besides she hated Dukat and disliked most cardassians. She was that sort of person however even if she disliked the crew.... but her world wasn't occupied by Klingons and I remember in that episode she told Ziyal that she could never forgive Dukat.

So overall for the characters purposes and for the shows purposes it was better as it was

Nice idea though

 

[SISKOTODAX]

Actually this could have been another way to handle nana's pregnancy. Instead of putting Keiko's baby in Kira they could have had Kira be mainly offscreen on Dukat's warbird. Maybe do one episode on his ship before she started to really show. She returns to DS9 early season 5. Would have made the Kira-Dukat-Ziyal relationships even more interesting.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

It would have been interesting, that's granted, but it also would have weakened the hostility between Kira and Dukat, making an episode like "Covenant" impossible...

However you could also argue that it might just have put Dukat on a different track and that he wouldn't have ended up allying with the pah-wraiths and turning into a comicbook super-villain.

 

[Navaros]

I don't think Kira would have had enough motivation to join Dukat's crew since it wasn't her cause to save Cardassia.

I do think they should have went with the similar storyline that was floated around and which Alaimo really wanted to do, which was Kira and Dukat having a romantic relationship (eventually they changed the idea to make it Kira's mother, but making it Kira herself would have been way better).

Of course, that would also go hand in hand with them not fubaring Dukat's character in Season 6 and on, which would be an awesome byproduct of going in that direction.

 

[WildWoman]

I think it just goes too much against her character for her to do that.
Granted they all 'grow' but that is pushing it just way too far. Perhaps in a few generations it could be debated. But the war just ended and it's too close for her to be able to choose to work so closely next to him.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Here we go again...

Unless Dukat had a true epiphany--ON HIS OWN, NOT a fake one because he has the hots for Kira, recognized the sinfulness of the things that he did in his past, and sought redemption, it would not have worked. It would also have weakened Kira's character severely, because one of the defining things about her was that she saw things very much in terms of black and white, right and wrong. She had her principles and held to them uncompromisingly.

When we're talking about a Cardassian like Tekeny Ghemor--had Tekeny lived, I could have EASILY seen an extended working relationship between the two of them, and the deepening of the family ties between them. Even with what we did see, it made sense and it felt right for Kira to view Tekeny as her godfather. If there were a Cardassian closer to her age (i.e. where the relationship had not defined itself so early on as father-daughter rather than romantic), then it would make sense.

I'm even willing to go out on a limb and say that maybe, MAYBE if Damar had lived, and we had seen him work during the peacetime era to atone for what he did to Ziyal, MAYBE he and Kira could've related. In his case, we saw definite signs of guilt and remorse. His drinking was probably part of it. And later, when Kira confronted him, ("Yeah, who gives those kind of orders?") you could see that he honestly felt awful. I think if time had gone on, there would be a real likelihood of Damar actually telling Kira and Garak to their faces that he was sorry for what he did and he wished he could take it back. Coming from Damar, I'd believe it. Now, would Damar be ready for a relationship right away, or Kira, for that matter? No. I think if it were to evolve naturally, it would have to be over a long period of time and much soul-searching by both of them. Otherwise it would never make sense.

With Dukat, though...I personally think his sins were so grave that if he ever did feel the entire weight of them, he would likely never be ready for a relationship. Even reconnecting with his Cardassian wife, who left him, or his children beyond Ziyal, is something I suspect would be very difficult for him. I would sooner see him as a monk/penitent in a Bajoran monastery (!) than feeling ready for romance IF he actually repented genuinely.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I do think they should have went with the similar storyline that was floated around and which Alaimo really wanted to do, which was Kira and Dukat having a romantic relationship (eventually they changed the idea to make it Kira's mother, but making it Kira herself would have been way better).

Of course, that would also go hand in hand with them not fubaring Dukat's character in Season 6 and on, which would be an awesome byproduct of going in that direction.

I can't imagine Kira EVER having a romantic relationship with Dukat. It would be like a Holocaust survivor ending up in a romantic relationship with, a still alive, Adolph Hitler in 1949.

