Dukat going to the top?

[Nerys Ghemor]

While someone should've called Kim on his remarks, I think that had he confined his remarks to Moset and those who followed in his cruel experiments, he would absolutely be justified. Moset deserved his infamy, just as Mengele does.

And in the case of this hologram, while I am not normally one to defend VOY, given that we HAD seen sentient holograms emerge on VOY (and we also saw Vic on DS9), I can understand why there was fear that one programmed with the mind and personality could've caused problems. There is also a VERY serious ethical concern, to my mind, about using information gleaned by torture and cruelty of the highest order, especially put in the form of the torturer himself--even if you DON'T have the risk of emerging sentience.

I do also think that VOY tried to remedy the problem, from what I've read, with the other hologram episode "Flesh and Blood." Remember, it was Kejal the "Cardassian" who turned out to be the good one, and Iden the "Bajoran" who was the evil one. And the ones that got an attitude that time really had a hard lesson about judging by appearances.

Let me tell you something--being a Cardassian fan should NOT mean buying into the delusions. I am one of the biggest fans you'll find around here, and I do like to RP one. I think the Cardassian race had HUGE potential, as exemplified in individuals like Tekeny Ghemor, Joret Dal, Natima Lang, and the man that Damar eventually became. But as long as that potential was held captive to the sickness that ran through their society, that condoned the hate and cruelty of people like Dukat, Madred, Tain, and Moset, then they could never really become who they should have been. I will never, EVER excuse what those people did.

 

[DevilEyes]

While someone should've called Kim on his remarks, I think that had he confined his remarks to Moset and those who followed in his cruel experiments, he would absolutely be justified. Moset deserved his infamy, just as Mengele does.

Kim had no idea about Moset's crimes when he said that, and "They are not the nicest species in the galaxy" sounds pretty clear-cut to me.

And in the case of this hologram, while I am not normally one to defend VOY, given that we HAD seen sentient holograms emerge on VOY (and we also saw Vic on DS9), I can understand why there was fear that one programmed with the mind and personality could've caused problems.

The Moset hologram was programmed by The Doctor himself, based on the data about Moset in the Starfleet database, which didn't contain any information about Moset's dreadful experiments, or anything else that The Doctor might have find ethically problematic. Obviously, he liked what he saw in the database enough to pick that info as the basis for his new holographic partner. Aside from any concerns about hologram sentience, the idea that the Moset hologram was ever likely to have turned out exactly the same as the real Moset was, or that he was in any way responsible for anything that the real Moset had done, is completely ludicrous. Even EMH is different from Lewis Zimmerman, and he was created by Zimmerman himself (I find Zimmerman very annoying in DS9 Doctor Bashir, I Presume, while I find EMH likable.) The Moset hologram wasn't even based on the real Moset, but on the vague and sanitized image of him one could get out of the Starfleet database. It's just one of the many illogical things about the episode. Another one is that it never occurs to The Doctor to simply insert the command "Computer, change hologram appearance to Human", which would have simply solved his problem with B'Elanna, since her entire issue was that the hologram looked Cardassian, not who it was based on (since she had no idea at the time about Moset and who he was, anyway).

There is also a VERY serious ethical concern, to my mind, about using information gleaned by torture and cruelty of the highest order, especially put in the form of the torturer himself--even if you DON'T have the risk of emerging sentience.

They could have used the information any way they wanted it, so that didn't have to be an issue.

The ethical concern presented is a good issue to explore, but the episode presents it in completely one-sided way. There's nobody to present a possible counterargument, like, say, that all you can do is try to stop such things from happening in the future, but destroying the results of the experiments won't help the victims, and maybe they would have even preferred to have their suffering help someone in the future. One person could have argued that, while another argued that using the results justifies the way they were obtained and opens the door to such abuses in the future - and there, you have an ethical debate. If I can think of counterarguments, surely VOY writers could, too.

More annoyingly, the insistence by everyone that the results mustn't be used - which seems to be the answer that the episode is beating us over the head with - is incredibly hypocritical, since the crew of Voyager is constantly using Borg technology. Not to mention the fact that the history of real life human medicine is full of examples of medical breakthroughs having been done as a result of experimentation not just on animals, but on human subjects as well. The episode sort of attempts to call EMH and the Voyager crew on that hypocrisy - if putting words into the mouth of the Moset hologram even qualifies as that - by mentioning the fact that human doctors have conducted experiments on animals for centuries, and that these results are still used... a conveniently lame argument compared to a stronger one that could have been made if VOY writers had been more willing to mention the experiments on human subjects in Earth's past.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh, don't get me started on VOY and the Borg, nor on Janeway's rather...er...flexible ethics. I can take single VOY episodes and feel like I understand what they're getting at, but when you put the whole series together it's just a hodgepodge of contradictions.

