Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge?
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Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Cold you name, like, a couple of films where that happened? Should be easy if it's such a tired cliche', eh?
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
I'm sure many great songs are sung about him in the empire.
He destroyed a pitiful little convoy ship.
He hired an incompetent gunner who couldn't tell the difference between disabling a small science vessel and destroying it.
He ordered an underling to kill a weakling human rather than do it himself.
He lost most of his crew sending them over to an obvious trap.
And he died in a fight with an overweight old guy wearing a toupee.
And he lost his ship to the enemy.
I'm sure many great songs are sung about him in the empire.
He destroyed a pitiful little convoy ship.
He hired an incompetent gunner who couldn't tell the difference between disabling a small science vessel and destroying it.
He ordered an underling to kill a weakling human rather than do it himself.
He lost most of his crew sending them over to an obvious trap.
And he died in a fight with an overweight old guy wearing a toupee.
And he lost his ship to the enemy.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Batman (1989) Batman sets out to kill the joker, but then extends a hand to save him before he falls. Joker then tries to pull Batman down with him.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles-similar ending with shredder hanging from the side of a building. Shredder tries to pull Splinter down with him.
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: Indy tries to save the blonde girl who betrayed him, but she won't let go of the grail and falls to her death.
Batman Forever: Robin tries to save two-face from falling to his death.
The old "Give me your hand" bit is inevitably followed by the villain trying to betray the hero. Rather than be saved, he'd rather drag his enemy to to his death with him. It happens all the time in cartoons as well, probably moreso than movies. It's a plot device to enable the hero to let the villain be killed without appearing cold-blooded about it.
Sure can. Here goes, off the top of my head:Cold you name, like, a couple of films where that happened? Should be easy if it's such a tired cliche', eh?
Batman (1989) Batman sets out to kill the joker, but then extends a hand to save him before he falls. Joker then tries to pull Batman down with him.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles-similar ending with shredder hanging from the side of a building. Shredder tries to pull Splinter down with him.
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: Indy tries to save the blonde girl who betrayed him, but she won't let go of the grail and falls to her death.
Batman Forever: Robin tries to save two-face from falling to his death.
The old "Give me your hand" bit is inevitably followed by the villain trying to betray the hero. Rather than be saved, he'd rather drag his enemy to to his death with him. It happens all the time in cartoons as well, probably moreso than movies. It's a plot device to enable the hero to let the villain be killed without appearing cold-blooded about it.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Only problem is, all the movies you named were made AFTER STIII.
ANOTHER thing is, they used this very same plot device with Nero in Abram's Trek!!!
Not sure the Indy example fits, but yeah, you made your point.
Only problem is, all the movies you named were made AFTER STIII.
ANOTHER thing is, they used this very same plot device with Nero in Abram's Trek!!!
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
I see you cited Batman twice (the guy who swore never to kill anyone), a kids movie, and Indiana Jones, who loved that girl (and we all know love is irrational).
I already wanted to mention this. In Star Trek 2009, Kirk really executes Nero, he doesn't kill him in self defense as in ST3. That's a big difference that bugs me since.
Sure can. Here goes, off the top of my head:Cold you name, like, a couple of films where that happened? Should be easy if it's such a tired cliche', eh?
Batman (1989) Batman sets out to kill the joker, but then extends a hand to save him before he falls. Joker then tries to pull Batman down with him.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles-similar ending with shredder hanging from the side of a building. Shredder tries to pull Splinter down with him.
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: Indy tries to save the blonde girl who betrayed him, but she won't let go of the grail and falls to her death.
Batman Forever: Robin tries to save two-face from falling to his death.
The old "Give me your hand" bit is inevitably followed by the villain trying to betray the hero. Rather than be saved, he'd rather drag his enemy to to his death with him. It happens all the time in cartoons as well, probably moreso than movies. It's a plot device to enable the hero to let the villain be killed without appearing cold-blooded about it.
