Harry Potter Films, Deathly Hallows Preview

[USS KG5]

I know Voldemort isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed but why the hell would he keep all of his Horacruxes in a small area in the world?

The location of and choice of horcruxes is explained in the books, at some length.

Plus the Horcruxes have to be findable in order for Voldy to "rise again", he doesn't just appear out of the object, they contain a piece of his soul that can be used, rather like Wormtail did, to bring him back to life.

 

[cultcross]

No, it wasn't logical. You've decided it's the pairing you'd have liked to see, and that's absolutely your right, but it wasn't logic that lead to that, nor following the actual story in front of you - R/H has been there in subtle form since the beginning and in far less than subtle form since at least book 4. I can certainly see that people think H/G is out of the blue, but R/H was very clearly on the cards from the first time Rowling even introduces the idea of relationships.

Yes, because it's SOOOO obvious that the good girl, intelligent and well bred is the obvious choice to pair up with the irrational, slovenly, slothful ingrate with a bad temper, worse study habits, and "the emotional range of a teaspoon".

Yup, that's fairly true to life, actually. There is a lot of truth to 'opposites attract'. And Harry throughout the books is this character set apart, as much the legend as the person himself, Hermione and Ron share that ever-awkward position of 'sidekick' - they have far more in common with each other, in relation to the actual events that happen to them, than either does to Harry. They both have to be, not the Chosen One, but the Chosen One's friend.
Besides, even if you don't like the pairing, if you're happy to extract their personalities from the books, the foreshadowing of them coupling up is right there in the text too, from subtlety right through to full on open discussion of it. Ron is pretty clearly and openly into Hermione from at least book 4, which is to say, more than half the series.

Harry/Ginny have gone through two things together: jack and squat.

So him directly saving her in Book 2, and her being one of the most committed DA members in 5 was jack squat? There is also regular mention that Ginny hangs out with Harry and Ron in the holidays, ample time to get to know Harry outside of the fangirl bit.

Harry and Hermione, on the other hand, have been through Hell and back together. Repeatedly.

So have Hermione and Ron. They've shared more than her and Harry have - usually when Harry's having his big showdown moment, he's alone. Ron and Hermione share the task of getting him to those points.

 

[MNM]

Ron and Hermione share the task of getting him to those points.

Not equally after the second book though. Book one has the trio getting past all those magical traps to get the stone, contributing equally to the effort with Ron being the first to be removed due to the chess game, and Hermione continuing onwards with Harry for a while. This is equaled up in book two when Hermione is taken out relatively early due to the basilisk and it is Ron and Harry who go onwards, using Hermiones information to find where the Chamber is and Ron contributing to getting down there.

From book three onwards though, it can be shown that when one of the trio is removed from the adventure altogether, it is nearly always Ron, leaving Harry and Hermione alone to face whatever.

For example, Ron was no where to be seen (because he is holed up in the hospital wing) in the climax adventure of POA when it is Harry and Hermione jaunting back in time, or in book five when Harry and Hermione wander off during Rons big match so they can help Hagrid with something (which turns out to be Grawp) in the forest and share an adventure and trials there, and again in book five in the ministry of magic, the group of kids split up, Ron vanishing off with the Ginny and Luna to offscreen, while Hermione sticks with Harry and we the reader get to see their movements and actions (with Neville). Or in book seven, when the trio are on the Lord of the Rings "homage" Horocrux hunt, Ron is once again the one removed from the group via a strop and Harry and Hermione are left to face onwards alone for a while.

Two side notes from the above, for funness, are that:

1) In book seven, the key moment, when made to choose whether to go with Ron (her true love and all that) and support him, or stay and support Harry, Hermione immediately sides with Harry and even casts a shield charm around herself and him to seperate them from Ron, and...

2) when the group ran after blowing up the objects in the MOM (at the end of book five), Harry is specifially mentioned as reaching back and grabbing Hermione's robes, so he can pull her along and make sure she gets out with him. It could have been a good moment to show Harry actively doing something with Ginny (his pre-planned future girlfriend supposedly) and grabbing her robes and bringing her along with him, while Hermione and Ron are offscreen, or at the very least Rowling could have Harry reach back and randomly grab someone who turns out to be either Hermione or again Ginny, but she makes sure the reader sees Harry specifially moves to get Hermione.