I think Hans Beimler and Ira Steven Behr said it best.

Beimler said, "He's always been a Nazi, always. In this episode, you're aware of different shades to his personality. But, if you think about it, they're all very self-serving. This is not a pleasant man. He's done a lot of terrible things."

Behr said, "Dukat is not a nice man. He is not a sensitive man. He likes to act like a sensitive man, but he's a man of appetites to whom public image is very important, much more important than the truth. He wants to be liked by Kira as much as he likes Kira. I find him reprehensible myself."

But then again, I loved what they did with Dukat's character in seasons six and seven. This time I think Ronald Moore said it best. He said, ""I don't think of him as being completely evil through and through to the point where every thought, every impulse is shaded by a nefarious agenda or horrid motive. We've seen other aspects to this guy over the years. He can be charming. He can be generous. He can do the right thing. All of that somehow makes his "evil" actions all the more despicable, because we know that there was the potential in there for him to be a better person. But sometimes the clichés are true: Hitler loved his dog. No human being (and by extension, no Cardassian) is one hundred percent pure evil. But there is a "critical mass", if you will, where the dark deeds attributed to one person become so overwhelming that they swamp all the redeeming characteristics. Dukat is a bad guy. A very bad guy. He has a lot of blood on his hands and it's hard to see how his smile and innate charm can wipe that clean."

BTW, I freely admit I got those quotes from Memory Alpha and the DS9 Companion.

 

[Navaros]

^

I don't agree with the showrunners' opinions about those things.

They say Dukat has done all these evil things, yet what is actually delivered to the audience, in-show, prior to Season 6's deliberate character assasination, does not bear that out in the least bit.

Rather, it bears out a contradictory message to what the showrunners have said in those above quotations. It shows that Dukat did the best he could to improve the lives of Bajorans as an administrator and to mitigate overly harsh penalties that his superiors wanted to implement (ie: solving crimes be executing 10 random Bajorans rather than investigating, but Dukat held an investigation instead).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Just because he might have been a bit more subtle in his cruelty than SOME Cardassians does not make him any better; you can't justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. Furthermore, his motives for any "improvements" were impure to say the least--he didn't want to help the Bajorans for his own sake. He was FAR from being some dissident who'd worked his way into a position of power--FAR from a Tekeny Ghemor type. Any kindness he did was because HE WANTED TO BE WORSHIPPED.

It's exactly, exactly like the emperor Comitus at the end of Gladiator, screaming over Maximus' dying form--"AM I NOT MERCIFUL?!" He only fancies himself that way. But we all know what he is, really...still and always a despot.

 

[Treker]

They did the whole Kiras mum thing and the Zial stuff to tie them together.

They did plenty.

 

[Kira Nerys]

Kira could never have forgiven Dukhat ,it would not have worked .Besides ,she was not on a mission to save cardassisa she had done that with her own world .

 

[Admiral Shran]

^

I don't agree with the showrunners' opinions about those things.

They say Dukat has done all these evil things, yet what is actually delivered to the audience, in-show, prior to Season 6's deliberate character assasination, does not bear that out in the least bit.

Rather, it bears out a contradictory message to what the showrunners have said in those above quotations. It shows that Dukat did the best he could to improve the lives of Bajorans as an administrator and to mitigate overly harsh penalties that his superiors wanted to implement (ie: solving crimes be executing 10 random Bajorans rather than investigating, but Dukat held an investigation instead).

I just don't understand how someone can defend Dukat's actions, either during or after the Occupation.

Let's look at a few things that were established about his character in the first five seasons. I'll include the six-part Dominion War arc at the start of Season Six, because it's before the so-called "character assassination."

Season One:
Duet - He heavily implies that he views Gul Darheel as a military hero and a great man. Darheel was a known war criminal who run what, for all intents and purposes, was a death camp where Bajorans were literally worked into the ground. If that's someone Dukat admires, I think it speaks a lot about his character.

