Why the death penalty for going to Talos IV?

[Christopher]

Using precedent from the US, legislator typically only makes new laws. They rarely get rid of old ones. Old laws are (typically) only removed when challenged in court (oftentimes cited as "unconstitutional"). A law that no one ever breaks will never be put before court, and therefor will never be removed.

So, no one ever goes to Talos IV, and the law is never challenged in court. People still murder, etc, so those death-penalty laws are removed as being illegal laws.

Now to the flaws:

The law, accompanied with the death penalty, wasn't enacted that long ago. It was enacted after Christopher Pike visited the planet.

The death penalty law sound like it might've been across the board.

The thing is, it wasn't a civilian law, it was a Starfleet general order. Wikipedia describes a general order thusly:

In militaries, a general order is a published directive, originated by a commander, and binding upon all personnel under his command, the purpose of which is to enforce a policy or procedure unique to his unit's situation which is not otherwise addressed in applicable service regulations, military law, or public law. A general order has the force of law; it is an offense punishable by court martial or lesser military court to disobey one. What makes it a general order (as opposed to a direct order), is that the actor is not explicitly named, nor precisely that (or whom) which is to be acted upon.

So there wouldn't have been any legislators involved. A commanding officer, probably Starfleet's commander-in-chief, would've issued this as an order to all Starfleet personnel. It would remain in force until someone of the same rank or higher rescinded it (though the only person higher would be the UFP president).

 

[SeerSGB]

Maybe it was the doing of the Talosians?

We don't know how far and to what extent their true powers go. They know that, no matter what Pike says, humans are bound to show up and sniff around. So they reach out telepathically and influence the decision makers to put Talos IV as a Death Penalty planet as a means of discouraging further attempts to explore/research the planet.

 

[Timo]

Why would Talosians want to keep humans out, though? They want slaves and technology in order to rise from the rut in which the destruction of their civilization left them. Humans can provide those, either directly or indirectly. Talosians can get them by using their mind powers on humans, or by negotiating with humans bona fide. But in either case, they need humans on their planet.

As for GO7 being a Starfleet order, one would have to assume it affects civilians, too. If a disciplined Starfleet employee cannot be trusted with staying out of Talos unless he is threatened with death, the civilian scum obviously need similar or greater levels of threat.

Of course, it's quite unlikely that the seventh of Starfleet's General Orders would be first formulated as late as in 2254, and would be of such narrow applicability. A more likely story would have GO7 be a general quarantine order that allows for various sanctions in various cases, and Talos would be a case where a death penalty is warranted - the only such case in the mid-2260s.

GO4 from "Turnabout Intruder" could be a general order on something else, again with various sanctions for various cases, and at least one case with death as the sanction would be known to our heroes at the time of that episode, but would not have yet been applicable at the time of "The Menagerie". Like Talos, that case would probably cease to be valid soon afterwards, and something else would take its place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SeerSGB]

Why would Talosians want to keep humans out, though? They want slaves and technology in order to rise from the rut in which the destruction of their civilization left them. Humans can provide those, either directly or indirectly. Talosians can get them by using their mind powers on humans, or by negotiating with humans bona fide. But in either case, they need humans on their planet.

As for GO7 being a Starfleet order, one would have to assume it affects civilians, too. If a disciplined Starfleet employee cannot be trusted with staying out of Talos unless he is threatened with death, the civilian scum obviously need similar or greater levels of threat.

Of course, it's quite unlikely that the seventh of Starfleet's General Orders would be first formulated as late as in 2254, and would be of such narrow applicability. A more likely story would have GO7 be a general quarantine order that allows for various sanctions in various cases, and Talos would be a case where a death penalty is warranted - the only such case in the mid-2260s.

GO4 from "Turnabout Intruder" could be a general order on something else, again with various sanctions for various cases, and at least one case with death as the sanction would be known to our heroes at the time of that episode, but would not have yet been applicable at the time of "The Menagerie". Like Talos, that case would probably cease to be valid soon afterwards, and something else would take its place.

Timo Saloniemi

Remember the end: The keeper said that Humans were far to aggressive for the Talosians needs.

They knew humans wouldn't adapt/accept living the life of slavery to the Talosians, they knew that their hold over the human was dodgy at best. Now multiple Pike and Number 1 by a few million pissed off slaves in revolt who had managed to resiste and/or use the Talosian mind powers, and suddenly locking the door and pulling the curtains makes a lot of sense to the Talosians.