 

[Takeru]

Plus the Horcruxes have to be findable in order for Voldy to "rise again", he doesn't just appear out of the object, they contain a piece of his soul that can be used, rather like Wormtail did, to bring him back to life.

Uhm, no. Voldemort was not brought back to life, he never died in the first place. Wormtail just restored his body, but no horcrux was needed for that, they don't have to be findable at all.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Yup, that's fairly true to life, actually. There is a lot of truth to 'opposites attract'.

No, it's fairly true to bad writing. Opposites may "attract" on a superficial level, but they don't work out long term. There has to be a basic compatability.

And Harry throughout the books is this character set apart, as much the legend as the person himself, Hermione and Ron share that ever-awkward position of 'sidekick'

Horsesh*t! They are the only two people who ever see the REAL Harry Potter. They're FRIENDS, not sidekicks.

- they have far more in common with each other, in relation to the actual events that happen to them, than either does to Harry.

No matter how many times you say this, it is not going to make it true.

Ron is pretty clearly and openly into Hermione from at least book 4, which is to say, more than half the series.

Ron can be "into" whomever he wants. The question is would an intelligent, well-bred young LADY like Hermione be drawn to a slovenly, slothful, fair-weather friend like MoRon?

Remember, this is the same person who nearly got her KILLED in Book 1 because he couldn't keep his frakking attitude to himself. Who continuously berates her about how she makes them study too much. Who tore her a new one in Book 3 over the Firebolt. Who went off on BOTH of them again in Book 4 with his jealous little snit fit about the Goblet. Who ultimately ABANDONED them in Book 7, arguably right when they needed his support the most.

Explain to me how that adds up to a package a good, smart girl like Hermoine would find appealing...

Harry/Ginny have gone through two things together: jack and squat.

So him directly saving her in Book 2, and her being one of the most committed DA members in 5 was jack squat?

Ginny was possessed or unconscious throughout the events in book 2. And her mere presence in the DA in Book 5 in no way makes her a close personal associate of Harry's.

There is also regular mention that Ginny hangs out with Harry and Ron in the holidays, ample time to get to know Harry outside of the fangirl bit.

Then why is there no MENTION of any feelings for her that could be construed as "romantic" in ANY sense prior to the "chest monster"? Which by the way is NOT a healthy desire.

And you still haven't addressed the Weasly Women's habit of "helping along" their intendeds...that's not a loving act. That's an act of obsession and control that frankly is no different than slipping them "roofies".

Harry and Hermione, on the other hand, have been through Hell and back together. Repeatedly.

So have Hermione and Ron. They've shared more than her and Harry have - usually when Harry's having his big showdown moment, he's alone. Ron and Hermione share the task of getting him to those points.

By that logic, MoRon has as much of a shot with Harry as anyone else, and certainly more than Stalker Girl Ginny, the Potions Princess.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

No matter how many times you say this, it is not going to make it true.

You should listen to yourself here.

Ron can be "into" whomever he wants. The question is would an intelligent, well-bred young LADY like Hermione be drawn to a slovenly, slothful, fair-weather friend like MoRon?

Hermione is hardly the perfect little darling you paint her to be and Ron is not as bad as you claim either. They both have their flaws, some are different, some are shared. Like a stubborn streak a mile wide, and a selective obliviousness. But they also have their strengths. Again, some are shared, while some aren't.

Oh, and stop saying "well bred", it's weird.

Remember, this is the same person who nearly got her KILLED in Book 1 because he couldn't keep his frakking attitude to himself.

Wow, I'd like to know how on earth you jumped so many steps to come to this conclusion.

Who continuously berates her about how she makes them study too much.

Harry feels the same way as Ron, he just can't be bothered to argue for himself.

Who tore her a new one in Book 3 over the Firebolt.

Again, Harry was just as, if not more, angry. So you're not making that convincing an argument that she should be with Harry instead.

Who ultimately ABANDONED them in Book 7, arguably right when they needed his support the most.

Under the influence of a powerful dark object that as soon as he got away from, he regretted his actions due to it, and ultimately went on to destroy said object.

Explain to me how that adds up to a package a good, smart girl like Hermoine would find appealing...

Gee, I don't know, because that's not the whole package?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Ron can be "into" whomever he wants. The question is would an intelligent, well-bred young LADY like Hermione be drawn to a slovenly, slothful, fair-weather friend like MoRon?