I also don't understand how there could've been no data on the nature of Moset's experiments in the Starfleet database--unless the EMH was deliberately ignoring it. Something like that is blatant...even the very nature of some of the information Moset had should've been a red flag as to his activities, even if we do assume that Starfleet somehow sanitized Moset's bio. There are some tolerance limits and other forms of information that either you have to have been in the right place at the right time with the right equipment to observe a lot of "natural" deaths, or you have to have been systematically experimenting. And surely the sample size involved and specificity of the information to the Bajoran people should've been a clue!

So personally, I can understand where the heavy-handedness in the episode is coming--here we have a highly analytical sentience like the EMH that totally bypassed all of these red flags that should've been in the data itself, EVEN IF not in the bio.

We should therefore have been wondering if the EMH's ethical subroutines were malfunctioning, and if so, what HE would become... (Which of course I believe was seen in "Equinox," but still. Very questionable.)

 

[Kai Winn]

[
You would be an excellent war propagandist.

yep. spend a couple of years in an american political forum which was dominated by neocons and jews, learned a thing or two about perverting facts.
however, consider that the federation ceded worlds to the cardassians, and the cardassians ceded worlds to the federation in that treaty that led to the formation of the maquis. i am not aware that the relocated cardassian settlers established a terrorist group of their own, and declared war on the ufp.
the bajorans are a religious people, and like all of them always at risk to establish god's kingdom on earth in the care of dedicated holy men. which invariably turns into hell on earth. wasn' there an episode of ds9 were it almost happened, and they reestablished their cast society of old? and wasn't it the cardassians who put an end to this mischief on bajor before?

 

[Anwar]

The Cardassians didn't end the caste system themselves, the Bajorans abolished it so that all of them could become soldiers to fight back.

 

[apenpaap]

The Bajorans are a religious people, and like all of them always at risk to establish god's kingdom on Earth in the care of dedicated holy men. Which invariably turns into hell on Earth. Wasn't there an episode of DS9 were it almost happened, and they reestablished their caste society of old? And wasn't it the Cardassians who put an end to this mischief on Bajor before?

OK, there is that aspect of their society. But generally the Bajoran religion seems like a pacifist and enlightened religion.
Besides, even if the Bajorans were the most horrible people in the universe, do you honestly believe that means they should be occupied and enslaved?

 

[Tallis Rhul]

[
You would be an excellent war propagandist.

i am not aware that the relocated cardassian settlers established a terrorist group of their own, and declared war on the ufp.

So you've not heard of "The True Way" then, who were basically the Cardassian equivalent of the Maquis, and were mentioned in a good number of DS9 episodes?

As for me watching more Voyager, I'm doing just that. I've seen a large proportion of it before and I'm rewatching it now right the way through. I love the show almost as much as DS9, and I don't indulge in the comparisons that DS9ers are stereotypically supposed to make between the shows - they are different animals and can't really be compared.

I also don't have any form of prejudice towards the Cardassians. I see them for what they are, which is in essence the same as any other race. They have their villains, heroes and normal people the same as anyone else. Their way of life is different from that of the Bajorans and the Federation, and in my opinion some of their actions are questionable leading right up to morally wrong, case in point interrogation through torture (no-one wants to see Picard's package) and the hostile occupation of a world that wasn't theirs, no matter how they sugared that pill.

There were Cardassians opposed to the Occupation as well though, and it's important not to forget that. I'm not going to make a call on their race as a whole, but I can say that as a whole Bajorans aren't thugs. Because they're not. There is no prime universe evidence that would support that on a large scale whatsoever. And quite apart from the alternate-universe examples you're giving us, in which the Bajorans may very well be thugs, the point of them has always been to show up a marked difference to the prime reality, so if anything those examples point more towards the Bajorans being peaceful in our universe.

And by the way, interestingly enough you've not mentioned Kai Winn once yet - she wasn't physically violent, but she did tend to bully people to get her own way... still doesn't mean the whole race are like that though!