I see you cited Batman twice (the guy who swore never to kill anyone), a kids movie, and Indiana Jones, who loved that girl (and we all know love is irrational).
ANOTHER thing is, they used this very same plot device with Nero in Abram's Trek!!!
I already wanted to mention this. In Star Trek 2009, Kirk really executes Nero, he doesn't kill him in self defense as in ST3. That's a big difference that bugs me since.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Kind of, well, gleefully too...
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
One of the best ones happened on TV, in "TJ Hooker". Shatner beat the crap out of a bad guy and he fell over the side of a bridge and grabbed on. Shatner looks down at him and says "Need a hand, SCUM???" Then helps him up.
CLASSIC!
Cold you name, like, a couple of films where that happened? Should be easy if it's such a tired cliche', eh?
One of the best ones happened on TV, in "TJ Hooker". Shatner beat the crap out of a bad guy and he fell over the side of a bridge and grabbed on. Shatner looks down at him and says "Need a hand, SCUM???" Then helps him up.
CLASSIC!
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
(I'm looking at you, Star Wars.)
Well, as I said, those examples were just off the top of my head. But it's something I've always noticed. I probably took it for granted when I first saw ST3 as a kid, because I was so accustomed to seeing and expecting it. But I know I've seen similar situations in hundreds of movies both before and after TSFS. They didn't create that particular cliche. It's as old as the bad guys always having terrible aim.Not sure the Indy example fits, but yeah, you made your point.
Only problem is, all the movies you named were made AFTER STIII.
ANOTHER thing is, they used this very same plot device with Nero in Abram's Trek!!!
(I'm looking at you, Star Wars.)
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
The Batman movies aren't bound by any kind of comic book canon about Batman swearing not to kill anyone. They're a completely different interpretation of the character. Besides, not only did Batman kill people in the early comics, in one case he did so with a machine gun!Sure can. Here goes, off the top of my head:Cold you name, like, a couple of films where that happened? Should be easy if it's such a tired cliche', eh?
Batman (1989) Batman sets out to kill the joker, but then extends a hand to save him before he falls. Joker then tries to pull Batman down with him.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles-similar ending with shredder hanging from the side of a building. Shredder tries to pull Splinter down with him.
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: Indy tries to save the blonde girl who betrayed him, but she won't let go of the grail and falls to her death.
Batman Forever: Robin tries to save two-face from falling to his death.
The old "Give me your hand" bit is inevitably followed by the villain trying to betray the hero. Rather than be saved, he'd rather drag his enemy to to his death with him. It happens all the time in cartoons as well, probably moreso than movies. It's a plot device to enable the hero to let the villain be killed without appearing cold-blooded about it.
I see you cited Batman twice (the guy who swore never to kill anyone), a kids movie, and Indiana Jones, who loved that girl (and we all know love is irrational).
ANOTHER thing is, they used this very same plot device with Nero in Abram's Trek!!!
I already wanted to mention this. In Star Trek 2009, Kirk really executes Nero, he doesn't kill him in self defense as in ST3. That's a big difference that bugs me since.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
It shouldn't be considered a cliche to offer your opponent a hand instead of killing him. It's a morale issue, it makes you a better human if you care for everyone, even for the "bad guys". Capital punishment is not the answer, and war should always be the last option. That's Star Trek, guys, that's all it is.
A tired cliche is the good guy offering a hand and getting beaten up because of it. Because there is a big difference between being a good human and being just dumb.
It shouldn't be considered a cliche to offer your opponent a hand instead of killing him. It's a morale issue, it makes you a better human if you care for everyone, even for the "bad guys". Capital punishment is not the answer, and war should always be the last option. That's Star Trek, guys, that's all it is.
A tired cliche is the good guy offering a hand and getting beaten up because of it. Because there is a big difference between being a good human and being just dumb.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
What the hell does that mean anyway?
First, TNG was way after TSFS, and second: showing merci for others no matter what has always been part of Star Trek. Kirk is not an executioner. At least the original Kirk wasn't.