Hermione is hardly the perfect little darling you paint her to be (and stop saying "well bred", it's weird).

It is entirely accurate. Hermione as portrayed is a young lady of the upper-middle class. She has poise and manners, unlike MoRon.

Remember, this is the same person who nearly got her KILLED in Book 1 because he couldn't keep his frakking attitude to himself.

Wow, I'd like to know how on earth you jumped so many steps to come to this conclusion.

There was this little nuisance called a "troll". Surely you remember it. Had MoRon not been shooting his frakking mouth off, Hermione would not have been crying her eyes out in the girls' bathroom where said troll nearly killed her.

Harry feels the same way as Ron, he just can't be bothered to argue for himself.

Harry is not entirely innocent here, but at least he has an excuse, not wanting to lose a friend (having had precious few in his life).

Ron on the other hand, is being an ass (as is typical for him).

Under the influence of a powerful dark object that as soon as he got away from, he regretted his actions due to it, and ultimately went on to destroy said object.

Wasn't under any such influence in Book 1, Book 3, or Book 4 when he pulled the same type of temper-fit. It's a pattern with him.

Gee, I don't know, because that's not the whole package?

It's all he's ever shown us.

And you still haven't addressed the Weasly Women's habit of "helping along" their intendeds...that's not a loving act. That's an act of obsession and control that frankly is no different than slipping them "roofies".

Probably because this is so ridiculous it doesn't bear a proper response.

It's canon. Molly did it to Arthur. The author wrote it.

Ginny, the Potions Princess.

The what now?

As stated, Mommy did it to Daddy, and Ginny is her mother's daughter.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

For darkwing.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

You know, Darkwing does have some good, solid, objective points of criticism. But the overly absolutist language used to present those ideas doesn't exactly engender a whole lot of objective support.

As a case in point, I've no problem with the final pairings of the Potter saga (Harry/Ginny & Ron/Hermione) but I do see the objections some readers might have. Unfortunately, the vehement tone of Darkwing's posts do very little to convince me to change my point of view.

 

[DigificWriter]

As a person who, at the height of his Potter obsession (which has since died down considerably), was heavily involved in 'shipping' (not just of the canon couples, but certain non-canon couples as well), I really don't understand - and never have - the vehement hatred that exists between some of the various HP shipper 'teams'. I've long held the viewpoint that if someone chooses to ignore the 'ships' that JKR established, they have the right to do so, but they don't have the right to try and push their particular viewpoint(s) on others.

darkwing: Regarding your point about Hermione's social status, I've never gotten the feeling that she was especially 'well-to-do' (certainly not like the Malfoys or Blacks), and am genuinely curious as to how you formed that opinion. I'm not quite sure why you seem to have such a negative opinion of Ron, though.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

I really don't understand - and never have - the vehement hatred that exists between some of the various HP shipper 'teams'.

To be fair, you can find similar "debate" happening in every shipper fandom. The only thing that changes is the size of the factions that express such vehemence.

I've long held the viewpoint that if someone chooses to ignore the 'ships' that JKR established, they have the right to do so, but they don't have the right to try and push their particular viewpoint(s) on others.

Agreed. Hell, I was (and I guess still am) a big Harry/Luna shipper, but I've refrained from talking about it in this thread because well, it didn't actually happen so it doesn't have any particular baring. And despite my criticisms of the Harry/Ginny relationship as presented, I can still understand why it happened, and don't hold it against it's fans or JKR, other than from a writing standpoint.

 

[Neroon]

Is the shipping by fans of the Harry Potter universe any worse or more intense than that of say "Enterprise"? No matter where it happens, I am surprised at the energy expended and offense taken over fictional characters in their relationships. It's as if we pour too much of ourselves into the story to the point where we perceive criticism of said characters as tantamount to attacks on us.

 

[DigificWriter]

The level of vehemence associated with 'shipping' in the HP fandom varies depending on the particular 'ship' a fan or group of fans happens to be 'sailing', but I have, in my personal experience, seen some quite heated debates and arguments spring up amongst fans of 'opposing' 'ships' (a good example would be the James Potter/Lily Evans and Lily Evans/Severus Snape 'ships'; argument between these two 'shipping' communities had [and very likely still has, although I can't say this with 100% certainty given that I haven't been actively involved in the HP 'shipping' community for some time] a tendency to get very heated at times, primarily because there was so little light shed on the particulars of how the Lily/James relationship came to be given the fact that, earlier on in their lives, Lily absolutely hated James).

