This is an observational post that I wanted to bring to light regarding some things I have noticed across the Trekkie interwebs. One of the things that I like to do is peruse other forums and see what folks are talking about. A couple of other forums I am even apart of, and I'm sure the same can be said about several other members. Of course, it's hard to avoid temptation and to check to see what others are saying regarding the new film as discussion is in high gear. Now of course there are detractors who will go to any lengths to bring the film down. I'm okay with other people's opinions, it's just when they start backing up their opinions with what they may perceive as facts which may be in question that I may take issue with. One of the more popular criticisms were of supposed "plot holes," which a few of those people are more or less clinging on to at the moment. It's gotten to levels to where I think some actually have lost sight of what a plot hole is. It's also amusing because the same people will claim it's dumbed down, yet charge an allegation of a supposed "plot hole" that actually was answered or almost "in our faces" and would have been answered by simply paying attention to the film. I'm about expecting someone to say "There was a major plot hole because the glass was half full in one shot and 3/4 full in the other." It's just silly. However with the alleged plot holes that are usually posted, they are just as fast debunked or cleared up. For instance, one of the biggest of these supposed "plot holes" is "Why didn't Earth have any defenses?" However, only moments earlier we saw Nero interrogating Pike for frequencies to the border protection grids, specifically those surrounding Earth. It admittedly didn't hit me at first (it admittedly wasn't an issue that crossed my mind either,) but of course putting these two pieces together without them having to repeat why Earth's defenses were down, along with a "wink" to the camera, allowed me to start seeing new and clever elements to the story telling. Problem solved. There are a few other moments like this. It got me thinking, is this film actually among the only true "Thinking Man's" installments of Star Trek? Is this film actually intelligent, not because some "message" it tried to convey or even with the plot itself necessarily, but because it requires a certain level of thinking for ourselves to figure it certain elements and it's something that perhaps some are not used to? I also think that to the writer's credits that some of the science that they did use actually relate to real science theories that we have today, and perhaps provides a new way thinking of about time travel and black holes (now to be fair, even I can see some stretching was done for the superdupernova.) As a side note, it always amuses me when some of those same people proclaim for a fact what a black hole can and can't do, almost as though they've been to one! If we knew everything it could do, there would be no theories regarding these, and certainly we would have no need to keep studying them. Now someone may charge that because they didn't spell out everything for us, that it's "bad storytelling." However, I think perhaps the writers gave the audience the ability to put pieces of the story together for themselves. And you know what? I liked it. I liked that upon repeat viewings that more and more layers are discovered and having "Eureka" moments for any thing that maybe did cross my mind. I enjoyed searching for little clues here and there that helped strengthen a point in the film. Furthermore, the answers are found within this movie (as in, "not missing,") but unlike past Star Trek they didn't ram it down our throats. I want to clear up that I'm not saying that certain elements were "brilliant," etc. However, I certainly think that the charges that the film supposedly had "So many plot holes" (which the same people on these other places have never been able to prove) or was "Dumbed down" are bit extreme and without merit, especially when perhaps the film itself suggests otherwise. Thoughts?
The movie had no plot holes using Wiki´s definition. A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. Because the plot was about the first adventure of Kirk and Spock, not the life of Nero. Whatever he did or didn´t do while he wasn´t in the movie is irrelevant. Those that say it had huge plot holes usually only saw it once. So they need to see it again to fill in the gaps they missed.