They needed a slave race, but they didn't need humans speficially, they were a bad fit for the job. Plus putting the bar on travel to Talos IV would allow them to continue to look for a slave race without Starfleet sticking its nose into their business.

 

[Timo]

They'd have to mind-control all of mankind if they created a nonsensical Starfleet regulation and expected all humans to obey it, though. And who'd fall in their trap now that they had let the humans escape and spread the story?

Their powers weren't of persuasion anyway, but of illusion. We have to imagine circumstances where humans out of their own free will would formulate General Order 7 - regardless of whether those circumstances were real, or an illusion created by the Talosians. And it's pretty difficult to imagine circumstances where Starfleet would stop its officers from going, but would continue to allow innocents to fly into the trap.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SeerSGB]

They'd have to mind-control all of mankind if they created a nonsensical Starfleet regulation and expected all humans to obey it, though. And who'd fall in their trap now that they had let the humans escape and spread the story?

Their powers weren't of persuasion anyway, but of illusion. We have to imagine circumstances where humans out of their own free will would formulate General Order 7 - regardless of whether those circumstances were real, or an illusion created by the Talosians. And it's pretty difficult to imagine circumstances where Starfleet would stop its officers from going, but would continue to allow innocents to fly into the trap.

Timo Saloniemi

Remember what Vima said, using their powers, the Talosians could make the crew do what needed to be done to destroy the Enterprise. So it wouldn't be much of a push to implant a seed of an ideal, or an illusion, that General Order 7 was needed. Once it was on the books, and the reasons for it buried (even Gen. 7 doesn't specifiy why they need order) then it's unlikely to be questioned to much.

And another take, without the Talosian mindcontrol, is that the Talosians negoiated with Starfleet and Gen. 7 was the outcome.

 

[Myasishchev]

Yes, let's remember the lifespan of this death penalty rule. Captain Pike proposed it in 2254 or so, and it existed until 2268 or so when it was first challenged and found both inefficient and unnecessary. For that time, it was Starfleet's General Order 7 (or more accurately, GO7 included the ban and penalty on Talos visits, perhaps among other things). Yet a few years later, in "Turnabout Intruder", the only death penalty in the books was General Order 4 (or something mentioned in GO4) instead.

It only seems natural to me that Starfleet would encounter truly mortal threats to the Federation, its citizens and its way of life in the course of its deep space explorations. There would be an initial reaction to such threat, naturally maximized in potency to match the graveness of the threat - and then a gradual increasing understanding of the threat, which would also lead to gradual easing of the countermeasures. New threats would constantly keep emerging, though, so it might be standard for Starfleet to constantly have one or two death penalties in the books, but never for more than a few decades.

Certainly the Talosian threat was a grave one: had these little telepaths been intent on galactic domination, they would easily have achieved that goal, as long as somebody provided them with an interstellar spacecraft. Death penalty, or threat of some other sort of extreme punishment such as torture of loved ones, would sound like a good deterrent, since alternatives would be lacking. Starfleet couldn't blockade the planet because the Talosians would capture the blockading ships and take over the galaxy. Starfleet couldn't issue comprehensive warnings to the general public, either, because many would see the Talosians as a useful tool in their own plans of galactic domination or other evildoing.

The risk of complacency at the acquisition of Talosian self-satisfaction techniques was never a serious one, and probably played no role in Starfleet's decision to isolate the planet. And the risk of galactic conquest was exposed as minimal in "The Menagerie", where it was shown both that all of Starfleet's efforts at stopping people from visiting Talos were futile, and that the failure of those efforts did not in fact lead to a Talosian takeover of the universe.

Generally speaking, the Star Trek galaxy could be expected to present a great many threats that would lead to the quick extinction of mankind unless mankind responded with draconian measures. That the TV shows and movies show relatively few such threats is an argument against those draconian measures - but it's not an argument the heroes themselves could use. They can't know that the galaxy is in fact an unrealistically safe place where nothing only rated for adult audiences can ever happen.

Timo Saloniemi

I rather like this.

It sort of reminds me of Roddenberry's TMP novelization, where he mentions that crews get seduced by (and starships get lost to) advanced space cultures alarmingly frequently. He posited that to meet this threat Starfleet purposely structured itself to be staffed and operated by what were, by 23d century standards, ultraconservative hicks.

