Devil Worship in Haiti
- Thread starter The Grim Ghost
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ST-One
Vice Admiral
^ This is what I'm talking about.
It's stupid to say it no matter what. Robertson's brand of Christianity is backwards, bigoted, arrogant, and spiteful, and the proper response for anyone - Christian or not - is to condemn what he said in the harshest language and without equivocation. You instead chose to be vague and wishy-washy about it and then backpedal when called on it.
The fact is, I was expecting precisely that kind of response from you when I first saw the topic, and as usual you didn't disappoint. If it's something you actually do disapprove of then I would suggest defying our expectations a bit and coming right out and saying how wrong Robertson is.
A
Amaris
Guest
Then why do you understand Pat Robertson's viewpoint? He's insane. There is no understanding, Pat Robertson believes these people were punished by God for turning against him and making a deal with Satan. It is not at all reasonable to believe in a god that kills thousands of people for making a pact with the devil. Pat Robertson believes in such a god. It's just like saying "I understand why that serial killer murdered those 12 people for liking Star Trek instead of Star Wars." There's no reason, there's no understanding, there's just insanity, and that's what Pat Robertson is defending.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Um... No. Way to try to pull something out of nowhere.
Then, perhaps, you shouldn't make it sound as if you can't even lift a finger unless it's sanctioned by a long dead rabbi.Yes, yes you did completely misunderstand me. Please, do tell me where in my post I said that or even sounded like I was saying that?
There is more in your post I find objectionable.
But that would lead us off-topic.
I'm just glad to know that you'd help even if it weren't stipulated by your religion.
Well, some elements of morality are transmitted through the culture. That's actually what this is about, isn't it? The concept of helping people who are not immediate neighbors would not necessarily be a widely held moral ideal. Our ancestors have, through our various traditions, imbued us with this moral concept. That way we don't have to convince people to help every time there's a need. We can just point to the cultural norm that our ancestors established and apply social pressure on the slackers.
This post is an attempt to resist the already-established, misguided belief that Haiti's problems were caused by this devil pact. It is an attempt to overcome the force of superstition with reason. We are trying to say that there is no devil, so how could a pact be made, yes.
But what we are really saying is that people should help each other for a nobler reason than simply wanting to be rewarded later with a place in some eternal pleasure mansion in the sky. I wonder what reason that might be?
Is there a completely unselfish reason for helping others? I can't say it is "because you want people to help you when you are in need", because that's tit-for-tat thinking and not unselfish. I have read that the highest good is done without expectation of reward. I rarely see examples of it, though.
This post is an attempt to resist the already-established, misguided belief that Haiti's problems were caused by this devil pact. It is an attempt to overcome the force of superstition with reason. We are trying to say that there is no devil, so how could a pact be made, yes.
But what we are really saying is that people should help each other for a nobler reason than simply wanting to be rewarded later with a place in some eternal pleasure mansion in the sky. I wonder what reason that might be?
Is there a completely unselfish reason for helping others? I can't say it is "because you want people to help you when you are in need", because that's tit-for-tat thinking and not unselfish. I have read that the highest good is done without expectation of reward. I rarely see examples of it, though.
See that's the thing. If they are actually following all of Jesus' teachings, then they would always help everyone because that was the point of nearly all of his teaching. They weren't just some solid list of literal things you had to do. They were parables, they were stories to get his point across. If someone is actually following those teachings then they would be a good person and would always to the best of their ability do the right thing and help people.
There is more in your post I find objectionable.
But that would lead us off-topic.
I'm just glad to know that you'd help even if it weren't stipulated by your religion.
As for the other parts of my post you find objectionable, I assume you mean what I said about homosexuals. Well, that was my friend's example, I was using it to explain his position on the whole "true christian" thing, I couldn't think of a better example. I do support gays though, but yeas that would throw us off topic, but if you would like to PM me, we could talk about it there, I mean I don't usually shy away from hearing opposing sides to anything, it never hurts to know and contemplate other opinions.