Relax. I love TNG. Its may second fav Trek series (behind TOS) and I'm well aware of the fact that TSFS was made before that. I meant that TNG was always more politically correct, more about the Prime Directive and by the book and all that stuff compared to TOS. Thats what I was getting at. So no need to get so upset.
I still don't understand this comment about it being so TNG. Kirk offering his hand to Kruge was very typical of TOS episodes. Kirk bent the rules alot but the offering the hand was straight out of several other TOS episodes.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Sure, it's a very Star Trek thing to do, and under normal circumstances, I think it would have been in character for Kirk to help Kruge. Seeing as though his son had just been killed, however, Kirk seems less likely to care about sticking to his usual moral code. Later on, in TUC, his gut response to Spock's assertion that "They're dying" was "LET them die." He obviously didn't really mean it and was blowing off steam, but still. Kruge had just killed his son, and was about to be responsible for making everything they'd done pointless by delaying Spock's departure from the Genesis Planet. Stealing the Enterprise, violating the Genesis Quarantine, ensuring a court-martial, etc. I'm surprised Kirk didn't just dispense with the obligatory helping hand and skip straight to the face-kicking.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Well that's what made the character great, in my opinion.
Actually, it's TUC that doesn't make much sense. In TSFS we see that Kirk is offering Kruge a hand, in TFF he doesn't really like Klingons, but at the end he respectfully greets the Klingon commander in the observation lounge.
The TUC novel delivers an explanation, because Carol Marcus was almost killed in a Klingon attack.
And then there was that interview on the TUC DVD where Nick Meyer said that Roddenberry hated Star Trek VI for exactly that kind of hatred Kirk shows there.
And Shatner complained about Meyer, because when he said "Let them die!", Kirk was supposed to realize what he just said, and get shocked and sad. But Meyer decided to cut to Spock, so we never saw Kirk's reaction to his own words.
Sure, it's a very Star Trek thing to do, and under normal circumstances, I think it would have been in character for Kirk to help Kruge. Seeing as though his son had just been killed, however, Kirk seems less likely to care about sticking to his usual moral code. Later on, in TUC, his gut response to Spock's assertion that "They're dying" was "LET them die." He obviously didn't really mean it and was blowing off steam, but still. Kruge had just killed his son, and was about to be responsible for making everything they'd done pointless by delaying Spock's departure from the Genesis Planet. Stealing the Enterprise, violating the Genesis Quarantine, ensuring a court-martial, etc. I'm surprised Kirk didn't just dispense with the obligatory helping hand and skip straight to the face-kicking.
Well that's what made the character great, in my opinion.
Actually, it's TUC that doesn't make much sense. In TSFS we see that Kirk is offering Kruge a hand, in TFF he doesn't really like Klingons, but at the end he respectfully greets the Klingon commander in the observation lounge.
The TUC novel delivers an explanation, because Carol Marcus was almost killed in a Klingon attack.
And then there was that interview on the TUC DVD where Nick Meyer said that Roddenberry hated Star Trek VI for exactly that kind of hatred Kirk shows there.
And Shatner complained about Meyer, because when he said "Let them die!", Kirk was supposed to realize what he just said, and get shocked and sad. But Meyer decided to cut to Spock, so we never saw Kirk's reaction to his own words.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
TUC makes perfect sense. People say things they don't really mean all the time. There is a big difference between Kirk actually being in the physical situation with Kruge rather than just making an angry comment in his talk with Spock.
I think everybody says things in conversasions at times that they don't really mean and may be out of character for them. That doesn't mean they act on those things.
I think it's much easier for Kirk to make that comment there because he is very detached from the situation. He's close to retirement, he didn't see the suffering of the Klingons on Praxis. The whole situation is light years away and we know he doesn't like the klingons anyway.