 

[Zeppster]

Yep some race like the Romulans or other races could use the Talosians as a weapon or the Talosians could suddenly try and take over races.

 

[Wingsley]

Maybe we should approach this from a different angle: we know that the Federation designates some worlds/systems as quarantined, whether because they are worried about diseases/parasites, or some other local hazard. Kirk was apparently considering adding Delta Vega to the quarantine list before he set out in pursuit of Mitchell and Dehner.

In essence, a "plague world" would be one that the Federation designates as too dangerous to visit because of something local that is dangerous and may spread. Starship captains are apparently given authority to at least make recommendations as to adding new worlds to the "plague world" list. I would imagine that Delta Vega and the Time Planet, home of the Guardian of Forever, would be prime candidates. Some worlds may be under tighter quarantine than others, probably determined by the level of threat the local hazard poses. (In other words, if there's something really dangerous there, it gets put on the General Order 7 list and don't let Starfleet catch you going there or coming from there, or you'll be charged with a capital offense.) So maybe there is no "Talos Death Rule", maybe there's a "plague world" rule that Talos falls under.

So the death penalty threat may not be the only thing about General Order 7. Maybe the whole quarantine issue would be the real deterrent.

I'd also like to point something else out regarding the power of the Talosians:

Kirk set out from Starbase 11 in a Federation Starbase shuttlecraft, thinking he was accompanied by Commodore Mendez. But we later learn that Kirk was alone the whole time. He was carrying on that conversation with a man who did not exist. So, Kirk was talking to himself? As my late grandfather would say "Least he was talking to an honest man..."

This means the Talosians have the power to create a substantial illusion on Starbase 11, which is supposedly "six days away at maximum warp". Either the Talosians have their own means of interstellar transportation or their mental powers can span light-years! I prefer to think that both scenarios are equally possible and there's nothing to negate either possibility from what we see in "The Menagerie".

 

[Timo]

Indeed, the whole quarantine attempt was proven futile in the episode, even if we don't learn how the Talosians did it.

If their powers really have interstellar reach (and that does sound likelier than one of them hiding in the shuttle with Kirk!), then we might suspect that Spock was under their spell the whole time, too. He might not have considered this particularly illegal and risky solution to Pike's agony if the Talosians hadn't pushed him in this direction.

Furthermore, if the Talosians had the power to summon Spock and then Kirk to Talos, not only does it indirectly prove that they were nonmalevolent (because they didn't use the summons as a means to conquer the Federation), but it suggests they were actually benevolent (because they would have organized this whole effort solely in order to provide humanitarian aid to Pike). One wonders what other operations they would have undertaken that we don't know of...

...If, OTOH, their Pike-saving operation was the only one, we have to wonder why they chose to perform it. Did they calculate that this gesture of goodwill would improve relations with the UFP and ultimately save their civilization? Did they just flex their mental wings by reaching for the only extratalosian they really knew? Who contacted whom first? Did Spock phone the Talosians, or did they listen to UFP news and gossip and then contact Spock?

All sorts of intriguing details and loose ends in this episode. Only goes to show that the cross-breeding of two essentially separate and even dissimilar fictional universes results in hybrid vigor!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Wingsley]

^ Something else to consider:

"The Menagerie" makes it obvious that the Talosians do indeed have interstellar reach with their powers. This is proven, not just by the illusion of Mendez, but also by their ability to fabricate a seemingly perfect record of Pike's decision to divert to Talos in the first place. It is reasonable to conclude there was no lightspeed distress signal from the Earth colonyship; that, too, was an illusion.

I'd like to speculate on the "true" nature of General Order 7. It is obvious from the "elderly Vina unveiling scene" that Pike stayed on the surface longer than Number One expected. We can easily assume Pike did some serious negotiating right after Vina went back underground. The Talosians probably learned of General Order 7 from their intrusive download of the Enterprise's data library. The Magistrate probably suggested a declaration of Talos IV as a "plague world" covered by 7 as a way to discourage unwanted visitors from Federation worlds to the Talos Star Group. The impression I was left with was that the quarantine was Magistrate's idea, and Pike concurred.

It might go like this:

PIKE and MAGISTRATE LOOK ON as VINA is lowered underground.

PIKE
At least there, she'll be well cared for.

MAGISTRATE
Yes, we will provide for her. She will remain safe in our underground complex.