I'm not ST-One, but what I am trying to say is that I believe an integral part of our very purpose in existence is to serve others when we are needed. That goes far beyond merely being taught...I believe this is part of who we are.
Our failures in compassion have been the cause of much pain in this world. I say that both for Christians and for the human race in general. One of the things, for example, that will always trouble me very deeply about the HIV crisis is the slow response, because in the mind of some (and I think many people fell for this, not just some Christians), the "wrong" people were affected, so they failed to look any further. And I am troubled because I wonder, how many people's lives could've been saved if we'd been more aggressive, more compassionate, in helping those who were suffering? Might we have a cure, or better quality of life for those infected with HIV?
We will never know.
And I hate comments like Robertson's because people use such "excuses" to switch off their compassion and not HELP those who are hurting, as we are supposed to do.
ST-One, You asked some people if they would help if it weren't stipulated by their religion.
I want to know, if you would help, why?
And I ask this as one who has read the core docs of most religions. The two most ancient sources I can find for compassionate action are the 42 Principles of Ma'at (ten of which were borrowed to create the ten commandments), and the Hindu idea of ahimsa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa
I am pointing this out because I have not satisfactorily proven to myself the existence of morality that extends beyond social pressure. Since you asked the question, I thought you might have some thoughts to share.
Thanks.
I want to know, if you would help, why?
And I ask this as one who has read the core docs of most religions. The two most ancient sources I can find for compassionate action are the 42 Principles of Ma'at (ten of which were borrowed to create the ten commandments), and the Hindu idea of ahimsa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa
I am pointing this out because I have not satisfactorily proven to myself the existence of morality that extends beyond social pressure. Since you asked the question, I thought you might have some thoughts to share.
Thanks.
Wow. Our posts crossed paths, but oddly similar and different at the same time.
The best theory I have ever come up with is that we are actually not separate beings, but we are possibly all one, and that the pain of others is our own pain, and somehow, through compassion, we bridge the divide. Sex, too, for that matter, and conversation...
Why does it not surprise me that Pat Robertson has a direct line to the Dark Lord himself? How else would he have insider information like this?
While I do not believe the same as you do (I do think we are created separate individuals), I definitely think that the way we treat each other is critical to our spiritual well-being, in addition to our relationship with God.
I don't want to say anything bad about the man, but he is not representative of Christianity.
I don't actually believe anything, but I do feel it is right to help. So why do I feel that, if I'm an atheist? I don't really know. What is the source of my sympathy?
I'd like another atheist to opinionate, too, if possible.
And for Pat Robertson, all I can say is, he's normal.
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Amaris
Guest
I value life. There really is no other explanation. I love my family, I want to protect my family from harm, whatever it may be. I realize that other people love their families, and want to protect their families from harm, whatever it may be. So by working together, we help one another and help ourselves.
I can honestly say he is not normal. While he does have a large following, those who practice the core of Christianity would disagree vehemently with Pat Robertson, because Robertson is not representative of the teachings of Jesus, and also, he's insane.
I think it is sadly normal to find some superstitious reason NOT to help. So we disagree on that point. I do not think it is insane at all.
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Amaris
Guest
There are many Christian charities who will come to the aid of the needy in Haiti. There are likely many other religious charities who will do the same. Those who are abnormal and religious are the ones who follow the likes of Pat Robertson and his associates.
I dunno, man. I think most of us, even those who want to help, will end up doing nothing and saying, let my taxes pay for the government to do it. or.... maybe... my church has a charity for that.
And George Washington was in league with Cthulhu . . . .
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Amaris
Guest
What's wrong with donating to a church charity? Or knowing that your tax money is going to the U.S. government whose powerful military is even now engaging in aid to victims of this disaster? Every penny counts. The U.S. military and large private charities are well trained in disaster relief. Small churches band together and send out relief and personnel as well. Whether religious or not, most people get together to help others in need.
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