"No plot holes" is an exaggeration: by the internal logic of the story, and by the general rules of the known universe, there were a couple of impossibilities regarding the events on Delta Vega, impossibilities that nevertheless had to take place in order for the plot to move forward. If these normally impossible things are possible in this fictional universe (this would be a valid out), the movie utterly fails to explain this to the audience, thus creating plot holes of the above definition. 1) How could a stranded Vulcan old-timer with nothing but a torch and an overcoat to his person be better informed about the fate of Vulcan than the crew of the local Starfleet outpost? The plot would have been radically different if this outpost had been aware of the events. We can invent all sorts of excuses, but the content of the movie offers none of these, and clearly the writers were not thinking this bit through. 2) How could Kirk run into Spock Prime's cave? The odds of that would be infinitely low. We can invent all sorts of excuses, but again the movie supports none of them. Plot hole 1 is a classic fumble: an unlikely and unexplained thing happens, and nobody making the movie catches that, or if one does, one doesn't think it would matter. Yet it would turn the whole plot of the movie upside down if the unlikely thing were replaced by a more likely thing. Plot hole 2 is different. The writers obviously know that something with impossibly low odds is happening, but they are justified in thinking that this doesn't matter. If the miracle did not happen, the movie would simply end with the villain winning; it's the choice of the writers to save the hero through a miracle. Both 1 and 2 are plot holes nevertheless, by the above definition. Only 1 is a clear error on the part of the people involved, though: 2 is an example of clumsy storytelling that relies on miracles, but not an error in the sense that the people involved would not have noticed what they were doing. Timo Saloniemi
Both of these are plot holes. I'd vastly prefer if Spock empathed the Vulcan destruction... he's done it before and it would be MORE moving to have him feel it than see it. We've already seen it for goshsakes. Re #2, i'd also prefer if they had met at the entrance to the Starfleet outpost... the place both should have made a beeline towards. The "cave" scene could have occurred just outside the outpost. Okay plothole #3: beaming onto a starship traveling at warp when you don't know where it is. It would be easy enough to insert a throwaway line or screen shot that the outpost monitors nearby Starfleet traffic and ships. In fact you'd kind of expect it - that's part of the reason you have outposts. The Enterprise flies by and a Starfleet outpost doesn't know that? Takes an infinite probability coincidence and makes it a natural outcome.
In what way would it have radically changed the plot? The only difference I can see is that it´s likely that Scotty and Keenser would be upset. Less jokes, maybe, but it wouldn´t change anything else. Not a plot hole by the internal logic of the story. Sure, it may seem very unlikely in the real world, but in this particular movie universe it wasn´t. Coincidence was used twice before it happened: 1. Narada coming out of the black hole close to the Kelvin and killing George Kirk. 2. Nero finding Spock´s ship twenty-five years later. These things weren´t rationally explained in the movie, but it´s still clear that in this universe coincidence and synchorcity do exist and play a vital part.
Delta Vega's communications were not jammed. If they knew what was going on at Vulcan, Starfleet would have known what was going on at Vulcan, and the fleet would have warped in with a higher or more suited degree of preparation for taking on the Narada. Of course, it could be that Delta Vega were jammed at well. This would be a subtly different movie, not a grossly different one. But clearly the movie version we got featured no such jamming, or our sidekicks would have noticed it. Why should this be a coincidence? George Kirk was a non-entity as far as Nero was concerned. Even Jim Kirk was a non-entity; Nero was only concerned about Spock and Vulcan. Sure, Jim would in both universes have been an acquaintance of Spock, but then again, so would hundreds of Starfleet officers of note. Nero was bound to attract the attention of somebody when his giant ship inched its way out of a very prominent spatial anomaly. The Kelvin came to study the anomaly; it could just as well have been some other ship, say, one with the ancestors of Uhura or Sulu aboard, or one with the ancestors of nobody of importance aboard. Why would this be a coincidence? Nero found Spock's ship exactly where he and Aneel had calculated that this ship would appear. How they knew the spot was not shown or told, but that they did was made very explicit. Just part of the black hole physics of this fictional universe. Now, it's perfectly all right to have a coincidence in a movie; as said, a different but equally logical movie would result if there wasn't such a coincidence, and the villain would simply win this round. A movie relying on a series of coincidences would be acceptable in a different manner, with "destiny" as the leading theme as you suggest. But Kirk stumbling onto Spock Prime was an impossibility not properly justified in the movie, whereas a few earlier true coincidences (such as Jim Kirk overhearing key information and having just the right acquaintances) did not rely on impossibilities. Those coincidences could happen in the real world (assuming the real world featured Klingon fleets and Vulcan instructors and whatnot); Kirk finding Spock's cave could never happen in the real world. Timo Saloniemi