PIKE
And... she's going to think she's with me? How will you keep the illusion going after I'm gone?

FIRST TALOSIAN
We have the ability to assimilate all of your knowledge, all of your memories and feelings. You will always remain with us, even after you have gone.

SECOND TALOSIAN
That is key to the "narcotic" you spoke of. No Talosian ever dies, even if the physical body expires.

MAGISTRATE
As Magistrate for our community, I am not simply the Keeper of our captives. I am the custodian of a world of memories and illusions that never ends.

PIKE
Now, our Federation has had an uneasy status quo among our members for generations when it comes to psionic powers. So far, we've let it mostly settle on disciplines of the various cultures. So it's been an internal matter.

FIRST TALOSIAN
You speak of the Vulcan discipline, as an example. Yes, we have noted this.

MAGISTRATE
As a starship captain, you assumed First Contact responsibilities on this matter.

PIKE
Yes, and in my judgement, we should assume other visitors will come to your world. What arrangements would you find acceptable?

SECOND TALOSIAN
Our race is infertile. We are the last of our kind.

FIRST TALOSIAN
But unlike the worlds in your Federation, we can extend our lives indefinitely.

MAGISTRATE
We shall remain beneath the surface of our world, forever sequestered... and forever protected.

PIKE
And also forever trapped there? The way you live doesn't sound much different than what you had planned for us!

FIRST TALOSIAN
Our captivity is our way of life. It has been that way for over eighty thousand generations. Our freedom comes to us vicariously through living the dreams and memories of those we assimilate.

PIKE
But you will eventually die?

MAGISTRATE
Our demise is not imminent, but even our abilities cannot stop the inevitable.

PIKE
And you don't want any meddling from outside to complicate matters...

SECOND TALOSIAN
Long ago, we learned to evaluate the abilities and attitudes of races throughout this Galaxy.

MAGISTRATE
We determined the best approach to discourage unwanted contact was to make our world appear as unattractive and valueless as possible.

PIKE
I see what you're getting at. Make this place seem like nothing more that a barren rock.. or worse, a plague world...

FIRST TALOSIAN
That no inquisitive space traveler would want to visit or colonize.

PIKE
That only problem is, one man's meat is another man's poison. If we record this world as unattractive to us, how do we know others won't come?

MAGISTRATE
Perhaps General Order Seven would prove useful.

PIKE
(smiling)
You read my mind.

SECOND TALOSIAN
Your Starfleet General Orders would seem to make allowance for a quarantine that would discourage open discussion in the event unwanted visitors did arrive here.

PIKE
And this would keep the cork in the bottle.
(to MAGISTRATE)
I agree.

MAGISTRATE
That arrangement would be satisfactory.

PIKE
I'll make my report to Starfleet Command immediately. Will that be sufficient?

MAGISTRATE
We are able to reach your superiors should it become necessary.

PIKE
(chuckles)
I'll bet you are. That's it, then.

MAGISTRATE
You will now be returned to your vessel. We have illusion and you have reality. May you find your way as pleasant.

 

[Broccoli]

Clearly it was Capt. Robau's Planet of Solitude. He wanted no interruptions when he took his vacations with large breasted women, so he demanded the whole General Order 13 thing for the planet.

"The Menagerie" is the only good clip show in history. Pike's story is the only excuse for the thing.

And this Trekkie has realized that rationalizing this shit is a waste of life.

Yet coming into a thread complaining about people rationalizing for fun is not a waste of life?

 

[The Castellan]

Death penalty, or threat of some other sort of extreme punishment such as torture of loved ones, would sound like a good deterrent, since alternatives would be lacking.

Oh FUCK NO! When a group, any group, attacks someone's loved ones.....I'll be leaving the Federation right away.

Attacking one's loved ones or friends is more criminal the the 'crime' commited. They are, to quote the Klingons, "Honerless Dogs!"

 

[Guy Gardener]

prometheus plus tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden.

It is SO a plague world.

You land on that planet you might as well be dead, because you'll be duped into being raped cattle until they juice you to feed to their other "visitors".

 

[starfleettanner]

^ Something else to consider:

"The Menagerie" makes it obvious that the Talosians do indeed have interstellar reach with their powers. This is proven, not just by the illusion of Mendez, but also by their ability to fabricate a seemingly perfect record of Pike's decision to divert to Talos in the first place. It is reasonable to conclude there was no lightspeed distress signal from the Earth colonyship; that, too, was an illusion.

