These Are The Voyages - Your Opinion, Please

[commodore64]

People in mourning generally cry -- men and women alike. I've attended funerals where people had difficulty getting through eulogies and remembrances. Archer had been friends with this man for 20 years. All we got were cliches and anger. How about sadness? For God's sake, Trip gave his life for Archer and you don't even get the sense that Archer appreciated the sacrifice. Once the scene with T'Pol passes there is no mention of Tucker by anyone in the crew.

I thought Archer got emotional, and I didn't see everything he said as cliche ..... Maybe because Archer's my favorite character, I thought he looked beaten and depressed. I can see that being a good reaction to one of your best friends and someone you feel is in your charge (and giving their life for yours) passing away. I mean, Archer -- I thought -- went ahead with the big speech *because* of Trip. And I also thought T'Pol got emotional as well. She went into his room and smelled his clothes. I thought, actually, that was a nice touch. I guess I like less as more. For example, I don't care for Archer when he gets super mad or Trip crying in Forgotten. Understated usually works for me. Some of my favorite moments in Enterprise are moment where you feel like things could get out of control, but don't -- Archer's misty eyes watching Trip in Observer Effect, Archer's nearly breaking voice as he tells T'Pol she's in command in the same episode, Archer's restrained anger in Damage after T'Pol throws her PADD down, etc. To me, each of those moments communicate exactly what the character is feeling without it being stated, "T'Pol is making me mad and confusing me! I'm about to do something that's tricky and possibly harrowing. The last thing I need is for T'Pol to throw a fit!" Instead, his narrowed eyes and slight growl as he tells her maybe she should find the time to meditate works so much better.

But, I think I understand your point of view. In Wrath of Khan, I was weeping like a little girl. Sure, I was one at the time. (I think I was 12 when I saw it in the theaters.) I think you wanted to feel that emotional reaction and that your favorite character was honored. You feel like he wasn't.

 

[JiNX-01]

But, I think I understand your point of view. In Wrath of Khan, I was weeping like a little girl. Sure, I was one at the time. (I think I was 12 when I saw it in the theaters.) I think you wanted to feel that emotional reaction and that your favorite character was honored. You feel like he wasn't.

Actually what I really wanted was a scene -- just one touching scene -- that would move me to tears in a good way (as opposed to the way I did end up in tears -- of ANGER -- over this "valentine." )

 

[Mach5]

People in mourning generally cry -- men and women alike. I've attended funerals where people had difficulty getting through eulogies and remembrances. Archer had been friends with this man for 20 years. All we got were cliches and anger. How about sadness? For God's sake, Trip gave his life for Archer and you don't even get the sense that Archer appreciated the sacrifice. Once the scene with T'Pol passes there is no mention of Tucker by anyone in the crew.

Well put. If you truly care for someone, and suddenly that someone is taken away from you, you don't just accept it over night. A mix of complete agony, dismay, anger, depression, denial and all kinds of other feelings runs through you before the horrific realization kicks in - you are never going to see that person again in you life. NEVER!

Now imagine if someone died saving you from a situation that might not have even been a "life or death" one... Wouldn't you feel guilty? Hell, I'd be scarred for the rest of my life.

TATV trivialized death and insulted every fan who ever lost someone close to him/her. Well, perhaps not EVERY fan, but it did insult me.

 

[lceb]

Actually what I really wanted was a scene -- just one touching scene -- that would move me to tears in a good way (as opposed to the way I did end up in tears -- of ANGER -- over this "valentine." )

That's exactly how I feel about TATV. It was the last episode of the series, the epilogue, the last bite that leaves the -good or bad - taste. For me that taste was sour.

 

[cooleddie74]

Actually what I really wanted was a scene -- just one touching scene -- that would move me to tears in a good way (as opposed to the way I did end up in tears -- of ANGER -- over this "valentine." )

That's exactly how I feel about TATV. It was the last episode of the series, the epilogue, the last bite that leaves the -good or bad - taste. For me that taste was sour.

If that was a "Valentine" I'd hate to see the Beebs' idea of an ARBOR DAY LECTURE.

 

[Reanok]

Actually what I really wanted was a scene -- just one touching scene -- that would move me to tears in a good way (as opposed to the way I did end up in tears -- of ANGER -- over this "valentine." )

That's exactly how I feel about TATV. It was the last episode of the series, the epilogue, the last bite that leaves the -good or bad - taste. For me that taste was sour.

If that was a "Valentine" I'd hate to see the Beebs' idea of an ARBOR DAY LECTURE.

Ditto .This is exactly how I feel about Tatv.

 

[number6]

If anything it was a Valentine to fans of TNG and to Frakes and Sirtis' bank accounts.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

If anything it was a Valentine to fans of TNG and to Frakes and Sirtis' bank accounts.

TATV wasn't a Valentine...it was a Halloween trick...!

 

[Mach5]

If anything it was a Valentine to fans of TNG

Who made you a spokesman for TNG's fanbase?