 

[Kai Winn]

i'm rewatching ds9 at the moment, trough to hippocratic oth. 'the true way' wasn't mentioned so far, was it? the history of the cardassian occupation isn't really known. could have been peaceful in the beginning, they might even have been invited to run things, and the situation escalated with the emergence of those freedom fighters. which are usually a couple of ceos, and a great majority of followers who believe to fight for a just cause. i suspect that for the leading revolutionaries, not the cause itself is dear to their hearts, but to replace the occupiers, and to achieve a position of power and wealth for themselves. if the insurgency costs the lives of a few million bajorans, so be it.
empire building is sometimes a messy affair, see iraq, or the american natives long ago. a couple of centuries later, they seem to be happy about the influx of european culture and technology, and to be american citizens. well, like they had lots of choices.
what did the ufp do about the occupation of bajor? nothing as far as i know. there's the prime directive, but that's something for the captains to be concerned about, not the diplomats. the least they can do is to notify the cardassians that the ufp feels it sucks what they do to fellow hominids, and that they are displeased by a war so close to ufp territory.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

No no, the Cardassians arrived under the auspices of friendship, and then started strip mining the planet for its resources, and forcibly using Bajorans as slaves and/or farming them into refugee camps. The resistance arose as a result of that. Believe me, it is covered.

As for the UFP, the impression is that they didn't really know about it until late-on, when Picard came across the Bajoran refugees in an off-world camp. From that point on they started doing something about it, as it wasn't long before Cardassia withdrew from Bajor.

 

[Sci]

You would be an excellent war propagandist.

yep. spend a couple of years in an american political forum which was dominated by neocons and jews, learned a thing or two about perverting facts.

That is an incredibly anti-Semitic statement for which you should be ashamed.

 

[DevilEyes]

As for the UFP, the impression is that they didn't really know about it until late-on, when Picard came across the Bajoran refugees in an off-world camp. From that point on they started doing something about it, as it wasn't long before Cardassia withdrew from Bajor.

Eh, I really doubt that they had no idea. Come on. You really think that Federation intelligence is that lame that they had no idea even about things that are hard to keep secret even from ordinary people who just try to be informed? That they had never come across or heard about Bajorans refugees before? We're not talking about Obsidian Order secret machinations, we're talking about planet-scale occupation and slavery. That would be as naive as claiming that USA has no idea about human rights violations in China or Saudi Arabia.

Maybe Picard didn't know, but there's no way in hell that Starfleet or Federation officials didn't know. They just didn't want to get involved.

And what did UFP do? From what I understand, they just agreed to Bajor's invitation to move in and help Bajorans secure their position and potentially defend themselves, after the Cardassians had withdrawn. Cardassians withdrew because of the actions of the Bajoran Resistance combined with the depleted resources that didn't justify staying there anymore at that cost. UFP had nothing or very little to do with it.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

OK, that's a good point, I don't think posting at 7:43am agrees with me! There would have been Bajorans at the Academy at that time as well, thinking about it, as Ensign Sito would have needed to be there seeing as it takes 4 years...

Maybe they couldn't do much about it because their hands were tied? I'm pretty sure the Cardassians would have taken it as an act of war if they'd tried to liberate the Bajorans forcibly. And yeah, I'll agree that on the face of things when the Cardassians moved out they just went in and sat there... until they discovered the wormhole.

I'll need to re-watch Emissary because I'm not 100% on this: did Starfleet issue the order to Sisko to get Bajor to join the Federation before or after he found the wormhole?

 

[apenpaap]

I'll need to re-watch Emissary because I'm not 100% on this: did Starfleet issue the order to Sisko to get Bajor to join the Federation before or after he found the wormhole?

I think it was his mission from the very start.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

[
You would be an excellent war propagandist.

yep. spend a couple of years in an american political forum which was dominated by neocons and jews, learned a thing or two about perverting facts.

Warning for trolling.

If you want to continue with this racist garbage, take it off this board.

Cus it won't be tolerated here at TrekBBS.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

No no, the Cardassians arrived under the auspices of friendship, and then started strip mining the planet for its resources, and forcibly using Bajorans as slaves and/or farming them into refugee camps. The resistance arose as a result of that. Believe me, it is covered.

As for the UFP, the impression is that they didn't really know about it until late-on, when Picard came across the Bajoran refugees in an off-world camp. From that point on they started doing something about it, as it wasn't long before Cardassia withdrew from Bajor.