 

[Rowan Sjet]

It's as if we pour too much of ourselves into the story to the point where we perceive criticism of said characters as tantamount to attacks on us.

I think it's exactly this. Or at least, if not an attack on us, it's an attack on our "friends" and the shared values.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Per this thread, I started reading the books on Friday and am now half way through Azkaban.

One thing I've noticed is how blatantly Hermione/Ron is pushed on the reader. I'd never call my self a shipper, but I do remember how I seemed to think way-back-when, that's how things were headed.

The first thing that stands how is how, post troll scene, Ron is ALWAYS the first to react/get mad at Hermione's peril (usually induced by Malfoy). And half the time he is the only one who does so as Harry doesn't react at all--all.

About the troll scene, it should be pointed out that it was Ron, after all, who actually vanquished the troll and thus saved Hermione. Really, Harry was kind of useless.

Then there is the obvious "ball and chain" type relationship JKR tried to set up between Ron and Hermione. It's just another example of an old archetype she used to get her point across.

Also, while not otherwise very important, it should still be noted that the first person Hermione ever speaks to is Ron, not Harry.

Another thing I've noticed is, when ever Ron actually seems to do something good or positive it s the direct result of Hermione's influence and not Harry's. In fact, Harry seems to pretty much just have a negative effect on him.

About Harry and Ginny, it's never been a big deal. To me, it's seems like JKR catering to the bigger number of fans.

However, she did write how she "loves" Riddle in the diary, and the main point of CoS is how Harry and Riddle are the same.

And Ginny is the first (and really, only) person Harry rescues in the old, "Hero saves girl, hero gets girl" sense. She was the damsel in distress; Hermione never really was.

It's also hinted at, especially through the later books, that Ginny is Harry's magical equal--one can infer this is because she is the seventh child and there is a lot of reference to the importance of the number seven throughout the books. She is also his equal (if not better) at Quidditch. Apparently bit that was left-out of the Epilogue has her going on to play professionally.

As far as Harry's sudden fawning of Ginny, I actually think that's fairly normal. I also think for him to have that realization of Hermione is not normal.

It's pretty rare for a guy to suddenly go gaga over a girl he's spent his life having and intimate, but strictly platonic "sisterly" relationship with. After a while the portrait of that person becomes so etched into the mind's eye in such a certain way that it's hard to erase it and start over.

On the other hand, to have someone you're friendly with but don't no so well that you aren't completely aware of all her thoughts, idiosyncrasies, etc and experience something that makes you see her in new light, really isn't all that unheard of. Now, for the story's sake, it might not have been the best way to go, but it certainly isn't unprecedented.

 

[cultcross]

Per this thread, I started reading the books on Friday and am now half way through Azkaban.

One thing I've noticed is how blatantly Hermione/Ron is pushed on the reader. I'd never call my self a shipper, but I do remember how I seemed to think way-back-when, that's how things were headed.

The first thing that stands how is how, post troll scene, Ron is ALWAYS the first to react/get mad at Hermione's peril (usually induced by Malfoy). And half the time he is the only one who does so as Harry doesn't react at all--all.

About the troll scene, it should be pointed out that it was Ron, after all, who actually vanquished the troll and thus saved Hermione. Really, Harry was kind of useless.

Then there is the obvious "ball and chain" type relationship JKR tried to set up between Ron and Hermione. It's just another example of an old archetype she used to get her point across.

Also, while not otherwise very important, it should still be noted that the first person Hermione ever speaks to is Ron, not Harry.

Another thing I've noticed is, when ever Ron actually seems to do something good or positive it s the direct result of Hermione's influence and not Harry's. In fact, Harry seems to pretty much just have a negative effect on him.

About Harry and Ginny, it's never been a big deal. To me, it's seems like JKR catering to the bigger number of fans.

However, she did write how she "loves" Riddle in the diary, and the main point of CoS is how Harry and Riddle are the same.

And Ginny is the first (and really, only) person Harry rescues in the old, "Hero saves girl, hero gets girl" sense. She was the damsel in distress; Hermione never really was.

