Plot Holes or Thought Holes?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Devon, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    LOL I'm glad that was cut.
     
  2. Vigilance

    Vigilance Commander Red Shirt

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    Not just this film. Why was Kirk the captain, Spock the first officer, Uhura comms, Sulu helm on the mirror universe enterprise?

    With everything else that was different, everyone not only ended up on the same ship, but in the same jobs?

    First, best destiny indeed.


    Heck, Edith Keeler noticed it after knowing Kirk and Spock for about a week- their destiny is to fight side by side.

    And I believe one of the writers (or maybe JJ) actually mention this fact in talking about the film.

    Destiny has always been a huge component of the Star Trek universe.
     
  3. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. Even in TUC, Kirk mused that the accomplishments he used to chalk up to his great skill may have been mostly luck. Kirk and his crew lived charmed lives.

    And just a note about some of the things being picked apart in this thread. Disagreeing with the application of a technology or discussing what characters did or did not do (or should or should not have done) in the movie is not the same as discussing a plot hole.
    If the technobbable of transwarp beaming was inconsistent with other Trek science (which is mostly pseudoscience and quite inconsistent already), or if the red matter behaved differently one time compared to another, or if the black hole wasn't consistent within the Trek science created around it, or if characters behave inconsistently just for the convenience of moving the story, then one has examples of plot holes.
    In other words, it isn't a plot hole just because one disagrees with how transwarp beaming was done in the movie, or that one finds it hard to believe a black hole could do what it did, or one wonders why Scotty didn't know about Vulcan being destroyed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But Kirk only became the hero because he was born where the Narada emerged. It's not a coincidence, then, but a logical sequence of events. Kirk would have been no hero, and would probably have died of alcohol overdose in Iowa a few hours before Earth was consumed by a black hole, if he weren't the son of the man who confronted Nero first, and thus e.g. didn't know the details of Nero's first engagement with Starfleet.

    As for the communications issue, it's a huge deal that Vulcan suddenly goes silent. Starfleet isn't sent to investigate because Vulcan reported seismic activity, but because Vulcan went silent and nobody knows what the heck is going on. If there were an observation post in the Vulcan system (one where Spock Prime can literally watch the planet die - hence probably on a moon of Vulcan, and never mind that the planet isn't supposed to have those), it would become the most important Starfleet asset in the history of the organization immediately: everybody would try to contact it. And obviously everybody could, since instant comms are a key feature of the movie. So it can't be a technological or organizational issue that makes Scotty oblivious to the events at Vulcan (assuming the outpost is near Vulcan). It must be something else.

    Two possibilities here, really. 1) Scotty was asleep at the wheel and had turned off all the alarms that must have been in place in case of comms blackouts, alien invasions and other such things. 2) Delta Vega was nowhere near Vulcan.

    Both of these pose problems. The first makes one of the more important sidekicks in the movie criminally incompetent. The second assumes that Spock could observe the death of his homeworld telepathically from a distance (something that TOS certainly supports, as per "Immunity Syndrome"), but offers no explanation as to why Nero would place Spock on that particular planet if the location did not matter.

    Really, it makes zero sense that Nero would maroon Spock Prime anywhere. Nero has a longterm plan of destroying the entire UFP, planet by planet. He doesn't want to deliver Spock in the hands of his enemies. He wants to make sure Spock sees Vulcan die. The only solution that makes sense, then, is to have Spock aboard the Narada, where he can be controlled and forced to watch. Anywhere else he would be a threat, or at the very least could avoid facing the destruction of Vulcan by a variety of ways (getting drunk and sleeping past the event, committing suicide etc.). And placing him within walking range of a Starfleet asset is the pinnacle of idiocy.

    That if anything is a giant plot hole. The movie gives no indication that Nero would be stupid. He's a raving lunatic all right, but not stupid. When he acts stupid, then, it's a writing goof. Heroes and villains can make innocent mistakes, but they can't act completely against character unless it's a plot point.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nero's revenge against Spock Prime drove him above everything else. He also may have been unware of Scotty's post on the planet, so his thinking is he maroons Spock Prime with just enough supplies to live long enough to see Vulcan be destroyed.