I'd like to speculate on the "true" nature of General Order 7. It is obvious from the "elderly Vina unveiling scene" that Pike stayed on the surface longer than Number One expected. We can easily assume Pike did some serious negotiating right after Vina went back underground. The Talosians probably learned of General Order 7 from their intrusive download of the Enterprise's data library. The Magistrate probably suggested a declaration of Talos IV as a "plague world" covered by 7 as a way to discourage unwanted visitors from Federation worlds to the Talos Star Group. The impression I was left with was that the quarantine was Magistrate's idea, and Pike concurred.

It might go like this:

PIKE and MAGISTRATE LOOK ON as VINA is lowered underground.

PIKE
At least there, she'll be well cared for.

MAGISTRATE
Yes, we will provide for her. She will remain safe in our underground complex.

PIKE
And... she's going to think she's with me? How will you keep the illusion going after I'm gone?

FIRST TALOSIAN
We have the ability to assimilate all of your knowledge, all of your memories and feelings. You will always remain with us, even after you have gone.

SECOND TALOSIAN
That is key to the "narcotic" you spoke of. No Talosian ever dies, even if the physical body expires.

MAGISTRATE
As Magistrate for our community, I am not simply the Keeper of our captives. I am the custodian of a world of memories and illusions that never ends.

PIKE
Now, our Federation has had an uneasy status quo among our members for generations when it comes to psionic powers. So far, we've let it mostly settle on disciplines of the various cultures. So it's been an internal matter.

FIRST TALOSIAN
You speak of the Vulcan discipline, as an example. Yes, we have noted this.

MAGISTRATE
As a starship captain, you assumed First Contact responsibilities on this matter.

PIKE
Yes, and in my judgement, we should assume other visitors will come to your world. What arrangements would you find acceptable?

SECOND TALOSIAN
Our race is infertile. We are the last of our kind.

FIRST TALOSIAN
But unlike the worlds in your Federation, we can extend our lives indefinitely.

MAGISTRATE
We shall remain beneath the surface of our world, forever sequestered... and forever protected.

PIKE
And also forever trapped there? The way you live doesn't sound much different than what you had planned for us!

FIRST TALOSIAN
Our captivity is our way of life. It has been that way for over eighty thousand generations. Our freedom comes to us vicariously through living the dreams and memories of those we assimilate.

PIKE
But you will eventually die?

MAGISTRATE
Our demise is not imminent, but even our abilities cannot stop the inevitable.

PIKE
And you don't want any meddling from outside to complicate matters...

SECOND TALOSIAN
Long ago, we learned to evaluate the abilities and attitudes of races throughout this Galaxy.

MAGISTRATE
We determined the best approach to discourage unwanted contact was to make our world appear as unattractive and valueless as possible.

PIKE
I see what you're getting at. Make this place seem like nothing more that a barren rock.. or worse, a plague world...

FIRST TALOSIAN
That no inquisitive space traveler would want to visit or colonize.

PIKE
That only problem is, one man's meat is another man's poison. If we record this world as unattractive to us, how do we know others won't come?

MAGISTRATE
Perhaps General Order Seven would prove useful.

PIKE
(smiling)
You read my mind.

SECOND TALOSIAN
Your Starfleet General Orders would seem to make allowance for a quarantine that would discourage open discussion in the event unwanted visitors did arrive here.

PIKE
And this would keep the cork in the bottle.
(to MAGISTRATE)
I agree.

MAGISTRATE
That arrangement would be satisfactory.

PIKE
I'll make my report to Starfleet Command immediately. Will that be sufficient?

MAGISTRATE
We are able to reach your superiors should it become necessary.

PIKE
(chuckles)
I'll bet you are. That's it, then.

MAGISTRATE
You will now be returned to your vessel. We have illusion and you have reality. May you find your way as pleasant.

Necro-posting (please forgive me!) but reading that sounds like a perfect scene that could be played out in the upcoming "Strange New Worlds" Pike series. I literally read this in Anson Mount's Pike voice and it fits perfectly! Anyways, sorry to necropost, but had a random thought/idea of a followup contact with Talos IV and why it remains forbidden to visit it.

 

[1001001]

This thread's been dead for over 10 years.

It's so easy to link to this thread and start a new discussion. Next time, please do that instead.

Thanks.