It's also hinted at, especially through the later books, that Ginny is Harry's magical equal--one can infer this is because she is the seventh child and there is a lot of reference to the importance of the number seven throughout the books. She is also his equal (if not better) at Quidditch. Apparently bit that was left-out of the Epilogue has her going on to play professionally.

As far as Harry's sudden fawning of Ginny, I actually think that's fairly normal. I also think for him to have that realization of Hermione is not normal.

It's pretty rare for a guy to suddenly go gaga over a girl he's spent his life having and intimate, but strictly platonic "sisterly" relationship with. After a while the portrait of that person becomes so etched into the mind's eye in such a certain way that it's hard to erase it and start over.

On the other hand, to have someone you're friendly with but don't no so well that you aren't completely aware of all her thoughts, idiosyncrasies, etc and experience something that makes you see her in new light, really isn't all that unheard of. Now, for the story's sake, it might not have been the best way to go, but it certainly isn't unprecedented.

Thank you. QFT.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

About the troll scene, it should be pointed out that it was Ron, after all, who actually vanquished the troll and thus saved Hermione. Really, Harry was kind of useless.

And Ron saving the day using the very spell that Hermione had been correcting him on earlier, which started that days spat, is also fairly significant.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

For darkwing.

So all you got is name-calling and an "appeal to authority" (in this case, a very SHAKY authority indeed), right? That IS what you're saying here...

My objections go way beyond the "ships" (though those are a big problem).


Rowlings other crimes against good plot logic include:

• Repeated deus ex machina devices that only serve one plot purpose and totally blow holes in the existing story fabric with their implications (veritaserum, pensives, Dumbledoor's authority in the WW)​
• At a minimum, abysmally poor choices on the part of characters who are supposed to be smarter than that (leaving Harry in Durskaban and never checking up on his wellfare, continuing to send Harry back every summer despite knowing that he was being abused there). For that matter, just about ANY decision that was made by a supposed authority in Harry's life was quite frankly criminally negligent at best.​
• Pathetically poor "redemptions" of characters that have spent 7 books being absolute a**es (Snape, Malfoy). Snape was and is a frakking bully and a scumbag that never should have been anywhere NEAR a classroom due to his utter immaturity and generally bad attitude. Then there's his culpability in the deaths of Harry's parents. But he "loved" Lilly, so it's all OK. The less said about Mal-ferret the better.​

darkwing: Regarding your point about Hermione's social status, I've never gotten the feeling that she was especially 'well-to-do' (certainly not like the Malfoys or Blacks), and am genuinely curious as to how you formed that opinion.

Re Hermione's "status": Perhaps not "rich" (as in Blacks or Malfoys), but her parents are both dentists/dental surgeons. Even if they were both primarily working for the NHS, they would be considered solidly middle-class/upper middle-class. They have money to send their daughter to a private boarding school, as well as take trips overseas every summer.

Hermione's mannerisms support that status. She is somewhat prim, poised and well-mannered in a way that bespeaks of that sort of background.

I'm not quite sure why you seem to have such a negative opinion of Ron, though.

I don't see how anyone can have much of a good opinion of Ron. As presented he is continuously rude in his personal habits (such as at the table), he continuously belittles Hermione's studiousness, he constantly attempts to get Harry to slag off on his studies despite knowing how urgent it is that Harry learn as much as possible as fast as possible.

His other bad traits include a particularly nasty combination of bad temper (Book 3, Book 4, and especially Book 7 stand out) and being a "fair weather friend" (same books).

He is, in short: slovenly, faithless, needlessly rude, short tempered and shallow.

 

[MNM]

Really, Harry was kind of useless.

Except for the part where he physically tackled the Troll, distracting it enough by hanging around its neck (an act described in the book as equally "very brave" and "very stupid") and shoving his wand up its nose, to cause the Troll to lose focus on Hermione for long enough to give Ron the opportunity to cast the spell in the first place of course...

 

[darkwing_duck1]

About the troll scene, it should be pointed out that it was Ron, after all, who actually vanquished the troll and thus saved Hermione. Really, Harry was kind of useless.

And Ron saving the day using the very spell that Hermione had been correcting him on earlier, which started that days spat, is also fairly significant.

A spat that should never have occurred. Ron hardly deserves credit for solving a problem HE ultimately caused.