    If anything, one should ask why Spock Prime is living in a cave if he knows the Federation outpost is so close by. My answer for that has been that Spock Prime had essentially given up until he met Kirk. I mean Spock Prime admitted that he was emotionally compromised. Given his penchant for understatement, devastated would probably be a better word. He didn't seem to think he had a chance until Kirk stumbled back into his life.

    If Nero's main goal was to destroy the UFP home planets, he could've started on day one (or at least after making repairs after being rammed by the Kelvin). After stranding Spock, his plan was just the galactic equivalent of a mad man going on a suicidal shooting spree.

    As you say, Nero was a lunatic, which means insane, which means his behavior isn't going to be rational. That is, he will do stupid things. I mean the entire idea of visiting each UFP home planet one by one and destroying them is insane. No plot holes here. No inconsistent behavior.
     
  6. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's not a plot hole; it's an unlikely coincidence. No matter how unlikely it is, it's still not a plot hole.
     
  7. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I just don't think folks have their terms straight. For example, the flyers that appear out of nowhere in the vault of the casino in Ocean's 11 (the one with George Clooney) is even admitted to be a plot hole.

    A plot hole is a big thing. It has no explanation from within the context of the movie. It defies even the logic of the movie. Quibbling with the plot is one thing (too many coincidences, not agreeing with the technobbable, time to travel to Vulcan can't be "right"), but plot holes are major. Are there any undeniable real plot holes in ST09?
     
  8. OneBuckFilms

    OneBuckFilms Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Kirk actually knew the cours of the Enterprise, since he knew what speed they were travelling, and it's intended destination.

    He was there not that long ago, you know.

    It's also possible that sensors on the shuttle could track her course.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    That would imply that the Enterprise remained on a constant course and speed heading all the way to the Laurentian system. Which is possible. It also opens up the question of why not beam directly to the fleet in the Laurentian system gather some troops then beam directly to the Narada and take the ship by force?

    Of course, as another poster pointed out a long time ago, more would have to be done to the shuttle than change a few lines of code to even make 'transwarp beaming' work.
     
  10. OneBuckFilms

    OneBuckFilms Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's entirely possible that Spock Prime had some way to track the escape pod locator signal, as well as Kirk's Tricorder transmissions (log entries), perhaps recognizing it as James T. Kirk.

    He then saw Kirk running from Big Red, and knew the local wildlife enough that the creature was unaccustomed to fire (being on an ice ball), and managed to startle it to rescue Kirk.

    It may be that the outpost was dependent on relaying short-range transmissions with Vulcan, and since Vulcan was gone, so was the capability to transmit long range.

    It looked like it was a very small outpost on Delta Vega, so it may have to be dependent on other means, such as a booster relay, for long range communications.

    My guess is that the outpost was a wildlife observation post, and Scotty was there to simply maintain the equipment. Perhaps it was monitoring seizmic activity etc. on Delta Vega, and was only meant to transmit as far as Vulcan, and tap into Vulcan's long range communications grid for contact outside the Vulcan system.
     
  11. npsf3000

    npsf3000 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Thanks, thats what I was trying to say, but no-where as nearly well articulated.
     
  12. npsf3000

    npsf3000 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    A) Your applying 21st century physics to 23rd - think about whats happened in the last 200 years.

    B) Your assuming that they didn't know the course etc of the ship.

    C) Your ignoring the fact that Scott makes a speech about "hitting a bullet with another bullet...", then realizes its possible with the formula given by Spock.

    D) You can't beam aboard a in warp ship, so maybe there is some radiation leakage that would allow targeting of a transporter - I don't have to know where a plane is to use a F&F heatseaker.

    E) Combination of the above.


    'Space is Moving' can be a lot more than a nod to Futurama, some of sciences greatest insights have come from observations like that - it makes sense that that would be the answer to trans-warp beaming.

    A) How does this matter.
    B) Would this even be possible (Not only technically but also as a matter of protocol - radio silence etc)
    C) Where they in contact anyway?

    I gave you 4 good reasons, you quoted me but decided not to read.
     
  13. Sector 7

    Sector 7 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I watched the movie tonight with commentary. JJ Abrams admits he should have left the lines about destiny and the timeline correcting itself in the movie.