If he had witnessed a historic character face and resolve a serious dilemma, it would have made sense, but he only watched a man kill himself for no reason. How is that even remotely connected to Riker's issues?
These Are The Voyages - Your Opinion, Please
- Thread starter thew40
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If he had witnessed a historic character face and resolve a serious dilemma, it would have made sense, but he only watched a man kill himself for no reason. How is that even remotely connected to Riker's issues?
? Could you please cite some examples? I haven't seen TNG in a while.
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number6
Vice Admiral
i haven't seen it in a while either. I do recall Riker mentioning going to the holodeck in several random episodes and talking about going to the holodeck to let off steam when he was consoling Barclay in that episode about his Holodiction and I recall that episode where Geordi uses the holodeck to solve a problem with the engines, Data uses the holodeck to explore his humanity, and Troi and Riker use the holodeck to solve a crime where someone committed suicide by jumping into a warp nacelle..
That's skirting the issue: It is not out of character for Riker , or frankly any TNG character, to work out some issue on the holodeck. There is precident and it is totally plausible. Riker using the holodeck to work out his moral dilemma over the Pegasus isn't implausible. He learns about trust and loyalty by interacting the ENT crew and in fact realizes his prediciament by talking to T'Pol.
I don't see a problem with this.
This is not an endorsement of TATV. I do think that it was a pretty mediocre episode, but I don't think Riker's character was violated. The whole episode felt more like a sitcom than a serious drama and that's what bothered me. Trip's death, while unnecessary, underscored a couple of things: The loyalty of Archer's crew and closest friends, and Archer's commitment to Starfleet and exploration--Was it all worth the risks??
These are questions that this episode (albeit clumsily) illustrates and this proves to be helpful in Riker's prediciament over telling Picard the truth.
This is where the episode works and if it weren't the last episode ever, I don't think people would be as angry about it.
Since the episode takes place 10+ years after the NX-01 was launched, there is nothing to prevent other ENT stories from taking place with Trip alive and well.
I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. Yes, I do know that members of the TNG crew would try to work out various problems on the holodeck (when it wasn't trying to kill them
), such as engineering challenges or some mystery. But I don't recall any episode where an officer used the holodeck to try to resolve a personal quandary.Riker just struck me as someone who would work it out in the real world, which is exactly what he did in "The Pegasus." When push came to shove, he revealed Pressman's dirty little secret and told Picard how they could save the ship.
number6
Vice Admiral
I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. Yes, I do know that members of the TNG crew would try to work out various problems on the holodeck (when it wasn't trying to kill them
Riker just struck me as someone who would work it out in the real world, which is exactly what he did in "The Pegasus." When push came to shove, he revealed Pressman's dirty little secret and told Picard how they could save the ship.
He seems like a grounded individual, to be sure, but his rationale for using the holodeck in TATV made sense to me.
As far as personal quantries go: The one episode that immediately comes to mind is that one where Data experiences feelings when he kills a Borg with his bare hands and uses the holodeck to try to recreate that feeling. Didn't Riker use the holodeck to work through his psychological trauma after the events of Frame of Mind..wasn't that at least a line of dialog??
Gee, I don't recall whether he did in Frame of Mind. I haven't seen it since first run of TNG (obviously not one of my favorites).I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. Yes, I do know that members of the TNG crew would try to work out various problems on the holodeck (when it wasn't trying to kill them
Riker just struck me as someone who would work it out in the real world, which is exactly what he did in "The Pegasus." When push came to shove, he revealed Pressman's dirty little secret and told Picard how they could save the ship.
He seems like a grounded individual, to be sure, but his rationale for using the holodeck in TATV made sense to me.
As far as personal quantries go: The one episode that immediately comes to mind is that one where Data experiences feelings when he kills a Borg with his bare hands and uses the holodeck to try to recreate that feeling. Didn't Riker use the holodeck to work through his psychological trauma after the events of Frame of Mind..wasn't that at least a line of dialog??
Actually, no. BTW, I love that episode, total mindf#ck.
number6
Vice Admiral
Actually, no. BTW, I love that episode, total mindf#ck.
One of the best Riker episodes.. Written by Brannon Braga.
Braga wrote some good stuff, back in the days when there were other people (then just Berman) holding his leash... Shuttlepod One was definitely his swan song, and a hell of a swan song it was.Actually, no. BTW, I love that episode, total mindf#ck.
One of the best Riker episodes.. Written by Brannon Braga.
number6
Vice Admiral
I think Braga wrote some great stuff..on his own and with Moore.
TATV was not his proudest moment, but Trek has always had such moments in each of its incarnations.
Shades of Grey
Masks
The Way to Eden
Sub Rosa
Most of Voyager
The Alternative Factor
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: Nemesis
Pen Pals
Let He Who Is Without Sin...
Take Me Out to the Holosuite
Precious Cargo
Et Cetera..
TATV was not his proudest moment, but Trek has always had such moments in each of its incarnations.
Shades of Grey
Masks
The Way to Eden
Sub Rosa
Most of Voyager
The Alternative Factor
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Star Trek: Nemesis
Pen Pals
Let He Who Is Without Sin...