Season Two:
Cardassians - He knowingly seperates a boy from his father and makes the father believe his son has died in the Bajoran Withdrawl. He did all of this to harm the father's political career, as he and Dukat were political enemies. From Dukat's perspective, he's willing to tear apart a family and possibly destroy a child's life simply to get "one up" on a political rival. Clearly, Dukat is little more than a political opportuntist in this episode.

Necessary Evil - 1.) Odo tells Dukat he's seen dead bodies in the mines on Bajor. Dukat refers to them as "casualties." 2.) Dukat says Odo isn't a Bajoran and that he should be thankful for it. 3.) Dukat threatens to kill Kira, even though she might be innocent.

Season Three:
Civil Defense - He's willing to let everyone on Deep Space Nine die if he cannot successfully blackmail Kira into allowing a Cardassian garrison to be placed on the station, all in the hopes of regaining a foothold on Bajoran terrority. He only helps save the DS9 crew when his own life is in danger.

Season Four:
Indiscretion - He had an affair with a Bajoran woman who was essentially one of his subjects and incapable of saying "no." I have serious doubts that Ziyal's mother actually loved him, no matter what he says about the matter. He then is willing to kill his own daughter in order to protect his career. In the end, he doesn't go through with it, but the fact that he was willing to entertain the idea speaks volumes about him.

Season Five:
Things Past - 1.) He allows both his troops and Quark to use the Bajorans as slave labor. 2.) He allows his troops to herd the Bajorans into a tiny portion of the station like cattle. 3.) He tries to bed another one of his helpless "subjects." 4.) He tries to justify his cruelty towards the Bajorans by saying that he can't be generous with them because they don't submit to his rule. 5.) He has three men executed for a crime they didn't commit before a proper investigation has taken place.

By Inferno's Light -

Dukat: "You might ask, should we fear joining the Dominion? And I answer you, not in the least. We should embrace the opportunity. The Dominion recognizes us for what we are...the true leaders of the Alpha Quadrant. And now that we are joined together, equal partners in all endeavors, the only people with anything to fear will be our enemies. My oldest son's birthday is in five days. To him and to Cardassians everywhere I make the following pledge: by the time his birthday dawns, there will not be a single Klingon alive inside Cardassian territory, or a single Maquis colony left within our borders. Cardassia will be made whole. All that we have lost will be ours again, and anyone who stands in our way will be destroyed. This I vow with my life's blood. For my son, for all our sons."

He then goes on to slaughter the Maquis, decimate the Klingons, and attempts to wipe out a Starfleet/Klingon/Romulan fleet, not to mention the entire Bajoran species, by blowing up the Bajoran sun.

Call to Arms -

Dukat: "I've been waiting for this moment for five years."
Damar: "First we reclaim Terok Nor, and then on to Bajor."
Weyoun: "Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Or must I remind you that the Dominion just signed a non-agression pact with Bajor?"
Dukat: "The Dominion might have. I never did."

Clearly he intends to reoccupy Bajor and get back to the way thing were, which wasn't pleasant. He is only held back by the Dominion and their geo-political goals.

Season Six:
A Time to Stand -

Dukat: "Each day brings reports of new victories. The war continues to go well. The enemy is retreating on almost all fronts. It's only a matter of time before the Federation collapses and Earth becomes another conquered planet under Dominion rule. All in all, it's a good time for Cardassia. And the Dominion."

Sons and Daughters - He tries to force his way into a romantic relationship with Kira, even though its crystal clear that she doesn't return his affections. He then attempts to use his daughter to get closer to Kira. Finally, he flat out lies to Ziyal about the dress he got "for her" when it was really for Kira.

Sacrifice of Angels -

Weyoun: "Holding on to a prize as vast as the Federation isn't going to be easy. It's going to require an enormous number of ships, a massive occupation army... and constant vigilance."
Dukat: "I look forward to it!"

Weyoun: "If you ask me, the key to holding the Federation is Earth. If there's going to be an organized resistance against us, its birthplace will be there."
Dukat: "You could be right."
Weyoun: "Then our first step will be to eradicate its population. It's the only way."
Dukat: "You can't do that."
Weyoun: "Why not?"
Dukat: "Because a true victory is to make your enemy see that they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness."
Weyoun: "Then you kill them?"
Dukat: "Only if necessary."