Narada destroys Vulcan and sets a course for Earth. Enterprise sets course for Laurentian System. Kirk stranded on planet, needs to walk 14km in terrible conditions... many hours walk and thats after hes had a chat to Spock. Then he needs to talk to Scotty and sort out Transwarp beaming. Enterprise still travelling in the wrong direction. Kirk and Scotty finally beam aboard after god knows how many stranded hours on Delta Vega. Enterprise at this point is crippled and travelling at just Warp 3. After taking command Kirk finally turns the ship around and sets a persuit course for the Narada. Narada arrives at Earth and shortly after (before Narada can even start drilling) the Enterprise is just a few light minutes behind at Saturn! Christ the Narada is slowwwwwwwwwwww Enterprise appeared to take just minutes to get to Vulcan at Max. Warp. -- Kirk and Sulu destroy the drill with a couple of disruptors.. apparently one small Vulcan shuttle with 1 phaser would've been adequate to destroy it... why didnt they? Same goes for Earth. -- Why go to Titan to transwarp beam? Why not just Transwarp Beam to the Narada from whereever they where? -- No shields in this timeline I suppose as K/S beamed aboard the Narada with no problems... yet later on Chekov states their shields are down.
Actually, the assumption is that the ship will get faster as time passes, because of repairs being effected on her engines. Catching up with the Narada isn't such a problem, then - especially if Nero doesn't dare move against Earth until after Pike has coughed up the defense codes. The idea that Vulcan would be just a few minutes from Earth at maximum warp is a bit bothersome, yes. But the Narada need not be slow (and in fact cannot be, because she can pursue Spock's superfast ship at the end of the movie) in order for the plot to make sense; she only need stop and wait for the torture to be completed. Probably helps if you can actually aim at the platform - something that might not be possible unless you stand on the very thing, thanks to the jamming effect. But yes, a plot hole again, requiring rationalization. Good one. But one would assume it would be easier to aim if they actually were close enough to see the enemy. Spock's starship wouldn't be a hostile piece of future technology, with unknown internal configuration and flightplan; Nero's would. Transwarp transporting could be expected to have the further quality of ignoring shields. OTOH, the movie never suggests that shields would block transporting of any sort, so it's probably better to assume that such blocking is absent in this timeline, not that shields are. Timo Saloniemi
Transwarp beaming. Without knowing the Enterprise's exact course and speed would be impossible. Delta Vega. No communications at a Starfleet outpost? Red Matter. Why Spock needed a beach-ball sized container when a single drop can collapse a star is beyond me? While maybe not plot holes, these are massive gaps in simple logic.
First of all, we don´t know where Delta Vega is. It´s fair to assume it´s somewhere in the Vulcan system, though. Second, why would a small research station in the middle of nowhere on Delta Vega communicate with Starfleet Command or the fleet during a crisis? There´s not a lot he could do. Third, it´s not very likely that he´s got a direct link to Starfleet Command since it´s clearly suggested by Scotty that he was sent there as punished because of what happened to Archer´s dog. Fourth, Scotty is sleeping when they arrive. It doesn´t seem he´s very aware of what´s happening in the outside world. Because it´s very unlikely that the Narada would end up at the same spot where the hero of the movie is being born. Since the main plot is the story of the first adventure of Kirk and Spock -- and not about Nero -- this is a huge coincidence. And it´s clearly suggested by Spock in the middle of the movie when he talks about that their destinies may have changed. He did end up in the exact right spot for the plot of the movie. Had he ended up somewhere else the plot would have been radically altered since it did change the life of Kirk. Yeah, you´re right about this. My mistake. Spock clearly suggests the destiny theme in the middle of the movie as well. If we look at it as a sequel to TOS and the six first movies, I think it´s quite clear that it does rely on a series of coincidences or the a sense of destiny from the get go. At the end of the cave scene, Spock tells Kirk that there is a Starfleet base not far from them. Kirk also knew this since the computer in the escape pod told him about it, but he didn´t tell Spock. So how did Spock know? Obviously, the base could be there in the original time line. This would, however, mean that Spock knew the exact geography of that part of Delta Vega, which seems unlikely. Instead, given that Spock in mind meld says that Nero wanted him to experience the pain of losing his home for the rest of his life, it´s more likely that Nero put him close to the base and told him about it. This would make a very unlikely event far more likely. It´s not clearly stated, but it´s not a far-fetched conclusion. Of course, in reality they cut the scene where Spock Prime speculates about the time line mending itself.