I'm a fan of TNG, have been all my life, it's still my favorite TV show ever, and everyone knows how I feel about the disgrace that is TATV.

 

[JiNX-01]

If anything it was a Valentine to fans of TNG

Who made you a spokesman for TNG's fanbase?

I'm a fan of TNG, have been all my life, it's still my favorite TV show ever, and everyone knows how I feel about the disgrace that is TATV.

Absolutely. I'm not big fan of TNG, and even I was appalled at what they did to Riker. Seven years into service under Picard and he needs a holographic parable to learn that there are times when it's OK to disobey orders?

Good grief.

 

[number6]

If anything it was a Valentine to fans of TNG

Who made you a spokesman for TNG's fanbase?

I'm a fan of TNG, have been all my life, it's still my favorite TV show ever, and everyone knows how I feel about the disgrace that is TATV.

Absolutely. I'm not big fan of TNG, and even I was appalled at what they did to Riker. Seven years into service under Picard and he needs a holographic parable to learn that there are times when it's OK to disobey orders?

Good grief.

Well whatever. You can attack me for defending what I believe to be a mediocre episode or you can look at what the intent of the episode was. They are not mutually exclusive.

I didn't care much for TNG and thought bringing in Riker and Troi was unneccesary. Having seen The Pegasus and enjoying Riker's dilemma about betraying his former commander, I can appreciate the premise of TATV.
As a fan of ENT, I can appreciate the "historical perspective."

As a LAST episode of televised Star Trek, you bet I am let down after such a satifying season finale two-parter. As a Coda to the series.. I am not so sanguine.

Take it or leave it. I'm not going to suffer the slings and arrows of having a more even keeled opinion of a show I enjoyed.

 

[Mach5]

Well whatever. You can attack me for defending what I believe to be a mediocre episode or you can look at what the intent of the episode was.

Ever heard the proverb The road to hell is paved with good intentions?

I didn't care much for TNG and thought bringing in Riker and Troi was unneccesary. Having seen The Pegasus and enjoying Riker's dilemma about betraying his former commander, I can appreciate the premise of TATV.

I cared a lot about TNG, that's exactly why I find the premise ridiculous and offensive.

Take it or leave it.

The latter.

 

[number6]

Well whatever. You can attack me for defending what I believe to be a mediocre episode or you can look at what the intent of the episode was.

Ever heard the proverb The road to hell is paved with good intentions?

I didn't care much for TNG and thought bringing in Riker and Troi was unneccesary. Having seen The Pegasus and enjoying Riker's dilemma about betraying his former commander, I can appreciate the premise of TATV.

I cared a lot about TNG, that's exactly why I find the premise ridiculous and offensive.

Take it or leave it.

The latter.

You could be less nasty about it.

 

[Mach5]

You could be less nasty about it.

I didn't resort to argumentum ad hominem here, my beef is with that episode, not with you, and I apologize if I somehow ofended you.

As for the earlier "who made you..." stuff, it felt like you were saying things in the name of the group I proudly belong to, things I strongly disagree with. Felt wrong, still does.

 

[number6]

There is a big difference between "I can appreciate the intent" and simply dismissing it as a "big disgrace." I never once said I loved the episode. In the very quote you sniped at me I called it "mediocre."

This is why I rarely post here.

The anger of people who call themselves fans frequently drowns out any attempt at a pragmatic discussion of the show.

Yes, I am painting that statement with a broad brush, but it is often the case here.

 

[Mach5]

The anger of people who call themselves fans

Excuse you?

 

[JiNX-01]

Who made you a spokesman for TNG's fanbase?

I'm a fan of TNG, have been all my life, it's still my favorite TV show ever, and everyone knows how I feel about the disgrace that is TATV.

Absolutely. I'm not big fan of TNG, and even I was appalled at what they did to Riker. Seven years into service under Picard and he needs a holographic parable to learn that there are times when it's OK to disobey orders?

Good grief.

Well whatever. You can attack me for defending what I believe to be a mediocre episode or you can look at what the intent of the episode was. They are not mutually exclusive.

I didn't care much for TNG and thought bringing in Riker and Troi was unneccesary. Having seen The Pegasus and enjoying Riker's dilemma about betraying his former commander, I can appreciate the premise of TATV.
As a fan of ENT, I can appreciate the "historical perspective."

As a LAST episode of televised Star Trek, you bet I am let down after such a satifying season finale two-parter. As a Coda to the series.. I am not so sanguine.

Take it or leave it. I'm not going to suffer the slings and arrows of having a more even keeled opinion of a show I enjoyed.

I wasn't attacking you. I just agreed that Bermaga did Riker's character no favor in This Ain't The Valentine.

 

[number6]

I don't think they did anything to damage his character. He was known to go to the holodeck to work out his issues.

 

[Mach5]

I don't think they did anything to damage his character. He was known to go to the holodeck to work out his issues.

He went there to screw Minuet, not resolve life-changing dilemmas...

 

[number6]

Exactly why I don't think going there to work through a moral dilemma damages his character.