We see kirk is not perfect but he still does the right thing in the end. As is quoted later in the film" They don't arrest people for having feelings"
Sure, it's a very Star Trek thing to do, and under normal circumstances, I think it would have been in character for Kirk to help Kruge. Seeing as though his son had just been killed, however, Kirk seems less likely to care about sticking to his usual moral code. Later on, in TUC, his gut response to Spock's assertion that "They're dying" was "LET them die." He obviously didn't really mean it and was blowing off steam, but still. Kruge had just killed his son, and was about to be responsible for making everything they'd done pointless by delaying Spock's departure from the Genesis Planet. Stealing the Enterprise, violating the Genesis Quarantine, ensuring a court-martial, etc. I'm surprised Kirk didn't just dispense with the obligatory helping hand and skip straight to the face-kicking.
Well that's what made the character great, in my opinion.
Actually, it's TUC that doesn't make much sense. In TSFS we see that Kirk is offering Kruge a hand, in TFF he doesn't really like Klingons, but at the end he respectfully greets the Klingon commander in the observation lounge.
The TUC novel delivers an explanation, because Carol Marcus was almost killed in a Klingon attack.
And then there was that interview on the TUC DVD where Nick Meyer said that Roddenberry hated Star Trek VI for exactly that kind of hatred Kirk shows there.
And Shatner complained about Meyer, because when he said "Let them die!", Kirk was supposed to realize what he just said, and get shocked and sad. But Meyer decided to cut to Spock, so we never saw Kirk's reaction to his own words.
TUC makes perfect sense. People say things they don't really mean all the time. There is a big difference between Kirk actually being in the physical situation with Kruge rather than just making an angry comment in his talk with Spock.
I think everybody says things in conversasions at times that they don't really mean and may be out of character for them. That doesn't mean they act on those things.
I think it's much easier for Kirk to make that comment there because he is very detached from the situation. He's close to retirement, he didn't see the suffering of the Klingons on Praxis. The whole situation is light years away and we know he doesn't like the klingons anyway.
We see kirk is not perfect but he still does the right thing in the end. As is quoted later in the film" They don't arrest people for having feelings"
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
*YAAAAAWN*
I always liked the hero not killing the bad guy, then as thanks the bad guy pulls out one last hidden weapon & forces the good guy to kill him.I probably took it for granted when I first saw ST3 as a kid, because I was so accustomed to seeing and expecting it. But I know I've seen similar situations in hundreds of movies both before and after TSFS. They didn't create that particular cliche. It's as old as the bad guys always having terrible aim.
*YAAAAAWN*
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Yes, I realize that. It was an off-the-hand remark. TNG is more PC than TOS, thats what I was getting at.
I'm not trying to be controversial or start a major incident with my little comment.
Yes, I realize that. It was an off-the-hand remark. TNG is more PC than TOS, thats what I was getting at.
I'm not trying to be controversial or start a major incident with my little comment.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
Yeah, and I always *got* that Kirk regretted his comment- it was on Shatner's face even after Meyer's cut. Hell, I've said words to the effect that the whole Middle East should be left alone to destroy each other just after the 9/11 attack. I didn't really mean it. Stupid anger overtakes us all at times; I love that Kirk's not above being... human.
Re: Star Trek III: Would you have offered a hand to Kruge on the ledge
That's one of the things about TOS that I like so much. The characters are not perfect, they have flaws and have good moments and bad moments...I'm not sure why Roddenberry was so against TUC, especially since Kirk had a great character arch in the film.
Yeah, and I always *got* that Kirk regretted his comment- it was on Shatner's face even after Meyer's cut. Hell, I've said words to the effect that the whole Middle East should be left alone to destroy each other just after the 9/11 attack. I didn't really mean it. Stupid anger overtakes us all at times; I love that Kirk's not above being... human.
That's one of the things about TOS that I like so much. The characters are not perfect, they have flaws and have good moments and bad moments...I'm not sure why Roddenberry was so against TUC, especially since Kirk had a great character arch in the film.