So, how does all of this show that "Dukat did the best he could to improve the lives of Bajorans as an administrator and to mitigate overly harsh penalties that his superiors wanted to implement"? How does this show him to be anything but a cold, calculating, evil person? Granted, he has a lot of charm, but I just don't see how someone can defend him, especially with what he does in episodes like "Necessary Evil" and "Things Past."

 

[DevilEyes]

What do you guys think would be cool if Kira would have joined Dukat's crew when he stole the Bird of Prey in "Return to Grace"?
Ziyal wanted her to stay... they had a great relationship... and Dukat's request to have Kira stay and join forces with him was rather tempting... no matter what she says... she was thinking about it. I think it would have been great for the war against the Klingon's at the time. Also, their alliance together would have brought hope and peace to Bajor, Cardassia, and with the Federation.
I know you're all going to say Dukat was a horrible person and she hates him... blah blah...But it would have been an interesting storyline nonetheless. Thoughts?

You think you know what we're all going to say? Well, wrong.

I don't even think she really hated him during the period when the episode ("Return to Grace") took place. Which doesn't mean that she exactly liked him much either, and of course she was not going to be his best friend or his lover, because, as she said, she could never forget or forgive what he did during the Occupation; and of course she didn't like his presumptuous behavior and did all to rebuke his advances and keep him at a distance. (I think she did hate him after he back-stabbed her and everyone and made the secret deal with the Dominion, though.)

And even if she did, that's not really the issue. She would have worked with him despite her personal feelings, if it was for a goal that was important enough. She later fought alongside Damar, and she certainly wasn't fond of him, especially since he had killed Ziyal! Both Kira and Garak had to put their personal feelings aside on that one.

But the difference is, this was more of Dukat's personal guerilla war - not even Cardassia was fully behind it, let alone Bajor or the Federation or anyone else; it wasn't the destiny of the Quadrant being directly decided.

What actually took place in the episode was that Kira saw her old enemy, ironically, becoming a guerilla fighter, like she had been, and Dukat was offering Kira an opportunity to take up her old way of life - that of a guerilla fighter/terrorist - arguing that this is what she is the best at, that she is a warrior, a fighter, that her talents were wasted at her job as "bureaucrat" at the Federation-run station. But he had misjudged her: even though violence and terrorism used to be the only life she knew since childhood, Kira was happy to leave that life behind. She liked her new job on the station, she wanted a normal life in peace, without killing. She also saw in Ziyal a girl who had been denied a normal childhood, just like she had been, and she wanted to give her a chance to still experience a normal life on the station.

Kira would, of course, be fighting again a couple of seasons later, but that was in different circumstances, when the war was raging and the Dominion was invading and threatening the entire Quadrant. These are the kind of circumstances when nobody can stay peaceful and when one had to fight. But she wasn't some kind of Che Guevara figure looking for new revolutions to fight - she fought out of necessity, not because she liked that way of life.

DUKAT
I'm disappointed, major.

KIRA
But not surprised.

DUKAT
Tell me, were you even tempted?

Kira thinks about it for a moment.

KIRA
Not really.

DUKAT
And I thought I was so eloquent.


KIRA
(smiles)
You had your moments. But the
fact of the matter is, I've
already been where you're going.
I've already lived the life you're
choosing. Fighting hit and run,
always outgunned, living on
nothing but adrenalin and hate.
It's not much of a life, and it
eats away at you so that every day
a little part of you dies.

DUKAT
(smiles)
Very inspiring, Major. But I have
no choice in this. No more than
you did when you where fighting
against us.

Kira studies Dukat. He's a committed man.

KIRA
No, I don't suppose you do.

A beat as a moment passes between them.

DUKAT
(with regret)
Then all that's left is for you to
wish me luck.

KIRA
That's not quite all. There's
still Ziyal.

DUKAT
What about her?

KIRA
The life you're choosing isn't for
her. She deserves better.