I love this, the OP talks about people making weak plot holes and here we are proving him! What outpost - the one Scotty was on? The one that he is marooned on in the middle of no-where? Why would any-one bother contacting him? If a US Fleet got wiped out in Iceland, would anyone really bother to notify a science team in the arctic? Sure its closer, but who cares. Even if the outpost has the capacity to find out - Scotty would have to be looking for such an event first. Spock on the other hand not only has forewarning of whats happening, but telepathic links. I love this - this is so poorly thought out. Nero - Wants Spock to live, wants him to see/feel destruction of Vulcan. Places him near closest outpost. Spock - Wants Kirk to live(Annoyed but not murder), wants to get rid of him fast. Places him near closest outpost. Add in a bit of destiny (Which is a crucial element to this film, whether you like it or not), and it becomes extremely logical that they meet. First assumes we need exact course and speed. Then assumes that Spock cannot find these out. Whoa, what do you mean by communications? And who are they contacting? (i've already explained why they would not know about Vulcan, and just because they are star fleet doesn't mean they have instantaneous comm - they may use day or week old forms of communication - especially since Vulcan is gone! Your assuming that not only you know a lot about red matter here (Which you don't know) and that Spock knows a lot about red matter. If i was going to an emergency i'm not going to spend time building a container for the smallest piece of red matter needed - i'm going to grab everything I can in the time available and do the maths on route. For all we know red matter could be extremely volatile in small amounts (as all 3 singularities where formed with small amounts of red matter!).
I love this, the OP talks about people making weak plot holes and here we are proving him! What outpost - the one Scotty was on? The one that he is marooned on in the middle of no-where? Why would any-one bother contacting him? If a US Fleet got wiped out in Iceland, would anyone really bother to notify a science team in the arctic? Sure its closer, but who cares. Even if the outpost has the capacity to find out - Scotty would have to be looking for such an event first. Spock on the other hand not only has forewarning of whats happening, but telepathic links. I love this - this is so poorly thought out. Nero - Wants Spock to live, wants him to see/feel destruction of Vulcan. Places him near closest outpost. Spock - Wants Kirk to live(Annoyed but not murder), wants to get rid of him fast. Places him near closest outpost. Add in a bit of destiny (Which is a crucial element to this film, whether you like it or not), and it becomes extremely logical that they meet. First assumes we need exact course and speed. Then assumes that Spock cannot find these out. Whoa, what do you mean by communications? And who are they contacting? (i've already explained why they would not know about Vulcan), and just because they are star fleet doesn't mean they have instantaneous comm - they may use day or week old forms of communication - especially since Vulcan is gone! (Since Vulcan is most likely their comm link!) Your assuming that not only you know a lot about red matter here (Which you don't know) and that Spock knows a lot about red matter. If i was going to an emergency i'm not going to spend time building a container for the smallest piece of red matter needed - i'm going to grab everything I can in the time available and do the maths on route. For all we know red matter could be extremely volatile in small amounts (as all 3 singularities where formed with small amounts of red matter!).