Take Me Out to the Holosuite
Precious Cargo
Et Cetera..
That's what I always say.
As dumb as it was, I kinda liked it. It prophecized the extinction of a certain obscure sport...
I'd still wish they played parrises squares though...
I always liked "Pen Pals(TNG)." Sure it was sugary-sweet, goopey and smarmy in a lot of ways but I think it had a lot of heart and showed Data's burgeoning humanity as well as a really classic example of when to honor the Prime Directive and when not to. And Picard and Data took the classic TOS-Kirk route in that episode to save Sarjenka.
And Trip himself says in a first season episode that yes, it was worth the risk.
As I recall, it was Troi who suggested to Riker he go to the holodeck and view/participate in the NX-01 program. Wasn't his idea at all.
As for Riker's use of the holodeck... what I recall most was his going there after an encounter with/narrow escape from Kamala in "The Perfect Mate." Pretty sure we know what that was for.
I'd say one of the best TNG episodes. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say Braga may even be the best TNG writer. Certainly him and Moore together were quite a force. I'd love them to write another Trek film.Actually, no. BTW, I love that episode, total mindf#ck.
One of the best Riker episodes.. Written by Brannon Braga.
I agree. Moore & Braga were a great team.
Yeah, Braga was at the apex of his writing prowess when he was teamed with Ron Moore in the earlier years. Most of his best scripts emerged from that period IMHO.
That's what I always say.
As dumb as it was, I kinda liked it. It prophecized the extinction of a certain obscure sport...
TMOTTH was a pretty dumb and self-indulgent episode on the part of the writers. Not all Trek fans are in the USA, Ira Behr!
That's what I always say.
As dumb as it was, I kinda liked it. It prophecized the extinction of a certain obscure sport...
TMOTTH was a pretty dumb and self-indulgent episode on the part of the writers. Not all Trek fans are in the USA, Ira Behr!
No, but Sisko is, and was quite into Baseball, this had come up many times throughout the series before this episode. I think that the other characters portrayal, confusion and frustration over the game was to represent the fanbase that would (as you may have) said "What the fuck is baseball?" While it certainly wouldn't have been my choice to do per se, I do view it as a fun episode, a way to get the crew together and into the holosuit without it breaking in some fashion or the crew having a holomystery to solve.
That said, Brannon Braga's problem was, once he came to be in charge, there was no one to tell him when the story sucked (such as threshold) which is, IMO, when things took a downhill turn (although VOY had it's problems to being with).
I watched this again last night. I'd forgotten just how poor this episode was.
Literally the could have cut everything after the first five minutes and before the last five minutes and just showed that ten minutes of everyone saying how much they're looking forward to Archer making a speech followed by Archer preparing to make a speech and it would have been less disappointing.
The whole plot about Shran's child was little more than an overly contrived plot device that would lead to the pointless death of a major character. And what a pointless death it is. Not since Tasha Yar has a major character died in such a senseless and pointless manner and remember Yar's death was so senseless that the b-story of "Yesterday's Enterprise" focused on just how senseless it was.
Now, I can understand why Berman and Braga wanted to link the episode with The Next Generation, what with it being the end of the franchise in its current form. However, the way they did it doesn't really sit well with me. Also, in an attempt to bring together the entire show The Enterprise crew are reduced to the role of disposable holodeck characters which is a huge disservice to them and a bit of an insult to the actors who played them.
The most annoying thing about "These Are The Voyages" is that the previous episodes "Demons"/"Terra Prime" could quite easily have served as an incredibly fitting conclusion to Enterprise that emphasised why humanity needs to reach out to the stars with open arms, in the spirit of co-operation.
So, yeah. Overall a seriously flawed episode and an awful way to end the show. Personally when I next watch Enterprises' final season I think I'll finish at "Terra Prime" and leave on a high note.
Literally the could have cut everything after the first five minutes and before the last five minutes and just showed that ten minutes of everyone saying how much they're looking forward to Archer making a speech followed by Archer preparing to make a speech and it would have been less disappointing.
The whole plot about Shran's child was little more than an overly contrived plot device that would lead to the pointless death of a major character. And what a pointless death it is. Not since Tasha Yar has a major character died in such a senseless and pointless manner and remember Yar's death was so senseless that the b-story of "Yesterday's Enterprise" focused on just how senseless it was.
Now, I can understand why Berman and Braga wanted to link the episode with The Next Generation, what with it being the end of the franchise in its current form. However, the way they did it doesn't really sit well with me. Also, in an attempt to bring together the entire show The Enterprise crew are reduced to the role of disposable holodeck characters which is a huge disservice to them and a bit of an insult to the actors who played them.
The most annoying thing about "These Are The Voyages" is that the previous episodes "Demons"/"Terra Prime" could quite easily have served as an incredibly fitting conclusion to Enterprise that emphasised why humanity needs to reach out to the stars with open arms, in the spirit of co-operation.
So, yeah. Overall a seriously flawed episode and an awful way to end the show. Personally when I next watch Enterprises' final season I think I'll finish at "Terra Prime" and leave on a high note.
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Yeah, is This Ain't The Valentine wasn't exactly helped by airing on the heels of the much superior and cathartic "Terra Prime."
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