Ha...you should read Day of the Vipers. If the Federation's position there had ever been revealed as canon, it would be incredibly damaging to the Feddies on a LOT of levels.

 

[Anwar]

Eh, the Feds never had a real problem with the species subjugated by the Klingons and Romulans. Would be kind of strange they cared so much about the Bajorans while ignoring those other ones.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

It's because it stared the Federation directly in the face. They couldn't ignore it.

 

[Sci]

No no, the Cardassians arrived under the auspices of friendship, and then started strip mining the planet for its resources, and forcibly using Bajorans as slaves and/or farming them into refugee camps. The resistance arose as a result of that. Believe me, it is covered.

As for the UFP, the impression is that they didn't really know about it until late-on, when Picard came across the Bajoran refugees in an off-world camp. From that point on they started doing something about it, as it wasn't long before Cardassia withdrew from Bajor.

Ha...you should read Day of the Vipers. If the Federation's position there had ever been revealed as canon, it would be incredibly damaging to the Feddies on a LOT of levels.

It's been almost a year and a half since I read Day of the Vipers, but I don't know that I agree that it's all that damaging to the Federation. All I recall it establishing was that the Federation received reports that the Cardassian Central Command had smuggled troops, munitions, and surface military transports onto the Cardassian religious enclaves that the Bajoran government had allowed the persecuted Oralian Way to establish on Bajor; a team from Starfleet covertly investigated and discovered that the Central Command was planning on openly invading and annexing Bajor after having used a combination of bribery, blackmail, and political manipulation to secure control of the Bajoran Chamber of Ministers for the previous ten years. Upon returning to a nearby Federation starship, however, the Bajoran First Minister was assassinated (with his death blamed on terrorists), the Cardassian moved their forces into the Bajoran urban centers, and the Chamber of Ministers allowed the Cardassians to take de facto control of the planet. Once those balls were rolling, the Federation government simply decided not to intervene, in accordance with the Prime Directive -- because, after all, the actual Bajoran government had not asked the Federation to do anything.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And this is where I question the Prime Directive. They didn't even ASK Bajor if they wanted help, ASK them if they felt uneasy about what was going on. They never bothered to present the evidence of what they were seeing so the Bajorans could look at that, look at the Cardassian side of things, and make a decision based on all of the information. They just sat on their asses and assumed. Even when they actually HAD assets on the ground able to tell what was going on.

 

[Sci]

And this is where I question the Prime Directive. They didn't even ASK Bajor if they wanted help, ASK them if they felt uneasy about what was going on. They never bothered to present the evidence of what they were seeing so the Bajorans could look at that, look at the Cardassian side of things, and make a decision based on all of the information. They just sat on their asses and assumed. Even when they actually HAD assets on the ground able to tell what was going on.

Well, first, I think it's important to remember that the Federation basically was already too late by the time they put their operatives on the ground. If I'm remembering the book correctly, the Starfleet Intelligence operatives literally arrived the day before the Occupation formally began.

So it's not like the Federation had a lot of time in which to act. They got their operatives there, found out what was about to happen, and by the time the operatives were back aboard a Federation starship, the Occupation had already started.

And, frankly, what, exactly, is the Federation supposed to do at that point? Call up the Bajoran government, which it knew had basically willingly subordinated itself to the Cardassians, and tell them that they'd been spying on Bajor and discovered that the Cardassians were planning on occupying them? Well, no shit, Sherlock; the Occupation had already begun, and meanwhile, the Bajoran government at that point had willingly made itself the Cardassians' puppets. And it's not like the Federation could just organize a referendum on Bajor to ask the Bajoran populace if it wants the Cardassians there or not.

And while the Bajoran government may have willingly committed treason by subordinating itself to the Cardassians, the fact remained that it was the Bajoran government. It's not like there was any other authority on Bajor to go to.

So what do they do, then? Invade Bajor and start a major war with the Cardassians when the Bajorans government seems to have willingly chosen to subordinate itself and hasn't asked for Federation help? Remember, part of the Prime Directive is recognizing that other states have the right to conduct their own foreign relations -- including willingly subordinating themselves to other foreign states. And we all should know how well starting wars to spread freedom actually works after the debacle of Iraq.

I'm sorry, but, realistically, the Federation had no real options. And, at the end of the day, it was an internal matter between Cardassia and Bajor, and not really the Federation's business.