In order to hit a moving target you need to know where the target is headed and how fast it'll get there. No other way about it. And with the Enterprise sub-space comms down there would be no way to track the ship. Telling me that Starfleet would build an installation without the ability to contact Starfleet? Red Matter. If you don't think that a small ship carrying a beach-ball sized container isn't a problem...
Why the Narada may be slow. They need to repair the jamming device that Sulu and Kirk destroyed on the drill. They need the security codes from Pike. They may need to repair the Narada after taking on 47 Klingon ships the day before and the seven Federation ships. Nero is in no hurry since he knows that there´s nothing that can stop him now. Well, it appeared to take just minutes. But Chekov gives the exact time in his message to the crew, and it was far longer than a few minutes. Don´t have time to look up the actual quote, but it´s in there. Also, Kirk changes his clothes, which suggests that it´s longer than just a few minutes. -- Not true. Kirk and Sulu destroyed the device that jammed the transporters and communications. The drill was unharmed. Let´s look at why no Vulcan shuttles destroyed it. First, there may be no military ships on Vulcan. The society is portrayed as a peaceful and closed society -- a bit like Tibet -- where science and intropection are the most important things. Second, they were not aware of the drill or its actual location since communications were jammed. This is clearly supported by the fact that the Vulcan High Command contacts Starfleet asking for assistance to evacuate the planet because of unusual seismic activities. They may not even be aware they are attacked. Third, the Narada had plenty of time to destroy any Vulcan defences before the Enterprise arrived. Scotty suggests on Delta Vega that transwarp beaming only works within a solar system. Therefore, the only safe place where they don´t risk being detected is Titan. Well, this is certainly illogical compared to the rest of the Trek universe. But nothing in the movie stated that you can´t beam thru shields.
"It never occurred to me to think of space as the thing that was moving." -Scotty to Spock when he understands his formula for Transwarp Beaming. It never occurs to many of the detractors of this point either. If space rather than Enterprise is moving, what do they really need to calculate?
When has this been the case? This is an assumption, not a fact. Again this is an assumption, not a fact. It is logical to assume that the outpost would be able to figure out where it is. First, it depends what you call communication - there are instillations in the real world where contact is months or years away - though satellite communications is helping. Second, as an outpost remarkably close to Vulcan - where do you think the "Fast" communications are going to be sent? Oh wait - thats down. Third, even if it had communications - how would this change the story? Not really, In an emergency speed is the issue. Again you know nothing about red matter, and you don't know how much Vulcan knew about red matter. There are three easy solutions: 1) They didn't know how much they would need. 2) Less volatile in bigger groups. It may be impossible to move small amounts of red matter at high warp - we don't know either way. 3) It was faster to put a large quantity of red matter on the ship than a small one - they may not have had a small container. It's called "Red" matter for a reason.
Let me take a crach at this I see no indication that Scotty was unaware of the events, nor do we know the range of the interference during the drill. Scotty may well, once the drill was disabled, managed to get a long range message out. We don't know ANYTHING about the capabilities or purpose of the outpost, and it's not important enough to spend dialogue time on. There was some dialogue indicating that the Universe was attempting to set it's course straight after being disrupted. This was removed during editing.
Really it is simple. Without knowing how fast the ship is moving or where it is going, exactly, you have no way of knowing where to point the transporter (unless we've just decided to move Star Trek completely into the fantasy/magic genre). Same thing applies if space is moving and the ship is standing still (which would seem impossible), since the distance between the ship and Delta Vega wouldn't change. The 'space is moving' line is a nod to Futurama, nothing more. The Enterprise could have used the subspace transmitter at Delta Vega to contact the fleet at the Laurentian system. Let's not forget that giant dish sitting right outside the base. Red Matter. Let's see: we believe one dose will collapse a star. Good enough. So let's send Spock deep into enemy territory with a million doses... just in case. Face it, the giant red beach ball looked cool. Nothing more.
If no targeting was necessary: Why did Scotty end up in the coolant system? Did Spock Prime deposit him there on purpose? Or why not just beam a bomb with a short fuse directly to the Narada?