DUKAT
She deserves to be with her
father. You taught me that.
(a beat)
I love her.

KIRA
(simply)
I know you do. That's why you
have to let her go.

DUKAT
(angry)
Go where? She's not welcome on
Cardassia or Bajor. This is the
only place she belongs.

KIRA
That's not true. She can come to
Deep Space Nine with me.

Dukat is completely surprised by Kira's offer.

DUKAT
Are you serious?

KIRA
She's a remarkable young woman.
I'll make sure she's okay.

Dukat thinks it over.

DUKAT
Why? Why do you care so much?

KIRA
Because she reminds me of myself.
And I don't want her to go through
what I did.
(a beat)
And neither do you.

 

[DevilEyes]

Oh no, not the "was Dukat really that bad?" discussion again! We've been through this before. Navaros, I'll just refer you to my previous post from another thread: http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3717442&postcount=52

I can't imagine Kira EVER having a romantic relationship with Dukat. It would be like a Holocaust survivor ending up in a romantic relationship with, a still alive, Adolph Hitler in 1949.

Not exactly. More like, a resistance fighter from one of the colonized countries ending up in a romantic relationship with a former colonial administrator, or, if you prefer the Nazi analogies, one of the most prominent fighters in the French Resistance entering into a relationship with the head of the German occupation army. Still extremely unlikely and outrageous. There's no need to use hyperbolic and incorrect parallels to drive that point home.

Season Four:
Indiscretion - He had an affair with a Bajoran woman who was essentially one of his subjects and incapable of saying "no." I have serious doubts that Ziyal's mother actually loved him, no matter what he says about the matter.

I find it hard to believe that Ziyal, having grown up by her mother, would not be aware if her mother didn't love her father at all. I think that children can sense when parents hate each other or are miserable, and I can't see her adoring her father that way if she thought her mother was his mistress only because she had no other choice.

But everything else you list is true - Dukat was always shown to be a ruthless, cruel, egotistical, calculated, racist despot and murderer and one of the worst products of the Cardassian military and social system.

I do think they should have went with the similar storyline that was floated around and which Alaimo really wanted to do, which was Kira and Dukat having a romantic relationship (eventually they changed the idea to make it Kira's mother, but making it Kira herself would have been way better).

I'll refer you to another previous thread, also started by mystikgeek, where this was debated in detail. I believe that a few of us (PS Garak, JustKate, NerysGhemor, and me) have explained the problems with that idea a bit more eloquently than "Dukat is a horrible person and Kira hates him, blah blah blah".
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=105683&page=2

Let's put aside the issue of whether you find Dukat to be a horrible person or guilty of terible crimes - which you (Navaros and mystikgeek) don't seem to - ask yourself, do you really believe that Kira, with her history, her past, her personality - would find it a remotely acceptable idea to have a relationship with him? Try to put yourself in her shoes. Would it really be convincing, can you see her deciding that, since he was so charming, it just didn't matter that he had enforced occupation of Bajor, with forced labor, sexual slavery, random executions, and other crimes for years, and was responsible for the deaths of millions of Bajorans? You as a viewer may not care much about it, since, as viewers, we can just care about how interesting or charismatic or fun a character is; but imagine if you were a real person with a backstory like Kira's? Keep in mind that this is the man who had been the symbol of Cardassian oppression, of everything she had fought against all her life.

Thinking about the possibilities if the show had gone that road as the writers intended at one point, it could have been done it two different ways - and both present huge problems, as flemm put it in this post:

I will add this: I'm glad the writers avoided the trap of Kira and Dukat becoming romantically involved for a couple of reasons. Basically there were two options here.

On the one hand, a sincere romance and a redemptive arc for Dukat. This would have been unimaginable from Kira's point of view (thank you, Nana Visitor), and it would have been far too easy a resolution to Dukat's dark past and meglomaniacal urges.

On the other hand, a Stockholm Syndrome-style warped dependancy whereby Kira is seduced and manipulated by Dukat. I imagine this was the one the writers were tempted by, and it must have been very tempting indeed. It seems somewhat topical, and psychologically plausible, at least potentially. But it would have made a victim of Kira, and one of the things that is great about Kira is that she is vulnerable and traumatized at the beginning, but not doomed to be a victim eternally.

What we ended up getting with Kira was great: she went through hell during the occupation, and she goes through a lot more over the course of seven seasons, but she emerges as a whole person who is stronger for it. This is what makes her character arc one of the best in Trek, and I'm very glad it wasn't sacrificed on the alter of having her sleep with Dukat for however long.

If the writers had opted for a redemptive storyarc for Dukat, a romance with Kira would not be the best way to do it. It would made the show fall into a trap of an over-used cliche/romantic fantasy "bad man turns good through heroine's love", which works better when it involves teenage girls and high school drop-outs, but would look out of place withdictators/war criminals and resistance fighters who fought against them... NerysGhemor explained best why:

A redemptive arc, in my opinion, could not even happen with a romance--at least not for YEARS in the future.

Look at St. Paul--he was VERY similar. Full of himself and bent on killing anyone he disagreed with. And when he came around...that was a truly devastating experience to go through. He encountered tremendous mistrust and it was only over time that people came to accept him. And I truly believe (personally--this is not any official theological stance) that one of the reasons he never married was because of how much guilt he still felt for his actions before the Road to Damascus.

If Dukat TRULY repented, TRULY felt the weight of all of his sins--believe me. With all that the guy has done, there is NO WAY he would be in any kind of shape for a relationship. Perhaps Kira might feel sorry for him, perhaps find someone who could help him put himself back together (clergy or a counselor), but actually be in a romantic relationship? No.

I suspect that what Behr had in mind (especially knowing his views on Dukat, and that he wanted it to happen in season 6, when any redemptive arc for Dukat had become extremely unlikely) was closer to the second option that flemm mentioned - some kind of warped, dark, angsty relationship based on Dukat's manipulation and Kira's issues and traumas. That could have been interesting - but at the expense of making Kira look much weaker and turning her into a victim. (I am guessing that this was the type of relationship they eventually transferred to Kira's mom, but Kira's mom was portrayed as a having a much weaker personality.) Kira is vulnerable, but her strong will and uncompromising attitude are her most important characteristics.

I guess one could show a momentary weakness or dark period in such a character, but then it would be very tricky how to follow up on that? I've read a couple of fanfics that tried to did something similar to what the writers on the show might have intended - have Kira sleep with Dukat during the Dominion Occupation arc - and managed to make it look pretty convincing, but only because they portrayed it as a result of Kira going through a period of self-loathing, struggling with her demons, and generally being in a very dark place; and because there was no attempt to make it look like a genuine romance or a normal relationship. (I've never read a fanfic that made the latter look convincing - even when they were very well written, I always found myself thinking "No, I'm not really buying this.") But fanfics have an advantage that the show would not have: they didn't have to - and did not - follow up on it. If a storyline like that had been introduced on the show, it would have to have huge psychological consequences to Kira's character - because, for her, sleeping with Dukat would feel like betraying all her principles. How would they have followed it? Most likely, by having one or two episodes where it's dealt with, and then everything back to normal? (Just like O'Brien never seemed to feel any psychological consequences of his experience in Hard Time, or Odo's linking with the Founder and temporary betrayal during the Dominion arc eventually had no lasting effect on any of his relationships with anyone on DS9?) Really not a good idea. (And for the record, I find it easier to believe that Kira would forgive Odo for his betrayal, than that she could forgive herself if she got involved with Dukat.)

 

[TerokNor]

Another question, but I think it fits into this post:
If Kira had not offered to take Ziyal with her to DS9 and Ziyal had stayed with his fathers and the soldiers on bord the Bird of Prey (and survived)... how would she have turned out as a character?
And would the beginning friendship between her and Damar as seen in Return to Grace would had deepend, when she would have become more ruthless and staying loyal with her father or would her ridges on the nose still would have meant more, once Damar started hating Bajorans even more then before, because they did not show respect for Dukat?

TerokNor